Re: Qubes in Transifex

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Am 16.12.2017 um 05:52 schrieb Andrew David Wong:
> On 2017-12-15 15:52, French Language Coordinator wrote:
>> Hello Andrew David, [...] From what I gather from reading this
>> long post, you decided to
temporary
>> lock access to the Transifex Qubes project. We can do that for
>> you by archiving it, and we can also take care of making the
>> announcement to the Qubes language teams.
>>
>> Please confirm that this is what you want.
>>
>
> Basically, yes. Our localization team (CCed) can help coordinate
> the details.
>

Thank you, Andrew!


Hello, Alain-Olivier,

> On 2017-12-15 15:52, French Language Coordinator wrote:
>> Sorry for not answering any sooner, but I wasn’t aware of this
>> post on the qubes-translation on Google Groups.
>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/qubes-translation/1-vaupTtINA

We
>>
have to excuse for not having pooled you in yet. Thank you for your
contribution and for reading the long corresponding thread! Next time,
we should pool you in as early as possible.

Just for clarification: We (Blacklight447, Desobediente and Tobias
(me, tokidev)) together are currently the Qubes OS translation team.
None of us has all the power to make a group decision alone. So, we'll
discuss and hopefully find a solution which we all can agree on.
Especially for this step of "locking access to Transifex" we've pooled
in Andrew (the Qubes OS community manager; documentation and website
maintainer) since it's a wide step and should be supervised.

Please CC to <qubes-tr...@googlegroups.com>.

> On 2017-12-15 15:52, French Language Coordinator wrote:
>> For any Transifex related matters, please cc
>> french.tr...@rbox.me and er...@localizationlab.org so that
>> the Localization Lab team, whose Transifex hub is hosting and
>> managing translation for Qubes, will be in the loop.

I've added <french.tr...@rbox.me> to CC as requested. Please let
me know if someone is missing or redundant.



Concerning the topic:

> On 2017-12-15 15:52, French Language Coordinator wrote:
>> Hello Andrew David, [...] From what I gather from reading this
>> long post, you decided to
temporary
>> lock access to the Transifex Qubes project. We can do that for
>> you by archiving it, and we can also take care of making the
>> announcement to the Qubes language teams.

In my view, this would be a great help! Thank you for this offer!

AFAIK from [1], archiving an Open-Source project (like Qubes) on
Transifex will lead to this:

> The project is frozen. Any settings and content you have will
> remain
there, but you won't be able to use or modify anything until you
unarchive the project.

Here I see the problem that we cannot test automated upload/download
(push) content to/from Transifex as long as the project is archived.
Of course, we can go by the API specification [2], but there will be
the moment when I would like to test our (not yet written) scripts
before unarchiving the project.

To solve that problem, I propose to unarchive the project together
with posting an announcement stating this need of a test period.
@Alain-Olivier @Blacklight, @Desci: What do you think?

I would like to see the announcement you, Alain-Olivier, propose for
the step of archiving in advance. Maybe there are special things to
consider.

Best regards,
Tobias Killer

[1] https://docs.transifex.com/projects/archiving-a-project
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=yjP7
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Blacklight447]

Hello Tokidev,

I give my vote to unarchiving the project with an announcement, it seems to me that this is the appropriate way to handle this.

Cheers,
Blacklight



-------- Original Message --------

Please CC to .

> On 2017-12-15 15:52, French Language Coordinator wrote:
>> For any Transifex related matters, please cc
>> french.tr...@rbox.me and er...@localizationlab.org so that
>> the Localization Lab team, whose Transifex hub is hosting and
>> managing translation for Qubes, will be in the loop.

I've added to CC as requested. Please let

[Erin McConnell]

Hello Everyone,

Because contributors are added from the team manager and admin side, we can also keep the project "active" and simply remove all current Qubes contributors from the project and not accept any new contributor requests. We can communicate with the individuals, detail the situation and ask if they would like to be added to a list of contributors once the project is ready for localization.

