Silvertop vs Blacktop

[Andrew Owen]

I want to change the 1.6 zetec engine in my H4 for a 2 litre zetec.

There are lots of Blacktop engines available with sensible miles and cost, but low mileage Sivertops are not so easy to come by.

I have looked at lots of info on the internet and so I have a reasonably good idea of the work involved in the swop.

However I am not sure if the Blacktop is going to present more difficulties in fitting  than the Silvertop, could anyone give advice on this?

Thanks

Andrew

[Jim Hearne]

Yes, it will be more work but nothing insurmountable.

 

The first thing to think about though is probably the engine management.

All the black top engine ECU’s will be coded to the key so you need to make sure you buy an ecu with a matching car wiring loom, ignition key sensor and ignition key.

The best thing to do is buy a written off but running car, then you can get all the parts you need.

Don’t go too new though as i believe on later cars the instrument cluster can also be coded to the ecu and the ecu won’t work without it.

I’ve not actually confirmed this myself.

 

The alternative is an aftermarket engine management system but ideally still get the Ford wiring loom for the engine so you have all the correct plugs for the engine.

 

Jim

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[Hamish Freeman]

I can confirm the issue of needing the instrument cluster – whilst I was still at Ricardo (10 years ago!) the Noise Lab had to have the whole vehicle parked outside and extension wiring into the anechoic chamber if doing noise reduction work on “modern” engines or else it was not possible to start the engine.

 

Hamish

[Pete M]

On Wednesday, 30 January 2013 08:41:34 UTC, Jim Hearne wrote:

Yes, it will be more work but nothing insurmountable.

 

The first thing to think about though is probably the engine management.

All the black top engine ECU’s will be coded to the key so you need to make sure you buy an ecu with a matching car wiring loom, ignition key sensor and ignition key.

Can you not just swap the to a 2.0 Silvertop's ECU (EEC-IV), as that will keep the same harness and sensors connections as the 1.6? Finding a suitable DEEP, DESK or DEWY ECU might be more of a problem these days though.

[Jim Hearne]

The silver top ecu won't match the black top injectors, AFM or the cam profile etc.

Jim

On 30/01/2013 19:27, Pete M wrote:

On Wednesday, 30 January 2013 08:41:34 UTC, Jim Hearne wrote:

Yes, it will be more work but nothing insurmountable.

�

The first thing to think about though is probably the engine management.

All the black top engine ECU�s will be coded to the key so you need to make sure you buy an ecu with a matching car wiring loom, ignition key sensor and ignition key.

Can you not just swap the to a 2.0 Silvertop's ECU (EEC-IV), as that will keep the same harness and sensors connections as the 1.6? Finding a suitable DEEP, DESK or DEWY ECU might be more of a problem these days though.

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[Phillip Harris]

Hi,

I am running a Blacktop in a 2+2 but using the silvertop inlet manifold as the black manifold is too big, I am using a omex 600 ecu. I do have a omex map for the standard blacktop engine if you decide that route it was sent to me by omex.

I also had to grind away some of the alloy sump to allow the starter motor to fit which is on the front of the engine.

The blacktop engine also has solid lifters.

Phil Harris

--

[TonyV]

I second the need to remove a lot of the sump webbing to fit the starter, but mine went into a north-south layout.

Carbs are always an option if you don't want the expense of injection and ecus.

The blacktop engines do have some other nice design features - such as the builtin windage tray in the sump, and on the 2 litre there are oil jets into the underside of the piston crowns.

One other issue that people sometimes raise is the direction of rotation of the waterpump. On the silver tops you can just change the pump, but there isn't an oem reversed waterpump for the blacktop.
Plenty of people run it backwards without problems.
I used a custom reversed impeller imported from the States.

TonyV

[Susan and Martin Scott]

ISTR on the silvertop that the Escort and Mondeo waterpumps could 'do the
same job' but ran in opposite directions (not expressed well but you know
what I mean) - is that not the case for the blacktop?
Martin

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[Ian Harrison]

I believe the blacktop water pump rotates the opposite direction to the silver top, so watch out for serpentine routing. 

