Best ideal laptop for Qubes?

[dexint...@gmail.com]

I've been spending hours and hours looking at laptop configs from dell to lenovo and I still have yet to make a decision. I'm hoping you guys can help me.

Uses:

- Programming
- Web Dev
- Tor
- Screen real estate
- Regular web surfing and videos
- Some video and photo editing but I have a PC for that

I'd like to keep cost as low as possible but my budget is very flexible if I need to stretch it. I want something that will last me 3-5 years.

[cooloutac]

The most important thing, in terms of Qubes, is the hardware specifications and if it supports all the proper qubes security features.

https://www.qubes-os.org/news/2016/07/21/new-hw-certification-for-q4/

"Of course, to be compatible with Qubes OS, the BIOS must properly expose all the VT-x, VT-d, and SLAT functionality that the underlying hardware offers (and which we require). Among other things, this implies proper DMAR ACPI table construction."

The way to figure this out is to go to the store and boot one up with a qubes live flash stick. Or to get a hold of the manual and see if it mentions vt-d anywhere in it as an option.

Regarding the specific questions you are asking, that is a general hardware questions.

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/system-requirements/

"Fast SSD (strongly recommended)
Intel IGP (strongly preferred)
Nvidia GPUs may require significant troubleshooting.
AMD GPUs have not been formally tested, but Radeons (RX580 and earlier) generally work well
See the Hardware Compatibility List
TPM with proper BIOS support (required for Anti Evil Maid)
A non-USB keyboard or multiple USB controllers
Also consider the hardware certification requirements for Qubes 4.x."

I would also recommend at least 16gb of ram. more if you can afford it.

[cooloutac]

https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/hcl/ command to test if vt-d is supported.

[pixel fairy]

https://system76.com/laptops/galago one of the few that you can get with 4 real cores instead of just 2 with hyper threading. at least as of a few months ago when i got a few for work. the 4 core thing is important because those speculative execution blunders mean you cant use HT anymore.

using the 1080p version with a 4k display. they also have a hidpi version, but the screens only 13". may or may not fit your need for screen estate.

everything works and its great up until you want to watch youtube full screen at 4k. then it starts getting choppy. blender is fluid, for at least the small scenes ive done. so, video editing shouldnt be a problem. just remember to give your editing appvm lots of ram, and all the cores.

if your photo editing for print, you might need to keep that pc. you could try the plasma (kde) desktop and see if it can take an icc profile. never tried it.

[nosugar...@gmail.com]

Not quite sure why people try use Qubes with laptops. I found far better performance on desktops. Laptops are the opposite of flexible. PC's you can upgrade to your hearts content.

[799]

<nosugar...@gmail.com> schrieb am Sa., 23. Feb. 2019, 14:35:

Not quite sure why people try use Qubes with laptops. I found far better performance on desktops. Laptops are the opposite of flexible. PC's you can upgrade to your hearts content.

Maybe because for 90% a laptop offers enough performance, has much lower space & power requirement and can be used flexible?

And because maybe more people "have to use" computers than they "like to build" them thereselves.

Just a guess ;-)

I was asking the other question:

Who is buying those desktop PCs today? 

- O

[brenda...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 23, 2019 at 11:44:51 AM UTC-5, 799 wrote:
> <nosugar...@gmail.com> schrieb am Sa., 23. Feb. 2019, 14:35:
> > Not quite sure why people try use Qubes with laptops. I found far better performance on desktops. Laptops are the opposite of flexible. PC's you can upgrade to your hearts content.

I disagree that laptops aren't flexible.

E.g.

A 2011(!)-era Thinkpad W520 can be upgraded to 32GB of RAM and 16.4TB of SSD (2 x 7.68TB 2.5" SSD; 1 x 1TB mSATA SSD). 17.4TB SSD if you don't need all your drives to support a standard hardware FDE and don't mind cracking open one of Samsung's portable drives to extract the 2TB mSATA board.

Newer higher-end Thinkpad models can do 64B or 128GB of RAM, have 6 core options (12 threads possible, but we turn off HT for now) and support internal 4K displays...but due to the switch M.2 being primary storage with some support for 0 or 1 2.5" SSDs, they are currently limited to 4TB SSD of storage (or 11.5TB if they support 1 2.5" SSD). Faster though...and lighter than older models.

> Maybe because for 90% a laptop offers enough performance, has much lower space & power requirement and can be used flexible?

Agreed. I have performed installs on the x230 and x230 tablet and they are quite usable with 16GB of RAM after a little bit of tweaking. Chris Laprise has posted handy default memory tuning advice on this mailing list for constrained memory systems.

B

[dexint...@gmail.com]

Where can I find the memory guide? I have 16gb X1C6 that I acquired a couple days ago. So far 16gb is running my Qubes well but hey might as well do some tweaks.

[brenda...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, February 23, 2019 at 4:09:35 PM UTC-5, dexint...@gmail.com wrote:
> Where can I find the memory guide? I have 16gb X1C6 that I acquired a couple days ago. So far 16gb is running my Qubes well but hey might as well do some tweaks.

https://qubes-os.info/index.php?t=msg&th=190&goto=677&#msg_677

B

[nosugar...@gmail.com]

Who are buying desktops? Anyone who is serious about computing. Developers, gamers, businesses, those interested in VR, those interested in security, those interested in a build that can be upgraded to their hearts content.

Laptops have their purpose. They can provide a mobile computing experience. I use one for work purposes. But, lets be real. That is the only advantage over a desktop (even power usage can be just as low on a desktop if you want it to be). You don't even have to build one yourself for Qubes. You can easily buy a SSF Dell Optiplex off ebay for $200 with a Intel 4770/4790 and 16/32gb of ram.

I have an i7 laptop from 2011 that can't even run Qubes 4.0 because laptop cpus get shafted in the specs (thankfully they at least get vt'd these days). I have others that have heating problems because there is only so much cooling you can give a laptop, while some of my desktops have 5 14cm fans keeping them cool at 5ghz overclocks.

You say laptops are flexible? But are they? you can't just rip out parts (apart from ram/hdd) like a desktop. And their actual upgrade paths are limited. With my desktop I have parts from multiple build/years. It is just that flexible.

Also, space requirements? you living in a tent?

I speak out about this.. because I have 5 laptops sitting around collecting dust. They have limited use because they are laptops. Desktops can always be adapted to another use. One of my older builds became a pfsense router, for example.

[Frank Beuth]

On Sun, Feb 24, 2019 at 12:39:56AM -0800, nosugar...@gmail.com wrote:
>You say laptops are flexible? But are they? you can't just rip out parts (apart from ram/hdd) like a desktop. And their actual upgrade paths are limited. With my desktop I have parts from multiple build/years. It is just that flexible.
>
>Also, space requirements? you living in a tent?

Greetings from a beach on a lesser-known Greek island. I tried using a desktop
but the sand kept clogging the fans, and the powerstrip, and the GPU cooler,
whenever I brought it outside. After the 10th international flight I also got
really tired of having to explain to airlines why my luggage was so big and
heavy. (The vintage IBM Model M keyboard probably didn't help, they made me
check that because they thought it could be used as a weapon, which really
sucked because I was hoping to get some work done on the flight!)

[nosugar...@gmail.com]

Hahaha, greetings, Frank. I do envy a well travelled gent such as yourself. My poor qubes doesn't get to go mobile as it is only used in a secure setting with motion detection cameras giving it physical protection.

I travel through airports with vanilla distros.. (yes, yes, I am a windows user too.. still can't rid myself of it).

[Stuart Perkins]

My use case on my laptop is this...

I consult in the business world, and have a rather large presence in the e-mail world. I use Qubes because it separates...

1) programs from data with template VM's
2) tasks with discrete VM's based on purpose...e-mail, business records, servicing a particular client, password manager, general browsing etc...

Prior to Qubes, I would use snapshot kept VirtualBox vms with a non-snapshot kept virtual disk for data and revert to snapshot with each VM shutdown with multiple VM's for various purposes. I would periodically start the VM's, do software updates and retake my snapshot...essentially emulating a template based VM.

When I found Qubes, I found an entire OS designed around that very concept and more...so it was a logical fit to my laptop. Add a coreboot/ME-disabled system and security is manifestly enhanced, which is good for my business. While I don't intentionally keep client data around for long, the fact that I have to handle it from time to time makes keeping it separate and secure paramount.

Stuart

[Stuart Perkins]

I use an older Dell D630 as a "server" on my home network. It hosts three different VM's under VirtualBox. One is really old...XP...keeps track of my solar electric system. Two are Linux based...one is a VPN server, and one hosts a webpage for my farm. It runs continuously and is a replacement for the prior laptop I has doing the job for almost 10 years of continuous running. They can be repurposed quite easily. Yes, it is a PITA to "upgrade" the hardware much...but a usable laptop can be e-bay found for well < $100...and I treat them like a cheap disposable appliance. Why by a complicated built in oven when a counter top toaster oven will do the job?

Everything has a purpose.

[pixel fairy]

forgot to mention, you will need to tweak your netvm. when you first install, it wont be able to start sys-net. go into sys-nets settings/devices and remove the ethernet controller. then click on "Configure strict reset for PCI devices", the big button at the bottom of that tab.

dont know why, but you can make another netvm for sys-ethernet, but keeping both interfaces in the same netvm doesnt seem to work.

also tried a purism librem 13. the laptop itself was broken, but dont remember any compatibility issues with it. couldnt test the mic, as that was one of the broken parts.

[dexint...@gmail.com]

does this pertain to the X1C6 laptops? I haven't had a problem with sys-net starting.

[pixel fairy]

On Sunday, February 24, 2019 at 11:13:41 PM UTC-8, dexint...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, February 24, 2019 at 6:04:01 PM UTC-8, pixel fairy wrote:

> > dont know why, but you can make another netvm for sys-ethernet, but keeping both interfaces in the same netvm doesnt seem to work.
> >

...

> does this pertain to the X1C6 laptops? I haven't had a problem with sys-net starting.

that issue is specific to the system76 galago pro

[Tai...@gmx.com]

Get a G505S and install coreboot.

no me/psp, 16gb ram max, open cpu/ram init etc. good choice.

[Jon deps]

On 2/21/19 12:49 AM,

IMO get a thinkpad with 32 gb ram and don't worry about a TPM unless
your a stable jenius .....

[travorfi...@gmail.com]

четверг, 21 февраля 2019 г., 3:49:27 UTC+3 пользователь dexint...@gmail.com написал:

p52 thinkpad xeon + 128gb ram :)