Quest M3 on order
Hank Perkins
I am new here but not new to roasting. as of December 2009 I had been
roasting for 10 years using one coffee for drip only. Most of that
roasting was using an original Hot Top. It finally bit the dust and I
ordered a Behmor. The Behmor did an ok job until we got a new
espresso maker. For the last 4 months I have struggled and now have a
Quest on order.
I have a few questions:
Roaster Mods: I have seen multiple thermocouple installations on
these including Data loggers and PIDS. I can use advice on were to
purcahse these, what to purchase, how and where to mount, and how to
program.
Heat Gun: I have read the thread on Home Barista about the heat gun.
This application looks very logical for me. I have sourced the gun
but am unsure on the how to roast with application questions.
Roast Profiles: There are a couple here, where else should I look?
Ventilation: How have you guys handled this?
Thanks So Much!!
Hank
Arpi
Congratulations and welcome aboard. Here are some links and
information that may help you.
Quick made manual to gather info:
http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/q3manual.doc
Quest m3 Thermocouples and adapters:
http://users.rcn.com/erics/Quest_Thermocouples_01.pdf
price and contact email for thermocouples:
http://users.rcn.com/erics/Pricing_Inventory_Ordering.pdf
Data Logger:
Omega model HH806AU (with AC adapter) http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=hh806
the usb cable is standard mini-USB but it comes with the software:
HH800-SW (see end of page)
That meter is compatible with the artisan software:
http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/artisan00029.pyw
a new version easier to install will be available in the future
PID
Any pid will work. In my experience, ramp-soak pid modes are not
practical in this drum roaster. Just set a temperature and use on/off
switch.
If you want to use Artisan software then you need a Fuji PID with
RS485 and modbus protocol
PXR3 (cheaper and recommended):
http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=4714&gclid=CK--rZXwwaUCFYLd4AodxhqBZA
PXG4 (more expensive but it can store like 5 temps, many modes, better
control, etc): http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=17396
If you go the PID route, You need either 2 Fuji PIDs; or any other PID
(any other brand) plus the Omega HH806 meter
Note: Fuji PIDs are not friendly to changes of temperature by computer
because they use non volatile memory rated to 10000 writes. Therefore
changes made by software should be minimized to lengthen the life of
the PID. The good news is that in the the Quest m3 you don't need to
be changing temperature all the time. A simple mechanical switch can
turn ON/OFF the PID.
The pid modification schematics:
http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/PIDmodificationQuestm3SQUEMATIC.JPG
http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/PIDmodificationQuestm3SCHEMATIC2.JPG
Ventilation:
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/exhaust-in-quest-m3-roaster-t12631.html
There is a gasket you can put between the roaster and the exhaust
metal flange: Rutland Grapho Glass stove gasket 5/8" tape
Glue the gasket on the flange side (not the roaster side).
with that gasket in place, there is no smoke coming out at all,
otherwise little smoke can creep up in the joint.
How to roast with this heat gun:
http://www.home-barista.com/home-roasting/heatgun-upgrade-for-quest-m3-roaster-t15440-20.html#p185707
For my heat gun model, I use it as follows (there are many
possibilities):
2 cups of green beans (~300 grams). After dry phase (~ 5 mins after
putting the green beans), turn HG ON at 750F #2 fan. When 1C starts
use HG to 750F #1 fan. Wait till end.
Cheers
Hank Perkins
Thanks,
Hank
Hank Perkins
Questions:
In some pictures I see a box with a PID mounted on it next to your
roaster. I see some switches.
What are the functions of the switches?
How is all of this wired together, Pictures? interfaces with the
roaster (other than thermocouples)? Computer?
How you manage a roast with the PID, DataLogger, Switches, Etc. It
does not look like a turn on roast dump cool operation.
I have an old PC will your S/W run on it? (Mac guy for the last 4 years)
And thanks for everything.
I expect to be able to contribute with roast profiles once I get this
up and running.
Hank
Marcio Carneiro
Just to add some experience from a new owner of a Quest M3 while you
decide what to add to our roaster.
Yesterday I've tested the TC and adaptors from EricS. Great! But I 'm
using a digital termometer for BT and a multimeter that has type-K TC
input for the MET.
So, speaking about that, another option for measuring, interfacing and
PIDing ;-) is the TC4-shield board for the Arduino controller
available from Jim Galt. The thread is this one:
http://www.homeroasters.org/php/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=1774&rowstart=575
But is big. The board is open-source (fair to note that the project
starter was Bill) and Jim has them for $6. You have to build it and
the parts plus shipping should cost around $30:
http://code.google.com/p/tc4-shield/
I'll try this soon and I hope to have good news about it. At first,
I'll interface it with Rafael's software, just have to write the code
to read the format from the Bourbon software they did for the Arduino.
As there are 4 TC inputs, I think I'll log BT, MET and the ET (the one
they drill at the factory, inside the drum, away from the beans).
It would be nice to measure power and fan or to control power and fan
from the Arduino so it can be measured - and later played using PID.
Márcio.
Hank Perkins
Thanks. This is way over my head. I have a friend how is an engineer who loves my coffee now and is more than willing to help. I will forward this to him for comments. Best thing he works with this kind of stuff all the time.
Thanks,
Hank Perkins
Perkins Technical Services, Inc.
Work 256-539-6787
Cell 256-426-0543
Arpi
between original factory manual mode, off, or pid (down=manual
original Q3power, center = OFF, up = PID controlled power). The power
switch is pictured in the schematics (it shows how to connect it). It
gives the option to go back to manual mode just in case.
This is how it is wired:
PC computer - RS485 to RS232 usb converter HXSP-2108G. This converter
comes with a tiny board: two data wires (+ one ground wire connected
to only the converter board; that is it is a two wire cable with a
ground shield. The ground shield is only connected at the converter
board)
The two wires from the converter board connect to the two PIDs (I
connect one after the other in series. This is fine)
The PIDs are autonomous and work without the help of the computer, but
they can respond to commands from the computer because they are always
listening.
The PIDs have each six wires coming out: two for the thermocouple, two
for 110/220V power, and two for the RS485 network. The pins are
numbered at the back and the pin numbers can be found in the PID
documentation.
I don't roast with the data logger. I personally only use the PID.
The data logger was added to the software so that it is more universal
and open to other people. Right now the software is also being
expanded to include the Omega HH506RA. But this meter lacks an AC
adapter which makes it maybe less desired for long roast periods.
The way I roast is as follows:
START
Turn on roaster selecting PID power control. Roaster fan setting #6.
Let it warm up ~ 10 or 20 minutes. Temperature setting for the PID is
always constant at 540F ET, but BT is always changing. PID controls
only ET. This is very convenient and where the PID shines because at
this temperature the beans never get burn flavors. I don't have to
make any adjustments to the roaster.
Drop green beans (300 grams) and wait ~ 5 minutes (dry phase)
Start heat gun at 750F # fan
Wait till 1C then reduce fan to #1
Wait till desired end point
END
So as you can see in the example above, my only action was to turn ON
the heat gun and later the fan of the heat gun down to #1 (2 actions).
As of this moment, there is a Mac version of the Artisan software
being compiled by Marco Luther but it is not available yet.
Cheers
On Nov 27, 5:53 pm, Hank Perkins <hankperk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Arpi,
>
> Questions:
>
> In some pictures I see a box with a PID mounted on it next to your
> roaster. I see some switches.
>
> What are the functions of the switches?
>
> How is all of this wired together, Pictures? interfaces with the
> roaster (other than thermocouples)? Computer?
>
> How you manage a roast with the PID, DataLogger, Switches, Etc. It
> does not look like a turn on roast dump cool operation.
>
> I have an old PC will your S/W run on it? (Mac guy for the last 4 years)
>
> And thanks for everything.
>
> I expect to be able to contribute with roast profiles once I get this
> up and running.
>
> Hank
>
> > Hello Hank.
>
> > Congratulations and welcome aboard. Here are some links and
> > information that may help you.
>
> > Quick made manual to gather info:
>
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/q3manual.doc
>
> > Quest m3 Thermocouples and adapters:
>
> >http://users.rcn.com/erics/Quest_Thermocouples_01.pdf
>
> > price and contact email for thermocouples:
> >http://users.rcn.com/erics/Pricing_Inventory_Ordering.pdf
>
> > Data Logger:
>
> > HH800-SW (see end of page)
>
> > That meter is compatible with the artisan software:
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/artisan00029.pyw
> > a new version easier to install will be available in the future
>
> > PID
>
> > Any pid will work. In my experience, ramp-soak pid modes are not
> > practical in this drum roaster. Just set a temperature and use on/off
> > switch.
> > If you want to use Artisan software then you need a Fuji PID with
> > RS485 and modbus protocol
>
> > PXR3 (cheaper and recommended):
> > control, etc):http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=17396
>
> > If you go the PID route, You need either 2 Fuji PIDs; or any other PID
> > (any other brand) plus the Omega HH806 meter
>
> > Note: Fuji PIDs are not friendly to changes of temperature by computer
> > because they use non volatile memory rated to 10000 writes. Therefore
> > changes made by software should be minimized to lengthen the life of
> > the PID. The good news is that in the the Quest m3 you don't need to
> > be changing temperature all the time. A simple mechanical switch can
> > turn ON/OFF the PID.