Ian

Sent from my iPad

[Ian Harrison]

There you go... :-)

Sent from my iPad

[george]

You can get a after market pulley and mount it on a bracket to run the
belt the other side of the water pump and thus making it work
correctly I 've done this on my H4 you just have to line it up seems
to work fine.

On Jan 30, 9:42 pm, Ian Harrison <bighatp...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> There you go... :-)
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 30 Jan 2013, at 20:41, TonyV <q...@avies.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > I second the need to remove a lot of the sump webbing to fit the starter, but mine went into a north-south layout.
>
> > Carbs are always an option if you don't want the expense of injection and ecus.
>
> > The blacktop engines do have some other nice design features - such as the builtin windage tray in the sump, and on the 2 litre there are oil jets into the underside of the piston crowns.
>
> > One other issue that people sometimes raise is the direction of rotation of the waterpump.  On the silver tops you can just change the pump, but there isn't an oem reversed waterpump for the blacktop.
> > Plenty of people run it backwards without problems.
> > I used a custom reversed impeller imported from the States.
>
> > TonyV
>
> > --
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Quantum Owners Group" group.
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to quantumowner...@googlegroups.com

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/quantumowners?hl=en

[Andrew Owen]

Just looking into this a little more I am not all sure that the RS 2000 engine is a Silvertop.

On 31 January 2013 07:49, Andrew Owen <owen.and...@gmail.com> wrote:

As an alternative would the Mk6 Escort RS2000 engine be a good swop for an H4 with a 1995 Zetec1.6, I would guess the answer is yes as its a Silvertop from the same vintage?

I am particularly thinking here of the compatibility of ECU's and ignition circuits.

Additionally I have read that if using a 2.0 Zetec in a Fiesta (H4) the standard inlet manifold is the wrong shape/too big and the best one to go for is the RS 1800 manifold, I was wondering how this compares with the RS 2000 manifold in terms of size/shape.

Comments welcomed!  

[Andrew Owen]

As an alternative would the Mk6 Escort RS2000 engine be a good swop for an H4 with a 1995 Zetec1.6, I would guess the answer is yes as its a Silvertop from the same vintage?

I am particularly thinking here of the compatibility of ECU's and ignition circuits.

Additionally I have read that if using a 2.0 Zetec in a Fiesta (H4) the standard inlet manifold is the wrong shape/too big and the best one to go for is the RS 1800 manifold, I was wondering how this compares with the RS 2000 manifold in terms of size/shape.

Comments welcomed!  

On 30 January 2013 21:42, Ian Harrison <bigha...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[Jim Hearne]

No, it’s a totally different engine, most similar to the twin cam used in the Sierra and Granada.

 

Jim

Comments welcomed!  

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[Andrew Owen]

Having looked into this further I concur with Jim, the silvertop zetec 2.0 engine is definitely the most straightforward replacement for the 1.6 Fiesta zetec, although I think the blacktop does have the benefit of advances in the overall development of the zetec engines. 

The blacktop could be fitted but there are far more complications than are initially apparent, some parts of the engine have to be removed with a grinder to allow clearance, the engine mountings need modification, the pulley/water pump arrangement also needs modification and there is the ECU/ignition  to deal with etc. By comparison the silvertop seems a doddle!

The next task is finding a silvertop engine with sensible mileage, given that these were phased out for the blacktop in 1996, as far as I can ascertain, this probably wont be that easy, I will keep a lookout for either an engine or an old Mondeo thats been well cared for but has seen better days!

Andrew

[Michael...@aol.com]

Please can anyone tell me - what is black on a black top engine or silver on a silver top?

 

What are the main structural differences that enable one to be distinguished from the other?

 

Thanks.

[Jim Hearne]

It's the colour of the the rocker cover.
Silver aluminium on the early Zetec and Zetec-E and black on the revised Zetec-R (i think it's actually plastic).

