Add more desktop environment

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51l...@ileg.al

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Jul 8, 2022, 7:02:40 PMJul 8
to Qubes Devel
Yesterday I tried to make some additional desktop environment that can
be installed during the installation, as far as I know i3 and kde
declared stable by some people. Is it a good idea to add a desktop
environment that we can choose during the installation process?

I also tried adding gnome and it looks good.

For the screenshot you may look at here
https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/advanced-qubes-installation-light-installer-4kn-debian-template-detached-header-encrypted-boot-dom0-dispvm-in-tmpfs/11603/5

51l...@ileg.al

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Jul 9, 2022, 7:49:42 AMJul 9
to deeplow, Qubes Devel
On 2022-07-09 13:01, deeplow wrote:
>> Yesterday I tried to make some additional desktop environment that can
>
>> I also tried adding gnome and it looks good.
>
> The problem with gnome is that getting the windows borders to work is
> very tricky and it has little ways to extend (e.g. custom tray menu
> items). Or at least this is what I learned form
> https://github.com/QubesOS/qubes-issues/issues/1806
>
> Best,
> deeplow

I've seen the issue and read all post, I'll do a research about this.

unman

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Jul 9, 2022, 8:01:13 AMJul 9
to qubes...@googlegroups.com
I'm surprised that you were able to add Gnome - I thought that the
consensus was that it would be difficult to incorporate in to a Qubes
environment.

Here's the problem with making additional environments available at
install - it requires that they be fully supported by Qubes.
There's no point in offering an option that doesn't work fully, or that
will immediately require support. At the moment the only one that fits
seems to be Xfce.
The advantage in offering other DE as optional is that users will come
across warnings *before* they try to add them, so should at least be
aware of the issues they may come across.

I think the same applies to offering a plethora of distros at
installation.
If these offerings were behind an Advanced option, perhaps with a label,
"Abandon hope all ye who enter here", or "This place is terrible", then
possibly.

At the moment, I think that Qubes is best served by keeping the install
options simple, and offering alternatives post install.
I will sometimes install KDE from the start - so perhaps different
install iso for different flavors of Qubes would be an alternative. But
again, I would be concerned at the support overhead.

I say this as a user who thinks KDE is *far* better than Xfce for
Qubes.

unman

51l...@ileg.al

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Jul 9, 2022, 8:32:47 AMJul 9
to unman, qubes...@googlegroups.com
> I say this as a user who thinks KDE is *far* better than Xfce for
> Qubes.
>
> unman

The gnome itself, i took from fedora 32 xml, Aside from border colour,
it still need to remove unecessary package.

The kde, is already in the qubes, I just add kde-settings-qubes as per
your instruction (in the image above the kde-settings-qubes is not
installed)

and for the i3, it only contain openbox (for login screen), i3, and
i3-settings-qubes.

The purpose of adding more DE is to have clean and minimal dom0, as
example people who use kde or i3, didn't need xfce things in their dom0.


> I will sometimes install KDE from the start - so perhaps different
> install iso for different flavors of Qubes would be an alternative. But
> again, I would be concerned at the support overhead.

Instead of different flavors, we could just do all in one in the iso,
saving bandwidth, storage, reducing burden builder.

unman

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Jul 9, 2022, 8:46:10 AMJul 9
to qubes...@googlegroups.com
As I said, the issue will be with support in mmaking these options
available to new users.
Given the ability of users to click about at install without really
understanding what they do, the potential for disaster here is huge.
What would a new user faced with i3 *do*?

imo the risks far outweigh the benefit for ordinary new installers.

51l...@ileg.al

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Jul 9, 2022, 10:26:58 AMJul 9
to Qubes Devel
I see, from perspective 'new user' who just migrate from windows or mac
is indeed could be troublesome, especially if they don't read
documentation or description.

I know that you can't see image so I'll give you a view.
In the Software Selection Normally you only see :

Left :
Base Environment
-------------------------
Qubes OS with XFCE
- Standart installation with XFCE environment in Dom0

Right :
Qubes UI (Audio / GUI)
- Qubes UI daemons

and in the new layout it would be :

Left :
Base Environment
-------------------------
Qubes OS with XFCE
- Standart installation with XFCE environment in Dom0
Qubes OS with KDE
- Standart installation with KDE environment in Dom0
Qubes OS with I3
- Standart installation with I3 environment in Dom0
Qubes OS with GNOME
- Standart installation with GNOME environment in Dom0

Right :
Qubes UI (Audio / GUI)
- Qubes UI daemons

In there we could add description to give a better explanation and
update install guide doc.
The installation is just same, if the 'new user' not look into software
selection, xfce will be default.

and another idea, it would be good if we can add Included template in
the installation, so in the 'Right' we have :

Qubes UI (Audio / GUI)
- Qubes UI daemons
Fedora
- Fedora 36 Template
Debian
- Debian 11 Template
Whonix
- Whonix 16 Template

I know that we can choose not to install those template later in initial
setup, and those package would be removed after initial setup, but i
think if we didn't included those template at installation, it would
make installation faster right?

Outback Dingo

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Jul 10, 2022, 12:44:51 AMJul 10
to 51l...@ileg.al, Qubes Devel
> --

i actually prefrred the kde plasma desktop back when they used it as
default, then removed it, so i dont use qubes much anymore, bring back
plasma and i might start again!



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unman

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Jul 10, 2022, 7:28:26 AMJul 10
to Outback Dingo, 51l...@ileg.al, Qubes Devel
On Sun, Jul 10, 2022 at 11:44:11AM +0700, Outback Dingo wrote:
<snip>
> > I know that we can choose not to install those template later in initial
> > setup, and those package would be removed after initial setup, but i
> > think if we didn't included those template at installation, it would
> > make installation faster right?
> >
> > --
>
> i actually prefrred the kde plasma desktop back when they used it as
> default, then removed it, so i dont use qubes much anymore, bring back
> plasma and i might start again!
>

KDE has *always* been available - not sure why you wouldn't have realised
that.
In 4.1 you can install it with `sudo qubes-dom0-update kde-settings-qubes`,
which will pull in all the necessary.
The only significant glitch is that the Network Manager icon is blank -
just a white space.

Demi Marie Obenour

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Jul 10, 2022, 1:38:59 PMJul 10
to unman, qubes...@googlegroups.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 01:01:10PM +0100, Qubes OS Development Mailing List wrote:
> On Fri, Jul 08, 2022 at 04:48:33PM +0000, 51l...@ileg.al wrote:
> > Yesterday I tried to make some additional desktop environment that can
> > be installed during the installation, as far as I know i3 and kde
> > declared stable by some people. Is it a good idea to add a desktop
> > environment that we can choose during the installation process?
> >
> > I also tried adding gnome and it looks good.
> >
> > For the screenshot you may look at here
> > https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/advanced-qubes-installation-light-installer-4kn-debian-template-detached-header-encrypted-boot-dom0-dispvm-in-tmpfs/11603/5
>
> I'm surprised that you were able to add Gnome - I thought that the
> consensus was that it would be difficult to incorporate in to a Qubes
> environment.

That consensus is accurate. I will be adding an entry to the FAQ
explaining why GNOME integration in Qubes is much more difficult than it
appears.
- --
Sincerely,
Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers)
Invisible Things Lab
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51l...@ileg.al

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Jul 10, 2022, 7:46:33 PMJul 10
to qubes...@googlegroups.com
What i found after testing :
1. There's no screen flickering, my xfce, i3, kde (or official) build
has screen flickering if i use IGPU, until now I always use my 1660ti
(and I believe other user who use modern laptop has this issue too) but
with gnome it's stable.
2. There's no copy paste global notification but they've worked, every
vm notification like connection, or other notification is work.
3. There's no sys-net network applet, tor status, and other related
widget in the dom0 panel.
4. Everything is worked (you can imagine it as a standard developer
daily use)

I actually have the idea how to solve this, but let's see in couple
days.
Another pict about gnome screenshot, it been tested in my laptop
https://forum.qubes-os.org/t/advanced-qubes-installation-light-installer-4kn-debian-template-detached-header-encrypted-boot-dom0-dispvm-in-tmpfs/11603/6

Demi Marie Obenour

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Jul 10, 2022, 8:21:15 PMJul 10
to 51l...@ileg.al, qubes...@googlegroups.com
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

The two must-have missing features are colored window borders and status
icons. The former can be solved (with a significant amount of effort,
so do not expect it anytime soon!) by using client-side decorations
(decorations drawn by the GUI daemon, not the display server). The
latter will require a GNOME Shell extension, which is a problem as those
do not have a stable API.
- --
Sincerely,
Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers)
Invisible Things Lab
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