Best regards,
Tobias Killer

[1] https://docs.transifex.com/projects/archiving-a-project

--

Erin McConnell
Localization Program Manager | Localization Lab
er...@localizationlab.org

www.localizationlab.org
t: @l10nlab

8CD3 FA23 F4DF 4463 09F0 6EC1 4AD2 818E 0504 B565

[Blacklight447]

I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new potentional contributers of the situation?
Because we wouldnt want them to think that it will be no longer possible to contribute ofcourse.



-------- Original Message --------

[Erin McConnell]

On 12/16/17 19:31, Blacklight447 wrote:

I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new potentional contributers of the situation?
Because we wouldnt want them to think that it will be no longer possible to contribute ofcourse.

When individuals request to join the team we can send them a stock message in Transifex alerting them of the situation and asking if they would like to be added to a list of individuals to be contacted when the project is active again. We can also direct them to the Google group in that message if they want to keep up with the project in general.

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello everybody,

This way seems brillant to me since we would gain a lot of flexibility
for testing purposes and probably other things.
I vote for this.

Am 16.12.2017 um 18:33 schrieb Erin McConnell:
>
>
> On 12/16/17 19:31, Blacklight447 wrote:
>> I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new potentional
>> contributers of the situation? Because we wouldnt want them to
>> think that it will be no longer possible to contribute ofcourse.
>>
> When individuals request to join the team we can send them a stock
> message in Transifex alerting them of the situation and asking if
> they would like to be added to a list of individuals to be
> contacted when the project is active again. We can also direct them
> to the Google group in that message if they want to keep up with
> the project in general.

I also vote for this.

@Erin: Have a lot of thanks for your nice proposal!

Best regards,
Tobias
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=+tq5
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Erin McConnell]

Perfect, I will wait till you guys reach a consensus and then we can
move forward with an announcement and standard message for new contributors.

- Erin

>
> Am 16.12.2017 um 18:33 schrieb Erin McConnell:
>
>
> > On 12/16/17 19:31, Blacklight447 wrote:
> >> I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new potentional
> >> contributers of the situation? Because we wouldnt want them to
> >> think that it will be no longer possible to contribute ofcourse.
> >>
> > When individuals request to join the team we can send them a stock
> > message in Transifex alerting them of the situation and asking if
> > they would like to be added to a list of individuals to be
> > contacted when the project is active again. We can also direct them
> > to the Google group in that message if they want to keep up with
> > the project in general.
>
> I also vote for this.
>
> @Erin: Have a lot of thanks for your nice proposal!
>
> Best regards,
> Tobias

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello, Desobediente,

What's your opinion, Desobediente?

>>
>> Am 16.12.2017 um 18:33 schrieb Erin McConnell:
>>
>>
>>> On 12/16/17 19:31, Blacklight447 wrote:
>>>> I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new
>>>> potentional contributers of the situation? Because we wouldnt
>>>> want them to think that it will be no longer possible to
>>>> contribute ofcourse.
>>>>
>>> When individuals request to join the team we can send them a
>>> stock message in Transifex alerting them of the situation and
>>> asking if they would like to be added to a list of individuals
>>> to be contacted when the project is active again. We can also
>>> direct them to the Google group in that message if they want to
>>> keep up with the project in general.
>>
>> I also vote for this.
>>
>> @Erin: Have a lot of thanks for your nice proposal!
>>
>> Best regards, Tobias
>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=XigR
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[French Language Coordinator]

Hello everyone,

Erin will be handling the archiving process for the Localization Lab, so
whatever she proposes, I second.

Best regards,

Alain-Olivier
French language coordinator
localizationlab.org | transifex.com/organization/otf
5C8F 0C0C 4812 7771 365C 262D 47DC 6187 47A9 22D2

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello, Erin,

We have decided not to wait for a response from Desobediente any longer.

So, you may move forward as agreed.
Please let us know if it is done.

>>>
>>> Am 16.12.2017 um 18:33 schrieb Erin McConnell:
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 12/16/17 19:31, Blacklight447 wrote:
>>>>> I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new
>>>>> potentional contributers of the situation? Because we
>>>>> wouldnt want them to think that it will be no longer
>>>>> possible to contribute ofcourse.
>>>>>
>>>> When individuals request to join the team we can send them a
>>>> stock message in Transifex alerting them of the situation
>>>> and asking if they would like to be added to a list of
>>>> individuals to be contacted when the project is active again.
>>>> We can also direct them to the Google group in that message
>>>> if they want to keep up with the project in general.
>>>
>>> I also vote for this.
>>>
>>> @Erin: Have a lot of thanks for your nice proposal!
>>>
>>> Best regards, Tobias
>
>
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=HUiy
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Erin McConnell]

Was just about to follow up on this. Great, I will work on this today
and get back to you later with more details.

>
> >>>
> >>> Am 16.12.2017 um 18:33 schrieb Erin McConnell:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> On 12/16/17 19:31, Blacklight447 wrote:
> >>>>> I would like to ask, is there a way of notifying new
> >>>>> potentional contributers of the situation? Because we
> >>>>> wouldnt want them to think that it will be no longer
> >>>>> possible to contribute ofcourse.
> >>>>>
> >>>> When individuals request to join the team we can send them a
> >>>> stock message in Transifex alerting them of the situation
> >>>> and asking if they would like to be added to a list of
> >>>> individuals to be contacted when the project is active again.
> >>>> We can also direct them to the Google group in that message
> >>>> if they want to keep up with the project in general.
> >>>
> >>> I also vote for this.
> >>>
> >>> @Erin: Have a lot of thanks for your nice proposal!
> >>>
> >>> Best regards, Tobias
>
>

[Erin McConnell]

Hey All,

The deed has been done.
    - Made the project private so it is still active for testing etc.,
but not visible to non-team members.
    - Posted an announcement for all Qubes OS project members.
    - Documented all current Qubes OS project members and removed them
so they can be re-added at a later date.
    - Will remove current translators in a couple of days so that those
who don't have email notifications turned on can get a chance to view
the announcement.
    - Sent individual messages to all pending translator requests.

In the announcement and the private messages I let individuals know that
they can keep up-to-date with localization and project through your
mailing lists and shared a link to the site page with related info.

Let me know if you have questions or feedback etc.

Best,
Erin

On 1/17/18 21:50, Tobias Killer wrote:

[tokidev]

Hello Erin,

Am 20.01.2018 um 12:45 schrieb Erin McConnell:
> Hey All,
>
> The deed has been done.
> - Made the project private so it is still active for testing etc.,
> but not visible to non-team members.
> - Posted an announcement for all Qubes OS project members.
> - Documented all current Qubes OS project members and removed them
> so they can be re-added at a later date.
> - Will remove current translators in a couple of days so that those
> who don't have email notifications turned on can get a chance to view
> the announcement.
> - Sent individual messages to all pending translator requests.
>
> In the announcement and the private messages I let individuals know that
> they can keep up-to-date with localization and project through your
> mailing lists and shared a link to the site page with related info.
>
> Let me know if you have questions or feedback etc.

Great Work! Especially the announcement is very nice IMHO.
Thank you for it!

So, we will start our work here soon.

>
> Best,
> Erin
>

Best,
Tobias

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello Erin,

Am 20.01.2018 um 12:45 schrieb Erin McConnell:

> Hey All,
>
> The deed has been done. - Made the project private so it is still
> active for testing etc., but not visible to non-team members. -
> Posted an announcement for all Qubes OS project members. -
> Documented all current Qubes OS project members and removed them so
> they can be re-added at a later date. - Will remove current
> translators in a couple of days so that those who don't have email
> notifications turned on can get a chance to view the announcement.
> - Sent individual messages to all pending translator requests.
>
> In the announcement and the private messages I let individuals know
> that they can keep up-to-date with localization and project through
> your mailing lists and shared a link to the site page with related
> info.
>
> Let me know if you have questions or feedback etc.

Great Work! Especially the announcement is very nice IMHO.
Thank you for it!

So, we will start our work here soon.

>
> Best, Erin
>

Best,
Tobias

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----

iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE9VOPt2yY9xS+XKzULaXvb25AsygFAlplpU4ACgkQLaXvb25A
syjeeA//SDaMpqnuqdMfPmZPa4WJOX0M0iU5ZXkJhHD/+SRzx7JW+Fk1eoqrFOxz
rYU1DHZ37aAqzauQWNxW1gpg7UanFIu7nkneOwFtQDOEeI0f0sBkGVUGfvLTIrR9
nIoOLjS3DNmPagG7lHL18fO45x6bsRj9HBDJeIjcGCNLyHVIB0daiNVK5uVshVAv
/LN4/OIFcN/Y7UQr/AAiCnKTYvStArEO0IDAuFNW4UdhXLXU9R4zGOX1RhZ5z+2p
x4O1fYNRBW5ZRg9jau1/S0/Sq21rv+xIR7U+0g9D/KjoqYOpoHJCwwlB14yVTu9X
BN0FU04NO318Xvwe3SoGg5z8TQkObf6xkB5FQhv9VWeb7CVPfdtDY31uBg6RUvw8
8rQd0h1smb8kq4YmSl2vz3j1d99nSvbCLCN7BkUyJtWvpa7odVLBetY+fLcCCk4R
YpMOk1mqkWCIpqzpdu85+oyU7epiWWJWHTUxYlRQEpM6ZPNhEN82Y5CcJmjA11C0
nUURLnvBYSie7VnHy/uAZ1cw9QQDpTkDMkCQk/m0zhizW3i9TdvzcRrmw91A6AyC
jUpnEoeJpffXuJ1/FIQtD2OvYPoDziXfnsUYzUddn+GHBwIw7vNtolLHn7cQKFM2
/pOHt5BHYtKxB4OKNMyF9hmoxqAqJG3/ctk72NVrjgIRmwk9xEo=
=pQF1
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[pdi...@gmail.com]

Hello,

My name is Pablo and I work in some projects with LocLab, for es_*
I am a regular Qubes user since 3.1, by the way.

I confirm that the email Erin sent to Transifex collaborators reached me, and pointed to this list (that I have not reviewed in several months, so it was a good reminder of its existence).

I will stay suscribed here.

Cheers,
///Pablo

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello, Pablo,

Am 22.01.2018 um 21:53 schrieb pdi...@gmail.com:
> Hello,
>
> My name is Pablo and I work in some projects with LocLab, for es_*
> I am a regular Qubes user since 3.1, by the way.
>
> I confirm that the email Erin sent to Transifex collaborators
> reached me, and pointed to this list (that I have not reviewed in
> several months, so it was a good reminder of its existence).

Thank you!

>
> I will stay suscribed here.

Nice to know. In case we need some views from another perspective, we
could ask you.

>
> Cheers, ///Pablo

Cheers,
Tobias

>
>
> El sábado, 16 de diciembre de 2017, 11:33:15 (UTC-3), Tobias Killer
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=ZpTE
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Allan Nordhøy]

When this effort started, looking at it, I found it wanting, to the tune of being poor condition, with many more unanswered questions relating to the translation thereof.

Given there was no goto-insider to get quick answers from, my stated concern was that it would not be possible to complete a functional translation of Qubes OS in any meaningful time-frame, so long as it used Transifex. Hitherto I don't think the extra man-hours are best offered at the alter of having non-english speaking audiences make use of Qubes OS, and short of that, I see no valid point at all.

Given we are now these years later down the road, were it to have been possible, it would still come down to the aforementioned person, and in particular the tool at hand. Transifex is the very too with which drive-by translators dispersedly inconjugate. Lacking protections against inconsistency, mistakes, and equally poor when utilized in the attempt to avoid them, wasting valuable time in trying to do so.

It is unethical, and actively undermines the principles behind Qubes OS, in that it is similar to Google groups, but additionally, also dangerous.

Qubes OS has not, but can take an active role in leading the Localization Lab out of using the tool that most centrally thwarts efforts at building a free software community around translation.

When it also fails to even use the fruits of the labour, taking the project down from Transifex only solves half the issue, but a natural corollary exists.

Pootle is a reliable and libre alternative, with Weblate possibly gaining the ends to cope with a huge and technical project like Qubes OS in the near future.

[Blacklight447]

Dear Tobias,

Its indeed hard to see wether this really is a troll post or not, but the fact is that some people dont know how to properly explain themselves in english. Because of this I do think we should answer him,but keep our heads cool and proffesional, and just try to be helpfull where we can. And where we cannot be helpfull, we can just state that we will come back at it when we can.

[Allan Nordhøy]

lørdag 16. desember 2017 15.33.15 UTC+1 skrev Tobias Killer følgende:

Given the benefit of the doubt, with no problem raised with either language or content,
let me try to lay it out more clearly. I think we can agree
Qubes OS revolves around concepts of security that must be clear to the user to work.
Transifex does not allow for translation in a consistent manner without extreme effort.
(All of which could be automatic with a different tool.)
The way I see this means this very concept of security, is in jeopardy.
That is in a best case scenario.

Accounting for malice, preventing outright sabotage or attack could be achieved in not accepting
what is assumed to be bad translators into the project.
Though not a bad idea, it is no safeguard on its own.
While this is essentially the only equivalent stopgap in preventing ill intent on Transifex,
it moves the extreme effort over to the role of allowing people in. Or vetting people
beforehand, as it were.

To have an actual overview of what goes on, you need the tool to
communicate _when_ change happens, and what it consists of. Speaking here of basic
changes to strings. New translations and changes.
Other platforms have this essential ability, Transifex does not.
In any case, this is no less an extreme effort on part of the translator,
but at that, one that has to do with translation. For a project like Qubes OS, this
is where I would like to offer my services, as a translator.

As someone trying to make sure also the source strings reflect my concerns for quality,
a lot of my time gets sunk into the way Transifex handles the link between
a string in the platform, where it exists in the codebase, and where that
codebase is hosted. If I am beginning to sound repetitive in pointing out that
this is fixed on other platforms, then yes; Such is life, in the every single day
of someone wanting to bridge the gap between translators and the projects
that are translated.

There could be a lot more people doing it, and it could be less technical.
The people doing it now could be doing so more efficiently.
Carring out this many-fly swatting operation means getting rid of Transifex.

One would think Transifex could just fix its issues, but no, that fly is grinning
out of reach.
Transifex does not listen to user input, nor honour their service contracts.
No amount of feasible effort or money changes that. Nor is Transifex libre software,
so one is dealt a hand of looking at alternatives,
if not only for the reasons described.

When Qubes OS couldn't exist without the ecosystem
and freedoms of libre software, why would a community revolving around it
not integrate and function better given the same liberties?

Translators, and I speak for myself in no uncertain terms, often have difficulty
adapting to new ways in that they are technical in nature, and highly technical in they are
complex.

Fortunately this is where eventualities turn out for the better, both
Pootle and Weblate have excellent and humble developers that listen, react quickly,
and are great people at that. The people i know in Qubes are no different.

Qubes OS in particular is a rather large and complex project, in the early days
of establishing its own language, and communicating that to translators, making matters worse,
but also making benefits of switching platform higher.

If you have a lot of people changing only a few strings, this is something that would
otherwise be valuable, but with Transifex turns out to be the opposite, for reasons described.
When relying so heavily on extreme effort on part of every single translator to arrive
at any meaningful finality, it stands to reason micro-managing "drivers by" does the opposite
of sharing the load. These individuals are in turn discouraged from translating,
and the cycle continues. There would be a lot more valuable translators
if communication wasn't so broken. Not only just the automatic feedback, but also the messaging.

Granted, messaging is not something tackled well ore even implemented on other platforms,
but it is not an unthreaded mess like on Transifex.

The spying nature of Transifex, in the scripts it loads, similar to Google Groups, is also one Qubes OS
could do without, for reasons why the Qubes OS makes sense.

