Problem with shiny new carb (possible cause; idiot trying to fit it)
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Niall McCracken
Apr 16, 2016, 4:24:46 PM4/16/16
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Hello there - we've probably established by now that I'm an idiot with no mechanical experience....
Anyway, managed to rewire my dash and get the clock going today (thanks Jim!) also discovered the last guy never wired up the dash backlights which may explain why it was really really dim at night...
Anyway, I was on a roll, so decided to fit my new carb - a 32/34 Dmtr from webcon. But I have a problem - knowing next to nothing about cars (and not having an installation guide as promised (thanks webcon), my assumption that the new carb would have the same fittings as the old was naive /misguided. My old dft has a fuel pipe that goes into a metallic filter or something and that screwed into the carb body. Next to that there's another pipe with a brass fitting. I assumed that was some sort of float overflow or similar because it seems to come from the petrol tank too.
But the new carb doesn't have any way (that I can see) of plugging both these pipes in. There's no thread at all for adding the fuel pipe filter attachment (well there is but its blanked off) but there is the brass tube thing that the overflow was on before. If I plug the fuel line into this one (I honestly can't see where else it would go) then I've got no overflow (or whatever it is) pipe anymore? I did try it this was but the quantum was having none of it - it almost caught but then just filled the carb with petrol.... Yippee.
Anyway, as ever, HELP!!!!
Photo here kind of explains what I mean I hope!
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?75232-Weber-32-34-DMTL
Anyway, managed to rewire my dash and get the clock going today (thanks Jim!) also discovered the last guy never wired up the dash backlights which may explain why it was really really dim at night...
Anyway, I was on a roll, so decided to fit my new carb - a 32/34 Dmtr from webcon. But I have a problem - knowing next to nothing about cars (and not having an installation guide as promised (thanks webcon), my assumption that the new carb would have the same fittings as the old was naive /misguided. My old dft has a fuel pipe that goes into a metallic filter or something and that screwed into the carb body. Next to that there's another pipe with a brass fitting. I assumed that was some sort of float overflow or similar because it seems to come from the petrol tank too.
But the new carb doesn't have any way (that I can see) of plugging both these pipes in. There's no thread at all for adding the fuel pipe filter attachment (well there is but its blanked off) but there is the brass tube thing that the overflow was on before. If I plug the fuel line into this one (I honestly can't see where else it would go) then I've got no overflow (or whatever it is) pipe anymore? I did try it this was but the quantum was having none of it - it almost caught but then just filled the carb with petrol.... Yippee.
Anyway, as ever, HELP!!!!
Photo here kind of explains what I mean I hope!
http://www.pngclub.com/forum/showthread.php?75232-Weber-32-34-DMTL
Jim Hearne
Apr 16, 2016, 4:41:48 PM4/16/16
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Some carbs have the fuel return to the tank and some don't.
I can't remember if the DMTR did or not. I've got a couple but they are an hours drive away.
Some use the screw in fuel filter and some don't, even if it does have one i would always fit an inline filter before the fuel pump.
The link you gave is to a DMTL not a DMTR, which is your new carb ?
Is it a new DMTR kit from Webcon ?
Can you send a couple of pictures of the new carb and it's pipes including the one that is blanked off (whats it blanked off with).
Jim
I can't remember if the DMTR did or not. I've got a couple but they are an hours drive away.
Some use the screw in fuel filter and some don't, even if it does have one i would always fit an inline filter before the fuel pump.
The link you gave is to a DMTL not a DMTR, which is your new carb ?
Is it a new DMTR kit from Webcon ?
Can you send a couple of pictures of the new carb and it's pipes including the one that is blanked off (whats it blanked off with).
Jim
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Steve Kodź
Apr 16, 2016, 4:45:09 PM4/16/16
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Niall,
I can't help with the carb, but the dash lights might still be very dim. The bulbs in the dash pod have blue (or green?) plastic covers. With age these darken and become brittle, but start blocking out a lot of light. I would recommend removing these; Mike Ballance documented this process in QM85.
Regards,
Steve
I can't help with the carb, but the dash lights might still be very dim. The bulbs in the dash pod have blue (or green?) plastic covers. With age these darken and become brittle, but start blocking out a lot of light. I would recommend removing these; Mike Ballance documented this process in QM85.
Regards,
Steve
Niall McCracken
Apr 16, 2016, 5:08:38 PM4/16/16
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Steve, yes did that actually, it's brighter than the sun now!
Niall McCracken
Apr 16, 2016, 5:11:08 PM4/16/16
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Thanks Jim, sorry it's the Dmtr I think. I'll take some pics tomorrow if I don't torch the car / drown in petrol first....
It's this one;
http://www.webcon.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=847
It's this one;
http://www.webcon.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=847
Jim Hearne
Apr 16, 2016, 5:44:24 PM4/16/16
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I can't seem to find out what carb that is.
I don't think it's a DMTR as it says it's a replacement for the DMTR.
Should be able to tell from some pictures what needs to go where.
Jim
I don't think it's a DMTR as it says it's a replacement for the DMTR.
Should be able to tell from some pictures what needs to go where.
Jim
Chris
Apr 16, 2016, 6:35:42 PM4/16/16
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Hi Niall,
Off subject, but where in the country are you? There might be a club member
near you.
Chris G
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Off subject, but where in the country are you? There might be a club member
near you.
Chris G
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Niall McCracken
Apr 17, 2016, 7:05:23 AM4/17/16
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Hi Chris, I'm in stone, just outside Stafford.
Niall McCracken
Apr 17, 2016, 7:05:38 AM4/17/16
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Jim Hearne
Apr 17, 2016, 12:33:33 PM4/17/16
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If you film in landscape it's a lot more viewable on a PC (sorry,
pet hate).
After much freezing of the video i'm pretty sure all your plumbing is correct.
And that carb would appear to have no return to the tank so all you should need to do blank off your spare pipe.
You said when you ran it it filled the carb with fuel.
This tends to suggest either the float needle isn't seating properly which is a bit tricky to check without taking the top off the carb, and since yours is new and under warranty i wouldn't do that.
Or that the fuel pressure is too high and it's forcing fuel past the closed float valve.
One thing that controls the fuel pressure is the thickness of the spacer between the head and the fuel pump, i can see there is one from the video but how thick is it ?, can you measure it ?
In theory you can reduce the fuel pressure by putting a T piece in the pipe between the fuel pump and the carb, connect the side of the T to the pipe that goes back to the tank, but put a restriction in that pipe (something with a small hole in it) so that there is still some pressure built up.
But really, it shouldn't need that.
Have you mentioned the problem to Webcon, i think they were quite helpful last time i contact them, though, that was about 15 years ago.
Jim
After much freezing of the video i'm pretty sure all your plumbing is correct.
And that carb would appear to have no return to the tank so all you should need to do blank off your spare pipe.
You said when you ran it it filled the carb with fuel.
This tends to suggest either the float needle isn't seating properly which is a bit tricky to check without taking the top off the carb, and since yours is new and under warranty i wouldn't do that.
Or that the fuel pressure is too high and it's forcing fuel past the closed float valve.
One thing that controls the fuel pressure is the thickness of the spacer between the head and the fuel pump, i can see there is one from the video but how thick is it ?, can you measure it ?
In theory you can reduce the fuel pressure by putting a T piece in the pipe between the fuel pump and the carb, connect the side of the T to the pipe that goes back to the tank, but put a restriction in that pipe (something with a small hole in it) so that there is still some pressure built up.
But really, it shouldn't need that.
Have you mentioned the problem to Webcon, i think they were quite helpful last time i contact them, though, that was about 15 years ago.
Jim
On 17/04/2016 10:46, Niall McCracken
wrote:
Video of my exploits may help! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ysonuRP91zg
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Niall McCracken
Apr 17, 2016, 1:32:45 PM4/17/16
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Jim - can't thank you enough for taking the time to look at it. The kit came with a t bar with a brass restrictor so I actually tried doing exactly what you suggested this morning. Still flooding though (quite literally!), the carb chamber was still filling long after the key was out.
i went to bed last night with a "not going to get to stoneleigh dread" so after lunch I bit the bullet and took the whole thing off and refitted the old one - she started first time. But I did break the little brass connecting rod that goes from the auto choke to the butterflies so I had to blank it off. But it runs at least. I'll try webcon again tomorrow, I think I need adult supervision!
One thing I did notice was that when I removed the new carb - was that the spacer gasket was soaked with fuel, both above and below. Could this whole thing have been caused by me not tightening the new carb down tight enough?
Ps sorry about the video, will be better orientated in future (maybe with a snazzy post modernist soundtrack and moody panning!....)
Thanks again Jim!
i went to bed last night with a "not going to get to stoneleigh dread" so after lunch I bit the bullet and took the whole thing off and refitted the old one - she started first time. But I did break the little brass connecting rod that goes from the auto choke to the butterflies so I had to blank it off. But it runs at least. I'll try webcon again tomorrow, I think I need adult supervision!
One thing I did notice was that when I removed the new carb - was that the spacer gasket was soaked with fuel, both above and below. Could this whole thing have been caused by me not tightening the new carb down tight enough?
Ps sorry about the video, will be better orientated in future (maybe with a snazzy post modernist soundtrack and moody panning!....)
Thanks again Jim!
Jim Hearne
Apr 17, 2016, 1:44:25 PM4/17/16
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If the T came with the kit then i'd certainly fit it, the pipe with
the restriction should go to the return pipe to the tank.
It does sound though that the float valve isn't sealing correctly.
Tell Webcon it's flooding and see what they say, maybe somebody forgot to fit the needle valve or the float.
It is quite easy to remove the top of the carb, it's just the 4 slotted screws.
Then you can gently lift the float while blowing through the fuel inlet pipe and make sure it seals.
But if it's a new carb i wouldn't got that far yet unless they suggest it.
You don't want to overtighten the nuts holding the carb down or you will squash the spacer gasket and distort the flange on the carb.
If they have spring washers under the nuts then just tight enough to flatten out the spring, otherwise it's a bit tricky to say how much but if it needs any effort it's probably too tight.
Jim
It does sound though that the float valve isn't sealing correctly.
Tell Webcon it's flooding and see what they say, maybe somebody forgot to fit the needle valve or the float.
It is quite easy to remove the top of the carb, it's just the 4 slotted screws.
Then you can gently lift the float while blowing through the fuel inlet pipe and make sure it seals.
But if it's a new carb i wouldn't got that far yet unless they suggest it.
You don't want to overtighten the nuts holding the carb down or you will squash the spacer gasket and distort the flange on the carb.
If they have spring washers under the nuts then just tight enough to flatten out the spring, otherwise it's a bit tricky to say how much but if it needs any effort it's probably too tight.
Jim
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Jamest142
May 6, 2016, 3:34:36 PM5/6/16
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Hiya
Nice to meet you at Stoneleigh. Been thinking about your carb not running properly...
When I fitted the K&N filter to my car I also read the manual (!), and found I had to purchase new jets. You may need to investigate if you can find a Weber specialist locally who can try various jets and have the various exhaust tester to find the size that runs correctly with the engine / jet / airfilter combo.
Best regards
James T
Q2-002
Niall McCracken
May 6, 2016, 4:31:21 PM5/6/16
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James,
Yes had a super time really enjoyed meeting you all. Thanks for thinking about my carb - I can't seem to get it to idle at all and have been working on it every night for the last week, there's literally nothing on google about carbs that I haven't now read! Everything seems to point to a vacuum leak but I'm dubious as the old carb that came off idled just fine. I'm going to have another play tomorrow. But, funnily enough, I took the idle jets off today and gave them a clean just to make sure (they were perfect) and, literally an hour ago I thought "I wonder if it's worth taking the idle jets of the old carb and giving them a go". Spooky! Either way, strongly tempted to set fire to it and just get an Audi A3 on lease (joke!)
Sent from my iPad
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Jamest142
May 6, 2016, 5:54:56 PM5/6/16
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Just another thought...
When you drove the car back from Stoneleigh - did it run properly when you were using more than tickover / on the 2nd carb opening?
Also - have you looked at the spark plugs to see what colour they are when you have done a run on the carb? That will point to either running too lean, or too rich.
The instructions advised to take the existing jet out which was a 117, and replace with a 122 unit. I purchased mine from Fast Road Cars off eBay - really helpful and friendly chap - I also ordered a full rebuild kit, and it arrived the next working day.
You are more than welcome to borrow / try the 117 jet I took out.
TTFN
James
Niall McCracken
May 7, 2016, 9:48:41 AM5/7/16
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James
Thanks for the offer that's very kind. But yes runs like a dream under load it's just on idle (or not being on idle!) that's the prob. Made some progress this morning though, bought some carb cleaner and started playing around - looks like there is a vacuum leak. It's either somewhere around the base plate under where the throttle mechanism goes into the body - or in the throttle mechanism itself. Can't be sure and now the car is overheating so I'll go back out in an hour and have another play!
Niall
Thanks for the offer that's very kind. But yes runs like a dream under load it's just on idle (or not being on idle!) that's the prob. Made some progress this morning though, bought some carb cleaner and started playing around - looks like there is a vacuum leak. It's either somewhere around the base plate under where the throttle mechanism goes into the body - or in the throttle mechanism itself. Can't be sure and now the car is overheating so I'll go back out in an hour and have another play!
Niall
Jim Hearne
May 7, 2016, 9:59:14 AM5/7/16
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You can use a trickling hose when looking for vacuum leaks, a lot
cheaper than carb cleaner.
The small amount of water sucked in through the leak will do the engine no harm.
As soon as the water flows over the leak the engine speed will increase and you will hear the water being sucked in.
On some carbs there is a vacuum pipe about where you describe, for going to the distributor i think.
The fiesta has the distributor vacuum coming from the side on the inlet manifold.
Just wondering if this carb has a extra pipe ?
As an aside, supposedly pouring water slowly into the air intake cleans out the combustion chambers.
Just keep the revs up and don't put in too much water, if it starts misfiring it's too much.
I've tried it on a couple of cars with no ill effects.
I think the idea is the water flashes into steam when the fuel burns so its a bit like steam cleaning the combustion chambers.
Jim
The small amount of water sucked in through the leak will do the engine no harm.
As soon as the water flows over the leak the engine speed will increase and you will hear the water being sucked in.
On some carbs there is a vacuum pipe about where you describe, for going to the distributor i think.
The fiesta has the distributor vacuum coming from the side on the inlet manifold.
Just wondering if this carb has a extra pipe ?
As an aside, supposedly pouring water slowly into the air intake cleans out the combustion chambers.
Just keep the revs up and don't put in too much water, if it starts misfiring it's too much.
I've tried it on a couple of cars with no ill effects.
I think the idea is the water flashes into steam when the fuel burns so its a bit like steam cleaning the combustion chambers.
Jim
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Jim Hearne
May 7, 2016, 10:06:51 AM5/7/16
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Another thought, you have got power to the idle cut off valve on the
carb haven't you ?
Can you hear a click if you unplug it while the ignition is on ?
Can you hear a click if you unplug it while the ignition is on ?
Jim
On 07/05/2016 11:57, Niall McCracken
wrote:
Niall McCracken
May 7, 2016, 2:28:47 PM5/7/16
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Jim
Ha yes thanks - tried out it yesterday to be on the safe side works fine! I took new carb off and refitted the old one using the the new base plate and it's doing the same thing so think it may be the sealing around the base - ordered some more base plates and thin gaskets this afternoon hope that's it. Worked out I've spent over 50 hours on this so far. Why did I buy an old car again???
Thanks a million guys, I'll keep you posted!
Sent from my iPad
Sent from my iPad
Jamest142
May 7, 2016, 2:47:31 PM5/7/16
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Hiya
Probably for the same reason I did - you can actually fix and tweak it without needing a degree in computer science with a budget to match :)
And it will not rust.
Hope you get it sorted soon.
TTFN
James T
Hamish Freeman
May 8, 2016, 4:56:56 AM5/8/16
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Hi Niall,
Just a thought but did you by any chance have to remove a vacuum pipe when fitting the new carbs. This reminds me of what happened on my H4 and also on my Beauford when one removed the crank case closed circuit breather connection to the manifold.
Any odd tapping points around the manifold that look as if they should be attached to something? Try putting your finger on them to see if the problem goes away. If yes, then look for the missing hose!
Good luck!
Hamish
Just a thought but did you by any chance have to remove a vacuum pipe when fitting the new carbs. This reminds me of what happened on my H4 and also on my Beauford when one removed the crank case closed circuit breather connection to the manifold.
Any odd tapping points around the manifold that look as if they should be attached to something? Try putting your finger on them to see if the problem goes away. If yes, then look for the missing hose!
Good luck!
Hamish
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Chris
May 8, 2016, 9:56:26 AM5/8/16
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On the xr2 air filter box there is a rubber pipe that runs from the box and
plugs in the back of the inlet manifold.
If you forget to plug it back in (as I have done many times) then it won't
idle.
Chris G
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From: Niall McCracken
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plugs in the back of the inlet manifold.
If you forget to plug it back in (as I have done many times) then it won't
idle.
Chris G
-----Original Message-----
From: Niall McCracken
Sent: Saturday, May 7, 2016 11:57 AM
To: Quantum Owners Group
Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: Problem with shiny new carb (possible
cause; idiot trying to fit it)
To: Quantum Owners Group
Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Re: Problem with shiny new carb (possible
cause; idiot trying to fit it)
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Niall McCracken
May 9, 2016, 1:37:53 PM5/9/16
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Thanks guys, vacuum tubes all present and correct it's just my hair, marbles and youthful good looks that seem to be missing...
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