You can of course find engines where the silver rocker cover has been painted black.

Other differences, the silver top has a one piece allloy sump, the black top has a 2 part sump with a aluminium section and a small steel section below.
The silvertop has the waterpump on the end of the block, on the blacktop it's more forward, just infront of the black.

Jim

On 03/02/2013 15:47, Michael...@aol.com wrote:

Please can anyone tell me - what is black on a black top engine or silver on a silver top?

�

What are the main structural differences that enable one to be distinguished from the other?

�

Thanks.

�

In a message dated 02/02/2013 13:37:52 GMT Standard Time, owen.and...@gmail.com writes:

Having looked into this further I concur with Jim, the silvertop zetec 2.0 engine is definitely�the most�straightforward�replacement for the 1.6 Fiesta zetec, although I think the blacktop does have the benefit of�advances�in the overall development of the zetec engines.�

The blacktop could be fitted but there are far more complications than are initially apparent, some parts of the engine have to be removed with a grinder to allow clearance, the engine mountings need modification, the pulley/water pump arrangement also needs modification and there is the ECU/ignition� to deal with etc. By�comparison�the silvertop seems a doddle!

The next task is finding a silvertop engine with sensible mileage, given that these were phased out for the blacktop in 1996, as far as I can�ascertain, this�probably�wont be that easy, I will keep a lookout for either an engine or an old Mondeo thats been well cared for but has seen better days!

Andrew

On 1 December 2012 09:54, Jim Hearne <j...@quantums.info> wrote:

No, it�s a totally different engine, most similar to the twin cam used in the Sierra and Granada.

�

Jim

�

�

From: Andrew Owen

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:09 AM

To: quantumowners@googlegroups..com

Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Silvertop vs Blacktop

�

Just looking into this a little more I am not all sure that the RS 2000 engine is a Silvertop.

On 31 January 2013 07:49, Andrew Owen <owen.and...@gmail.com> wrote:

As an alternative would the Mk6 Escort RS2000 engine be a good swop for an H4 with a 1995 Zetec1.6, I would guess the answer is yes as its a Silvertop from the same vintage?

�

I am particularly thinking here of the compatibility of ECU's and ignition circuits.

�

Additionally I have read that if using a 2.0 Zetec in a Fiesta (H4) the standard inlet manifold is the wrong shape/too big and the best one to go for is the RS 1800 manifold, I was wondering how this compares with the RS 2000 manifold in terms of size/shape.

�

Comments welcomed!��

On 30 January 2013 21:42, Ian Harrison <bigha...@googlemail.com> wrote:

There you go... :-)

Sent from my iPad

On 30 Jan 2013, at 20:41, TonyV <q...@avies.co.uk> wrote:

> I second the need to remove a lot of the sump webbing to fit the starter, but mine went into a north-south layout.
>
> Carbs are always an option if you don't want the expense of injection and ecus.
>
> The blacktop engines do have some other nice design features - such as the builtin windage tray in the sump, and on the 2 litre there are oil jets into the underside of the piston crowns.
>

> One other issue that people sometimes raise is the direction of rotation of the waterpump.� On the silver tops you can just change the pump, but there isn't an oem reversed waterpump for the blacktop.

�

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[The Colonel]

Hi Andrew,

I may be able to help here... I purchased a stage 2 tuned Specialized Engines 2L Zetec silver top from a friend who was breaking a show car to put in my partners H4 ages ago, but she crashed a different car and decided more power in the H4 was not a good idea. It has sat moth balled, along with a stainless manifold, gearbox which 'apparently' has an LSD in it but one broken lug AND a low mileage 2L zetec complete with ECU which I acquired just in case for the last 4yrs. The Specialized engine was apparently built on a new block and had only covered 12k miles, have no reason to doubt but no receipts either.

Whole lot can be had for £600, manifold with heat wrap is worth £200 alone!

[jon jackson]

Hi Colonel,

An LSD is quite easy to prove because if you rotate a drive flange on one side the opposite flange will rotate in the same direction, however an open diff will rotate in an opposite direction.

I wish I had one on my 2+2!

cheers Jon

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[Michael...@aol.com]

Thanks Jim, Michael

 

In a message dated 03/02/2013 19:01:08 GMT Standard Time, j...@quantums.info writes:

It's the colour of the the rocker cover.
Silver aluminium on the early Zetec and Zetec-E and black on the revised Zetec-R (i think it's actually plastic).

You can of course find engines where the silver rocker cover has been painted black.

Other differences, the silver top has a one piece allloy sump, the black top has a 2 part sump with a aluminium section and a small steel section below.
The silvertop has the waterpump on the end of the block, on the blacktop it's more forward, just infront of the black.

Jim

On 03/02/2013 15:47, Michael...@aol.com wrote:

Please can anyone tell me - what is black on a black top engine or silver on a silver top?

 

What are the main structural differences that enable one to be distinguished from the other?

 

Thanks.

 

In a message dated 02/02/2013 13:37:52 GMT Standard Time, owen.and...@gmail.com writes:

Having looked into this further I concur with Jim, the silvertop zetec 2.0 engine is definitely the most straightforward replacement for the 1.6 Fiesta zetec, although I think the blacktop does have the benefit of advances in the overall development of the zetec engines. 

The blacktop could be fitted but there are far more complications than are initially apparent, some parts of the engine have to be removed with a grinder to allow clearance, the engine mountings need modification, the pulley/water pump arrangement also needs modification and there is the ECU/ignition  to deal with etc. By comparison the silvertop seems a doddle!

The next task is finding a silvertop engine with sensible mileage, given that these were phased out for the blacktop in 1996, as far as I can ascertain, this probably wont be that easy, I will keep a lookout for either an engine or an old Mondeo thats been well cared for but has seen better days!

Andrew

On 1 December 2012 09:54, Jim Hearne <j...@quantums.info> wrote:

No, it’s a totally different engine, most similar to the twin cam used in the Sierra and Granada.

 

Jim

 

 

From: Andrew Owen

Sent: Thursday, January 31, 2013 8:09 AM

To: quantumowners@googlegroups..com

Subject: Re: [Quantum Owners] Silvertop vs Blacktop

 

Just looking into this a little more I am not all sure that the RS 2000 engine is a Silvertop.

On 31 January 2013 07:49, Andrew Owen <owen.and...@gmail.com> wrote:

As an alternative would the Mk6 Escort RS2000 engine be a good swop for an H4 with a 1995 Zetec1.6, I would guess the answer is yes as its a Silvertop from the same vintage?

 

I am particularly thinking here of the compatibility of ECU's and ignition circuits.

 

Additionally I have read that if using a 2.0 Zetec in a Fiesta (H4) the standard inlet manifold is the wrong shape/too big and the best one to go for is the RS 1800 manifold, I was wondering how this compares with the RS 2000 manifold in terms of size/shape.

 

Comments welcomed!  

On 30 January 2013 21:42, Ian Harrison <bigha...@googlemail.com> wrote:

There you go... :-)

Sent from my iPad

On 30 Jan 2013, at 20:41, TonyV <q...@avies.co.uk> wrote:

> I second the need to remove a lot of the sump webbing to fit the starter, but mine went into a north-south layout.
>
> Carbs are always an option if you don't want the expense of injection and ecus.
>
> The blacktop engines do have some other nice design features - such as the builtin windage tray in the sump, and on the 2 litre there are oil jets into the underside of the piston crowns.
>

> One other issue that people sometimes raise is the direction of rotation of the waterpump.  On the silver tops you can just change the pump, but there isn't an oem reversed waterpump for the blacktop.

> Plenty of people run it backwards without problems.
> I used a custom reversed impeller imported from the States.
>
> TonyV
>

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Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6076 - