Some questions

[Tobias Killer]

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Hello Andrew and Marek,

In this email, there are several questions and things to say.

I've sent an initial email to qubes-translation. You may join this
list if you like.

The discussions on issues on GitHub concerning localization have
decisions sometimes, e.g. here [1], there is a decision of the scheme
for filenames and subdirectories. How "undoable" are such decisions?
May I change the decision? For example, in this given issue #1333, I'd
like to use another system: Keep filenames as the original ones, but
precede filepaths with a language-and-country-dependent directory.
When transforming all the links on all website and documentation pages
from absolute to relative ones, it'll be much easier to maintain and
translate.

I'd like to test what the translated website will look like. How can I
get access to a translated version of the website?

I'd like to get access to Transifex such that I can upload and
download files.

If you and your team don't sign commits of files in languages you
can't read, will it be possible to provide multilingual software?

Regards,
Tobias Killer

[1] https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1333
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[Marek Marczykowski-Górecki]

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On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:25:05PM +0200, Tobias Killer wrote:
> Hello Andrew and Marek,
>
> In this email, there are several questions and things to say.
>
> I've sent an initial email to qubes-translation. You may join this
> list if you like.

Thanks!

> The discussions on issues on GitHub concerning localization have
> decisions sometimes, e.g. here [1], there is a decision of the scheme
> for filenames and subdirectories. How "undoable" are such decisions?
> May I change the decision? For example, in this given issue #1333, I'd
> like to use another system: Keep filenames as the original ones, but
> precede filepaths with a language-and-country-dependent directory.
> When transforming all the links on all website and documentation pages
> from absolute to relative ones, it'll be much easier to maintain and
> translate.

Generally most decisions are "undoable". But it isn't always wise to
change them, because of the effort needed to redo all the places where
decision was applied already.
In case of filenames, such a change could be probably automated (at
least in repository, not sure about transifex).

> I'd like to test what the translated website will look like. How can I
> get access to a translated version of the website?

Well, it doesn't exist yet...
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2652

> I'd like to get access to Transifex such that I can upload and
> download files.

Not sure about upload, but you should be able to download them, no?
AFAIR Michael (cc-ed) have better understanding on transifex settings.

> If you and your team don't sign commits of files in languages you
> can't read, will it be possible to provide multilingual software?

This is difficult question. I'd say the same rules as for documentation
applies here too. I.e. we may provide other language versions translated
by the community, but the most accurate one is English. This should be
clearly stated in documentation, and probably also in such translated
tools.
Technically, this is perfectly possible, because most (all?)
localization frameworks support shipping translations in separate files.

- --
Best Regards,
Marek Marczykowski-Górecki
Invisible Things Lab
A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
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[Tobias Killer]

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Am 18.07.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Marek Marczykowski-Górecki:
> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:25:05PM +0200, Tobias Killer wrote:
>> Hello Andrew and Marek,
>
>> In this email, there are several questions and things to say.
>
>> I've sent an initial email to qubes-translation. You may join
>> this list if you like.
>
> Thanks!
>
>> The discussions on issues on GitHub concerning localization have
>> decisions sometimes, e.g. here [1], there is a decision of the
>> scheme for filenames and subdirectories. How "undoable" are such
>> decisions? May I change the decision? For example, in this given
>> issue #1333, I'd like to use another system: Keep filenames as
>> the original ones, but precede filepaths with a
>> language-and-country-dependent directory. When transforming all
>> the links on all website and documentation pages from absolute to
>> relative ones, it'll be much easier to maintain and translate.
>
> Generally most decisions are "undoable". But it isn't always wise
> to change them, because of the effort needed to redo all the places
> where decision was applied already.

I agree.

As I can see, the post [1] follows indeed my ideas, except for the
directory name scheme. I suggest to have both language and country in
the tag, e.g. en-US, en-GB etc.. I know, en-US and en-GB differ just
slightly, but there are other examples. For example, on the Transifex
website of Qubes OS [2], there are currently both Portuguese
(Portugal) and Portuguese (Brazil) listed (and I heard that they are
very different to each other). Looks like that the country really matters.

@Andrew: What language code scheme do you have in mind? It looks like
ISO 639-1, see this list: [3].

@Andrew: It's hard for me to find a norm that specifies language tags
in combination with country. These two look good for me: [4], [5].
What do you think about it?

> In case of filenames, such a change could be probably automated
> (at least in repository, not sure about transifex).

As far as I can see now (sorry, I didn't see it until now), Andrew's
post [1] says that the filenames shall be kept. So, not a deal.

>
>> I'd like to test what the translated website will look like. How
>> can I get access to a translated version of the website?
>
> Well, it doesn't exist yet...
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2652

@Andrew, is there a way anybody could help you doing all these tasks
mentioned in your post there?

>
>> I'd like to get access to Transifex such that I can upload and
>> download files.
>
> Not sure about upload, but you should be able to download them,
> no? AFAIR Michael (cc-ed) have better understanding on transifex
> settings.

You're right, I can download them (sorry, I used NoScript, that's why
I didn't see it before).

The filenames seem to be somewhat weird. I hope that thing related to
these filenames can be automated.

Currently, I can't upload. But this is not urgent, now.

>
>> If you and your team don't sign commits of files in languages
>> you can't read, will it be possible to provide multilingual
>> software?
>
> This is difficult question. I'd say the same rules as for
> documentation applies here too. I.e. we may provide other language
> versions translated by the community, but the most accurate one is
> English. This should be clearly stated in documentation, and
> probably also in such translated tools.

I agree.

> Technically, this is perfectly possible, because most (all?)
> localization frameworks support shipping translations in separate
> files.

Hopefully all do. I'll deal with the software localization later.

Tobias


[1]
https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1333#issuecomment-282525224
[2] https://www.transifex.com/otf/qubes/
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ISO_639-1_codes
[4] http://www.lingoes.net/en/translator/langcode.htm
[5] http://www.i18nguy.com/unicode/language-identifiers.html
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[Andrew David Wong]

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On 2017-07-19 16:01, Tobias Killer wrote:
> Am 18.07.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Marek Marczykowski-Górecki:
>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:25:05PM +0200, Tobias Killer wrote:
>>> Hello Andrew and Marek,
>
>>> In this email, there are several questions and things to say.
>
>>> I've sent an initial email to qubes-translation. You may join
>>> this list if you like.
>
>> Thanks!
>

Thanks. Joined. :)

>>> The discussions on issues on GitHub concerning localization have
>>> decisions sometimes, e.g. here [1], there is a decision of the
>>> scheme for filenames and subdirectories. How "undoable" are such
>>> decisions? May I change the decision? For example, in this given
>>> issue #1333, I'd like to use another system: Keep filenames as
>>> the original ones, but precede filepaths with a
>>> language-and-country-dependent directory. When transforming all
>>> the links on all website and documentation pages from absolute to
>>> relative ones, it'll be much easier to maintain and translate.

If you ever want to change something significant, I suggest that you do
what I did here and open a GitHub issue about it. That will give others
the chance to comment and provide feedback before you take action, and
it will document any actions taken so that we can figure what happened
(and why) if there's a problem down the road.

>> Generally most decisions are "undoable". But it isn't always wise
>> to change them, because of the effort needed to redo all the places
>> where decision was applied already.
>
> I agree.
>

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence

> As I can see, the post [1] follows indeed my ideas, except for the
> directory name scheme. I suggest to have both language and country in
> the tag, e.g. en-US, en-GB etc.. I know, en-US and en-GB differ just
> slightly, but there are other examples. For example, on the Transifex
> website of Qubes OS [2], there are currently both Portuguese
> (Portugal) and Portuguese (Brazil) listed (and I heard that they are
> very different to each other). Looks like that the country really matters.
>

In short: Now that we've decided to use a separate submodule for
translated files, it should be fine (and probably necessary) to have
subdirectories like /en-US/.

> @Andrew: What language code scheme do you have in mind? It looks like
> ISO 639-1, see this list: [3].
>
> @Andrew: It's hard for me to find a norm that specifies language tags
> in combination with country. These two look good for me: [4], [5].
> What do you think about it?
>

I don't have any strong views about these issues. Following ISO
standards is a good idea. [4] strikes me as more common.

>> In case of filenames, such a change could be probably automated
>> (at least in repository, not sure about transifex).
>
> As far as I can see now (sorry, I didn't see it until now), Andrew's
> post [1] says that the filenames shall be kept. So, not a deal.
>
>
>>> I'd like to test what the translated website will look like. How
>>> can I get access to a translated version of the website?
>
>> Well, it doesn't exist yet...
>> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2652
>
> @Andrew, is there a way anybody could help you doing all these tasks
> mentioned in your post there?
>

I've broken these out into separate issues, so we can see who is
assigned to each one. Several tasks are assigned to Marek, because I
believe he is the only one with the requisite access rights or knowledge
to do those tasks. Some are assigned to me, which I will do shortly. One
is "help wanted." Basically, the situation is the same as I described it
to you in this comment:

https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2652#issuecomment-304183784

Here's the list of all branched issues:

https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/2652#issuecomment-316562040

Andrew David Wong (Axon)
Community Manager, Qubes OS
https://www.qubes-os.org
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[tokidev]

Am 20.07.2017 um 02:54 schrieb Andrew David Wong:
> On 2017-07-19 16:01, Tobias Killer wrote:
>> Am 18.07.2017 um 22:51 schrieb Marek Marczykowski-Górecki:
>>> On Mon, Jul 17, 2017 at 11:25:05PM +0200, Tobias Killer wrote:
>>>> Hello Andrew and Marek,
>
>>>> In this email, there are several questions and things to say.
>
>>>> I've sent an initial email to qubes-translation. You may join
>>>> this list if you like.
>
>>> Thanks!
>
>
> Thanks. Joined. :)
>
>>>> The discussions on issues on GitHub concerning localization have
>>>> decisions sometimes, e.g. here [1], there is a decision of the
>>>> scheme for filenames and subdirectories. How "undoable" are such
>>>> decisions? May I change the decision? For example, in this given
>>>> issue #1333, I'd like to use another system: Keep filenames as
>>>> the original ones, but precede filepaths with a
>>>> language-and-country-dependent directory. When transforming all
>>>> the links on all website and documentation pages from absolute to
>>>> relative ones, it'll be much easier to maintain and translate.
>
> If you ever want to change something significant, I suggest that you do
> what I did here and open a GitHub issue about it. That will give others
> the chance to comment and provide feedback before you take action, and
> it will document any actions taken so that we can figure what happened
> (and why) if there's a problem down the road.
>

Thank you for your advice! I see what you mean. So, in the future, I'll
open GitHub issues here [6] and link to appropriate mailing list
discussion threads and vice versa where necessary.

>>> Generally most decisions are "undoable". But it isn't always wise
>>> to change them, because of the effort needed to redo all the places
>>> where decision was applied already.
>
>> I agree.
>
>
> Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Chesterton%27s_fence
>

Thanks. I like wise principles. (And I still have to learn more.)

Thank you for your work! This way, all the listed tasks will be easier
to handle.

[6] https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues