Personal Recommendations For Qubes Laptop

[Liam]

Hi all,
I have seen the Qubes Hardware Compatibility List: http://qubes-os.org/trac/wiki/HCL but am seeking personal recommendations and feedback from Qubes users for a new good quality but affordable brand name I7 laptop with VT-x and VT-d (including Bios support), 15 inch screen or above, ideally with both VGA and HDMI out, USB 3 and a DVD burner, which with minimal fuss works well with Qubes. TPM would be nice, but not mission critical. It also must have the touchpad mostly central to the keyboard... not ridiculously set to the far left where you can unintentionally keep touching/tapping it while typing.

I'm not particularly interested in Samsung's (due to past UEFI issues) or Sony's (bad personal experiences). Dell or HP may be ok, but one also wonders which companies the NSA has dragged into bed with them. I would still choose them over the Chinese based Lenovo though. Alienware (owned by Dell) generally have awesome stuff, but likely also outside of my price range. Ordering will be done online with delivery to Australia. If I absolutely have to I could get it shipped to the USA and then sent on to me, but this is far from ideal and I would really like to have an international warranty with it too.

Any feedback, suggestions or recommendations would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Liam

-- 
If genuine knowledge requires absolute certainty, then we know very little.

[Cb]

I think given the specificity of your needs and personal preferences, you're probably going to just have to slog through laptop reviews and specs yourself to figure out what works.

That said, ThinkPads have often been popular in the Linux world, because they are heavily Intel based and Intel tends to support open source with drivers better than others. And these days ThinkPads aren't that expensive. If you're not gaming or doing other 3-D graphics instensive processes, you can get a system with an Intel CPU, graphics card, and network adapter and it ought to be pretty well supported by Linux. (Although if you want a better graphics card, ThinkPads have those too.) The T series ThinkPads are generally the most highly regarded, but the other ones I think are good also .

If cost is a significant issue, I've also had a lot of luck buying used laptops from eBay. Just be careful it's a well regarded seller. A year old laptop usually is pretty close in performance to the newest ones. But the drop in value is precipitous, once the laptop is no longer new.

[Zrubecz Laszlo]

On 27 November 2013 22:54, Liam <lia...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have seen the Qubes Hardware Compatibility List:
> http://qubes-os.org/trac/wiki/HCL but am seeking personal recommendations
> and feedback from Qubes users for a new good quality but affordable brand
> name I7 laptop with VT-x and VT-d (including Bios support), 15 inch screen
> or above, ideally with both VGA and HDMI out, USB 3 and a DVD burner, which
> with minimal fuss works well with Qubes. TPM would be nice, but not mission
> critical. It also must have the touchpad mostly central to the keyboard...
> not ridiculously set to the far left where you can unintentionally keep
> touching/tapping it while typing.

The sad thing about the personal experience is if I can suggest any
modell you probably can't find that one in stores...

But still I can only suggest what I'm already tested:

* Fujitsu S751
This was really fine for Qubes, everithing was worked great
(the onboard 3G modem which way not installed on my machine)


* Dell E6430
This is also really good one. The only issu I have with the nVidia
Optimus wich is not well supported then I'm not using it currently.
(but without the optimus, I cant use the DVI outputs which are only
available whith a docking station.)
And I'm never tried the HDMI


Ohh, and both machine was shipped with i5 CPU not i7, but it is really
makes any difference regarding the price :)


--
Zrubi

[Liam]

> I think given the specificity of your needs and personal preferences,
> you're probably going to just have to slog through laptop reviews and
> specs yourself to figure out what works.
>

Given the rather epic struggle it can be to find a (VT-d especially)
fully compatible notebook as discussed in Advice On Finding A VT-d
Capable Notebook:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/qubes-users/Sz0Nuhi4N0o/ZtpJdoc0OY8J
and the fact that the current Hardware Compatibility List mostly lists
systems which are no longer available new, I had hoped someone might be
able to recommend a fully compatible notebook which is still available
new. Oh well, worst case scenario I might have to test a few in stores
myself with Qubes on a USB.

> That said, ThinkPads have often been popular in the Linux world,
> because they are heavily Intel based and Intel tends to support open
> source with drivers better than others. And these days ThinkPads
> aren't that expensive. If you're not gaming or doing other 3-D
> graphics instensive processes, you can get a system with an Intel CPU,
> graphics card, and network adapter and it ought to be pretty well
> supported by Linux. (Although if you want a better graphics card,
> ThinkPads have those too.) The T series ThinkPads are generally the
> most highly regarded, but the other ones I think are good also .
>

Ok. Thanks for the feedback re Thinkpads. Makes sense :-)

> If cost is a significant issue, I've also had a lot of luck buying
> used laptops from eBay. Just be careful it's a well regarded seller. A
> year old laptop usually is pretty close in performance to the newest
> ones. But the drop in value is precipitous, once the laptop is no
> longer new.

> --
True... I could always buy a known Qubes compatible model second hand as
listed on the HCL. I would still prefer a new one if possible though,
but I really don't want to find out by trial and error that although the
hardware supports VT-d the Bios does not enable it.

It would be really cool to be able to buy one preinstalled with Qubes.
If only...

[Cb]

I would be really surprised if a Thinkpad, especially a T series one, had a Intel processor with VT-d and did not allow you to enable it in the BIOS (given the general level of nerditude amongst T series users). I also think that if there is a laptop in the Qubes wiki that's supported, like the T430 or T430s, then it's a good bet that the updated newest version T440, T440s, and T440p support it also. But, I don't want to make any promises.

You could surf over to the Thinkpad forums (http://forum.thinkpads.com/) and just ask people who actually have the model you're interested in if VT-d is enabled in the BIOS. Also there are a lot of pretty sophisticated users in the notebookreview forums that could probably answer questions about a specific model.

One thing I noticed to keep in mind, some i5 processors support VT-d and other's done. It seems like the lower clock speed i5s don't all support VT-d, but the higher ones do. I guess it's just disabled in some that way for product differentiation, since I assume VT-d is baked into the design of all i5 processors. I know you said you want i7, but anyway, just a note to double check, once you're settled on a particular model laptop.

Lastly, unless there's some feature you're just dying to have on a new laptop or you absolutely can't live without a warranty, I just don't see the point anymore in buying the latest and greatest model. The CPU differences from a year old model are minimal, but you pay a huge premium for it. And a lot of year old Thinkpads are still under warranty, so you could look for one of those on eBay also.

But that's just me. You may not be as cost senstive as I am.

[bjarne....@gmail.com]

That was just my idea, when I was told that T410 and T420 were outdated, so I got a T440p 20AN instead. It has a TPM chip. And the BIOS can activate VT, but it is not very specific. Is it VT-x and VT-d? Unfortunately, the script qubes-hcl-report tells me:
VT-x : Active
VT-d : Inactive

So, what should I try? Updating BIOS? Or does it require a newer kernel? I am only going to update the kernel if I know it helps.

[Hakisho Nukama]

The chipset for the T440p should support VT-d, if it is indeed a QM87
for every model.
Does the CPU support VT-d also? Check ark.intel.com for your model.
(i.e. i5-4300M, i5-4330M, i7-4600M, i7-4800MQ, i7-4900MQ should do)
Does the vendor implement VT-d correctly in their BIOS?
If so, you should be able to use it. If not, you're out of luck.

Maybe we should initiate a campaign to bring vendors to produce some good
laptops. IOMMU and ECC-RAM are on my wish-list.

Best Regards.
Hakisho Nukama

[Bjarne]

Or just explain what is inside. I expected to be safe with an i7-4710MQ inside Lenovo T440p. I was mistaken. It should have been an i7-4710HQ. My BRIX Pro runs very well with VT-d active, but it dosn't have a TPM chip. My expensive T440p has a TPM chip, but it runs slowly and unsafe without VT-d.
I should appreciate very much if we could find a PC that has both VT-d and TPM, and which is not out of production.

[cprise]

On 10/04/14 15:15, Bjarne wrote:
> Or just explain what is inside. I expected to be safe with an
> i7-4710MQ inside Lenovo T440p. I was mistaken. It should have been an
> i7-4710HQ. My BRIX Pro runs very well with VT-d active, but it dosn't
> have a TPM chip. My expensive T440p has a TPM chip, but it runs slowly
> and unsafe without VT-d. I should appreciate very much if we could
> find a PC that has both VT-d and TPM, and which is not out of production.

I don't think VT-d is considered a feature that sells units in the eyes
of PC marketing execs; Its something you have to research before buying
a particular configuration. This is also the reason why models that
/can/ support VT-d often don't have a CPU that supports it because
almost no one (to this date) will look for that feature and so the mfg
can make a better margin of profit by selling a cheaper CPU part. When I
shopped for my T430s, most of these at the mass retailers contained the
i5-3210M CPU, which lacks VT-d. Whenever I did find a T430s with an
i5-3320M that supports VT-d there was usually something wrong with the
price or the other features. I had to order direct from Lenovo, using
their configuration tool, to get all the features I wanted at a decent
price.

Have you considered returning your T440p and getting another one?

[bjarne....@gmail.com]

Yes, but I erased the disk with Windows 7. I chosed this particular netstore because they gave specifications that includet the trusted platform module chip. They actually have the more expensive Lenovo ThinkPad W540 20BG which, according to the shop specifications, has an i7-4810MQ processor. I have followed the advice to look it up at ark.intel.com. Yes, it does support VT-d. The same page also states that i7-4810MQ is compatible with the three chipsets: QM87, HM87, and HM86. I have now looked all 3 chipsets up at ark.intel.com. All 3 chipsets have VT-d according to the specifications.

So, am I safe to assume that ThinkPad W540 20GB will support VT-d?

[cprise]

I would expect any current model Thinkpad (not Ideapad) with a VT-d
capable CPU to support VT-d overall. Otherwise, I think the W series
tend to be more buggy than the T and X series because Lenovo sells a lot
less of the W's and there is less public scrutiny; W series are more
powerfull, though.

[Hakisho Nukama]

That is not true. I've made this assumption also.
The ThinkPad Edge Series does fall into such category,
where a working VT-d CPU is present, but chipset does not support VT-d.
So please consult the data sheets for chipset + cpu + BIOS for VT-d support
before making this claims. ;)
Thanks.

Otherwise all laptops on this list would support VT-d (Hint: they don't):
http://compare.eu/?cat=nb&xf=69_VT-d&sort=p

If they would also check for VT-d support for the used chipset, this list might
be a good starting point for a capable model (BIOS might not utilize it).

Best Regards,
Hakisho Nukama

[bjarne....@gmail.com]

OK. The number of Laptops with 8GB RAM and SSD based on i7-4600U is fairly lilited. Does Citrix Compatibility imply that qubes will also run on
Dell Latitude E7440 (see this link):
http://www.citrix.com/ready/en/dell-inc/dell-latitude-e7440

Bjarne

[bjarne....@gmail.com]

Even better. I found this link to Dell Latitude-E7440 Owner's Manual - Page 54:
http://www.manualowl.com/m/Dell/Latitude-E7440/Manual/368226?page=54
It states:
Enables or disables the Virtual Machine Monitor from utilizing the additional
hardware capabilities provided by Intel Virtualization technology
for direct I/O.
Enable VT for Direct I/O -- This option is enabled by default.

Is this sufficient proof that Latitude E7440 will work with qubes OS?
But what about TPM support?

Bjarne

[Zrubi]

On 10/06/14 12:01, bjarne....@gmail.com wrote:
> Even better. I found this link to Dell Latitude-E7440 Owner's Manual - Page 54:
> http://www.manualowl.com/m/Dell/Latitude-E7440/Manual/368226?page=54
> It states:
> Enables or disables the Virtual Machine Monitor from utilizing the additional
> hardware capabilities provided by Intel Virtualization technology
> for direct I/O.
> Enable VT for Direct I/O -- This option is enabled by default.
>
> Is this sufficient proof that Latitude E7440 will work with qubes OS?

this is only about VT-d.

And somebody just reported an older Dell modell where VT-x was disabled
but VT-d enabled! Which is nut a usual combination.

However not sure about the actual BIOS settings so maybe it is a bug in
bios or just some kind of misconfiguration.

> But what about TPM support?

TPM support and it's setting also should be found in the Manual.



--
Zrubi

[cprise]

As of the xx40 (i.e. E440, etc.) models with Haswell, I don't see any
reason why E or L series wouln't support VT-d (er... except for that one
AMD model :) :) ). That one AMD model and the little 11e's wouldn't
have VT-d... but the rest appear to have the right chipsets and right
CPU options. This also includes the Helix (Ivy Bridge) and Yoga
(Haswell) and their user guides show VT-d as a settable option in the BIOS.

[bjarne....@gmail.com]

I have now printed the complete Latitude E7440 Owner's Manual, and I like what I read. It carefully explains how to mount and dismount everyshing. It also tells me that the processor (i3, i5 or i7) is permanently mounted on the system board. BIOS specifically activates both VT-d and TPM.
I have now ordered a Dell E7440 with i7-4600U directly from Dell in Denmark. The price is actually slightly less than the one for ThinkPad T440p, p for "performance". The difference is that i7-4710MQ has a pin socket in T440p, so it can be removed. Is it possible that an i7 with VT-d can be substitutet? But the BIOS would also have to be upgraded.

[bjarne....@gmail.com]

Now I have my new Lattitude E7440. Indeed it has support for TPM, but ONLY if the system is booted by UEFI. The minimum qubes system requirements is stated to be "legacy boot mode". Unfortunately, I had overlooked that UEFI is not yet supported. Recommended requirements include "TPM with proper BIOS support". Yes, I should have known that technically speaking UEFI is not a BIOS.