Do not assume I can't detail what I describe as extreme effort looks like in practice.
It would however only serve as a manual on the many ways in which Transifex is futile,
for reasons the argument of time spent needlessly doing things is valid.

I am not trying to say I have said this earlier, I am trying to
say it again.

~kingu

[Tobias Killer]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

Hello, Allan Nordhøy,

Thank you for your long and detailed email. I am not sure if I have
understood you correctly due to my lack of expressive English. So, as
a first step, in this email I would like to reflect how I have
understood you in a summarizing manner (and using simpler English),
rather than giving an answer to the content itself. Please evaluate
the correctnesses of my rewritings and correct them where necessary.

Am 29.01.2018 um 18:28 schrieb Allan Nordhøy:
> lørdag 16. desember 2017 15.33.15 UTC+1 skrev Tobias Killer
> følgende:

>> [proposing Alain-Olivier to archive the project]

>
> Given the benefit of the doubt, with no problem raised with either
language or content,
> let me try to lay it out more clearly. I think we can agree Qubes
> OS revolves around concepts of security that must be clear to
the user to work.
> Transifex does not allow for translation in a consistent manner
without extreme effort.
> (All of which could be automatic with a different tool.) The way I
> see this means this very concept of security, is in jeopardy. That
> is in a best case scenario.

"Qubes OS focuses on security which must clear to the user if it shall
work.
Translations via Transifex are not consistent and not efficient.
(Another tool would meet it.)
I see the whole concept of security be in danger, in the best case."

>
> Accounting for malice, preventing outright sabotage or attack
> could
be achieved in not accepting
> what is assumed to be bad translators into the project. Though not
> a bad idea, it is no safeguard on its own. While this is
> essentially the only equivalent stopgap in preventing
ill intent on Transifex,
> it moves the extreme effort over to the role of allowing people
> in.
Or vetting people
> beforehand, as it were.

"One could prevent attacks by rejecting translators who seem to be
harmful. But this alone is not sufficient since it just moves the
problem of the extreme effort."

>
> To have an actual overview of what goes on, you need the tool to
> communicate _when_ change happens, and what it consists of.
> Speaking
here of basic
> changes to strings. New translations and changes. Other platforms
> have this essential ability, Transifex does not. In any case, this
> is no less an extreme effort on part of the
translator,
> but at that, one that has to do with translation. For a project
> like
Qubes OS, this
> is where I would like to offer my services, as a translator.

"For an up-to-date overview about the translation progress, you need a
tool that calls you on changes in detail. Transifex is not able to do
this. Other platforms do.
This is where I would like to offer my services, as a translator."

>
> As someone trying to make sure also the source strings reflect my
concerns for quality,
> a lot of my time gets sunk into the way Transifex handles the link
between
> a string in the platform, where it exists in the codebase, and
> where
that
> codebase is hosted. If I am beginning to sound repetitive in
pointing out that
> this is fixed on other platforms, then yes; Such is life, in the
every single day
> of someone wanting to bridge the gap between translators and the
projects
> that are translated.

"I am also concerned if the source strings are of a reasonable quality.
I have thought a lot about
(1) the way how Transifex links strings between a project's codebase
and their internal representation within Transifex and
(2) where that codebase is hosted."

>
> There could be a lot more people doing it, and it could be less
technical.
> The people doing it now could be doing so more efficiently. Carring
> out this many-fly swatting operation means getting rid of
Transifex.

"Getting rid of Transifex has some advantages:
(1) more helping people,
(2) more efficient work and
(3) less technical manner."

>
> One would think Transifex could just fix its issues, but no, that
fly is grinning
> out of reach. Transifex does not listen to user input, nor honour
> their service
contracts.
> No amount of feasible effort or money changes that. Nor is
> Transifex
libre software,
> so one is dealt a hand of looking at alternatives, if not only for
> the reasons described.

"Transifex
(1) does not solve its problems,
(2) does not listen to its users,
(3) does not honor the users' service contracts and
(4) is not free/libre software.
This cannot be changed by more effort or money.
Also, these reasons motivate to look for alternatives."

>
> When Qubes OS couldn't exist without the ecosystem and freedoms of
> libre software, why would a community revolving
around it
> not integrate and function better given the same liberties?

[[Sorry, I do not understand what you want to say. Please rewrite this
paragraph using simpler English. Thank you!]]

>
> Translators, and I speak for myself in no uncertain terms, often
have difficulty
> adapting to new ways in that they are technical in nature, and
highly technical in they are
> complex.

"In my view, it is difficult for translators to deal with complex and
high-technical systems."

>
> Fortunately this is where eventualities turn out for the better,
> both Pootle and Weblate have excellent and humble developers that
> listen,
react quickly,
> and are great people at that. The people i know in Qubes are no
different.

"Fortunately, the developers of Pootle and Weblate
(1) are excellent,
(2) are humble,
(3) listen to their users and
(4) react quickly on issues.
The developers of Qubes OS are this way, too."

>
> Qubes OS in particular is a rather large and complex project, in
> the
early days
> of establishing its own language, and communicating that to
translators, making matters worse,
> but also making benefits of switching platform higher.

[[Sorry, I do not understand what you want to say. Please rewrite this
paragraph using simpler English. Thank you!]]

>
> If you have a lot of people changing only a few strings, this is
something that would
> otherwise be valuable, but with Transifex turns out to be the
opposite, for reasons described.
> When relying so heavily on extreme effort on part of every single
translator to arrive
> at any meaningful finality, it stands to reason micro-managing
"drivers by" does the opposite
> of sharing the load. These individuals are in turn discouraged
> from
translating,
> and the cycle continues. There would be a lot more valuable
> translators if communication wasn't so broken. Not only just the
> automatic
feedback, but also the messaging.

"If you have many people who translate only a few strings on Transifex
then that work is useless for the reasons described.
Relying on a hopefully extreme effort to be made by each single
translator will also not share the load but accumulate it.
This will discourage the translators and so on.
If communication via messaging and automatic feedback worked well then
more translators would be there."

>
> Granted, messaging is not something tackled well ore even
implemented on other platforms,
> but it is not an unthreaded mess like on Transifex.

"Messaging on other platforms, if available, is not that chaotic as it
is on Transifex."

>
> The spying nature of Transifex, in the scripts it loads, similar
> to
Google Groups, is also one Qubes OS
> could do without, for reasons why the Qubes OS makes sense.

"Scripts loaded from Transifex spy, similar to those from Google Groups.
Qubes could get rid of it for security reasons."

>
> Do not assume I can't detail what I describe as extreme effort
> looks
like in practice.
> It would however only serve as a manual on the many ways in which
Transifex is futile,
> for reasons the argument of time spent needlessly doing things is
> valid.

"I can describe what I mean with extreme effort in detail.
But there are many more reasons, besides wasting the time, why
Transifex is pointless."

>
> I am not trying to say I have said this earlier, I am trying to say
> it again.
>
> ~kingu
>

Kind regards,
Tobias Killer
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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=TJHI
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

[Allan Nordhøy]

lørdag 16. desember 2017 15.33.15 UTC+1 skrev Tobias Killer følgende:

I made one philosophical point, but it is not central to the argument, it was intended to make sense on it from a deeper level, however, this one is the central aspect:

> Qubes OS in particular is a rather large and complex project, in
> the
early days
> of establishing its own language, and communicating that to
translators, making matters worse,
> but also making benefits of switching platform higher.

Qubes has not yet found all the words to describe what it is doing. Meanwhile, a translation that is done "outside" of the project, is only

a) going to make matters worse, or
b) fix it in a way that doesn't contribute back.

What I mean is the problems of Transifex are the same for every project.
For Qubes, the problems are extra bad. The scale increases with complexity and size. One way of looking at it is that this is the worst it could be, and that is true. Another way of looking at it is that switching to especially Pootle, or Weblate, makes more sense, because it fixes more problems. That is also true.

The Qubes translation could try to bridge the gap between translation and project, and everyone wins.

~kingu