>
> > The pid modification schematics:
>
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/PIDmodificationQuestm3SQUEMATIC.JPG
>
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/PIDmodificationQuestm3SCHEMATIC2.JPG
>
> > Ventilation:
>
> > There is a gasket you can put between the roaster and the exhaust
> > metal flange: Rutland Grapho Glass stove gasket 5/8" tape
> > Glue the gasket on the flange side (not the roaster side).
> > with that gasket in place, there is no smoke coming out at all,
> > otherwise little smoke can creep up in the joint.
>
> > How to roast with this heat gun:
>
Arpi
I recently talked to Jim about making the Arduino board compatible
with the Artisan software. It is possible that it will happen at some
point in time but not right now. We haven't started anything yet. I
have limited time and this is only a hobby for me, but with time and
patience I think it is possible.
Cheers
On Nov 28, 2:13 am, Marcio Carneiro <marcio.carne...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi, Hank.
>
> Just to add some experience from a new owner of a Quest M3 while you
> decide what to add to our roaster.
>
> Yesterday I've tested the TC and adaptors from EricS. Great! But I 'm
> using a digital termometer for BT and a multimeter that has type-K TC
> input for the MET.
>
> So, speaking about that, another option for measuring, interfacing and
> PIDing ;-) is the TC4-shield board for the Arduino controller
> available from Jim Galt. The thread is this one:
>
> But is big. The board is open-source (fair to note that the project
> starter was Bill) and Jim has them for $6. You have to build it and
> the parts plus shipping should cost around $30:
>
> http://code.google.com/p/tc4-shield/
>
> I'll try this soon and I hope to have good news about it. At first,
> I'll interface it with Rafael's software, just have to write the code
> to read the format from the Bourbon software they did for the Arduino.
> As there are 4 TC inputs, I think I'll log BT, MET and the ET (the one
> they drill at the factory, inside the drum, away from the beans).
>
> It would be nice to measure power and fan or to control power and fan
> from the Arduino so it can be measured - and later played using PID.
>
> Márcio.
>
Marcio Carneiro
> Hi Marcio.
>
> I recently talked to Jim about making the Arduino board compatible
> with the Artisan software. It is possible that it will happen at some
> point in time but not right now. We haven't started anything yet. I
> have limited time and this is only a hobby for me, but with time and
> patience I think it is possible.
Hi, Rafael.
I'll try to make at least a function to Artisan read the serial output
of the Bourbon software that they've done for the Arduino. Probably
I'll add ET probe (the one inside the drum) besides BT and MET. I'll
send you the code when I got it right! ;-)
Márcio.
zb
If you want, try to make independent from Artisan, like for example:
http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/HH806AU-serial-communications.py
Then I could incorporate it (there some changes needed in a few places). The only thingy is that the arduino software is set up right now to always send info (doesn't listen). So that would require deeper changes in the way the artisan software works. All other devices right now work by listening commands and the timer is run by software (not the other way around). So, right now, it is not straight forward.
Cheers
--- On Sun, 11/28/10, Marcio Carneiro <marcio....@gmail.com> wrote:
Hank Perkins
I have zero experience with PIDs but I do understand the PID accepts temp readings and sends signals to a relay to turn it on and off depending on the temp reading.
How does the PID / relay connect to the roaster fan and the roaster heat? I assume one PID / relay for each? how do you set the temps to control these?
I can visualize the PC-data logger-RS845 network-PID's operate.
How do you control Rate of Rise here or did you program the PID's for that?
How do you keep the PIDs working together?
Thanks,
Hank
zb
I'll be happy to answer the questions as best as I can. But I am learning and don't know everything. It is up to you to adapt your roast to what you think it is best. Don't count me as an expert :)
> How does the PID / relay connect to the roaster fan and the
> roaster heat? I assume one PID / relay for each?
> how do you set the temps to control these?
First, let me correct one of my previous answers.In my previous reply I told you that there are only six wires connected to the PID. That is not always true. There can be 6 or 8 wires (8 wires: 2 extra wires for controlling the SSR Solid State Relay). If just want to read the temperature (like BT), 6 wires. If want to read ET and control ET then 8 wires. The BT pid is a dummy PID. It doesn't control anything, only reads.
In my setup, the controlling PID only controls ET, the fan is manually controlled by a knob on the side of the roaster. The temperature is automatically controlled/adjusted by the ET PID.
> How do you control Rate of Rise here or did you program the
> PID's for that?
The rate of raise is difficult to control by a PID is it is a drum roaster (air roaster respond much faster). My PID is always set up to 540F.
In the dry phase I control the rate of change by selecting a drop temperature paired with a batch weight. Dry phase is not as important as the other phases. Ideally, I aim for 300F in 5 mins.
In the mid phase I don't really control the rate of change. I break away from profile theory here. For mid-dark roasts, I want to climb as fast as possible but without burning the beans. That way, there is humidity left in the beans necessary for chemical changes responsible for flavor. If this time is too long, the humidity escapes and the flavor doesn't come out as good. This phase is not as important as the finish phase.
In the finish phase, I aim to get 10F per minute. Given the batch weight and heat input, it varies. In my setup, I leave everything the same but I turn the heat gun fan to a setting of #1. This gives me an average of 10F per minute.
All these times can change if you want light roast or dark roasts. For light roasts you want to cut power before 1C (finish phase starts earlier and it is longer)
> How do you keep the PIDs working together?
The pids share the same 2 pair of wires (it is a RS485 network). Each command has an embedded unit id. A pid only answers when its id matches with the embedded id inside the command. To read both temperatures ET and BT, I have to send a command for BT, read it the answer. Then send another command for ET and read the second answer.
Cheers
--- On Sun, 11/28/10, Hank Perkins <hankp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: Hank Perkins <hankp...@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [QuestM3] Re: Quest M3 on order
Hank Perkins
I notice you are located in Baltimore. I travel up there regularly.
Any coffee shops I should hit in the Baltimore area?
Thanks!!
Arpi
These are two links (from better to worse):
http://www.sprocoffee.com/ at Towson + Hampden
http://www.baltcoffee.com/ at Timonium (big supply of different
roasted beans)
It isn't a hot area coffee kind of town. The distances from downtown
can be large. Downtown you have the typical PaneraBread and StarBucks.
Then you have small coffee shops sometimes with espresso machines but
they are geared towards lattes.
Cheers
On Nov 28, 9:33 pm, Hank Perkins <hankperk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Apri,
>
> I notice you are located in Baltimore. I travel up there regularly.
> Any coffee shops I should hit in the Baltimore area?
>
> Thanks!!
>
> > Hello Hank.
>
> > Congratulations and welcome aboard. Here are some links and
> > information that may help you.
>
> > Quick made manual to gather info:
>
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/q3manual.doc
>
> > Quest m3 Thermocouples and adapters:
>
> >http://users.rcn.com/erics/Quest_Thermocouples_01.pdf
>
> > price and contact email for thermocouples:
> >http://users.rcn.com/erics/Pricing_Inventory_Ordering.pdf
>
> > Data Logger:
>
> > HH800-SW (see end of page)
>
> > That meter is compatible with the artisan software:
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/artisan00029.pyw
> > a new version easier to install will be available in the future
>
> > PID
>
> > Any pid will work. In my experience, ramp-soak pid modes are not
> > practical in this drum roaster. Just set a temperature and use on/off
> > switch.
> > If you want to use Artisan software then you need a Fuji PID with
> > RS485 and modbus protocol
>
> > PXR3 (cheaper and recommended):
> > control, etc):http://www.instrumart.com/Product.aspx?ProductID=17396
>
> > If you go the PID route, You need either 2 Fuji PIDs; or any other PID
> > (any other brand) plus the Omega HH806 meter
>
> > Note: Fuji PIDs are not friendly to changes of temperature by computer
> > because they use non volatile memory rated to 10000 writes. Therefore
> > changes made by software should be minimized to lengthen the life of
> > the PID. The good news is that in the the Quest m3 you don't need to
> > be changing temperature all the time. A simple mechanical switch can
> > turn ON/OFF the PID.
>
> > The pid modification schematics:
>
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/PIDmodificationQuestm3SQUEMATIC.JPG
>
> >http://questm3.googlegroups.com/web/PIDmodificationQuestm3SCHEMATIC2.JPG
>
> > Ventilation:
>
> > There is a gasket you can put between the roaster and the exhaust
> > metal flange: Rutland Grapho Glass stove gasket 5/8" tape
> > Glue the gasket on the flange side (not the roaster side).
> > with that gasket in place, there is no smoke coming out at all,
> > otherwise little smoke can creep up in the joint.
>
> > How to roast with this heat gun:
>
Hank Perkins
went to SPRO this morning. WOW! Lots of different brewing methods,
lots of specialty coffees. I got to meet Jay the owner. Great guy.
Great staff, great coffee. I may drive down from Abredeen in the
morning for a return visit.
Hank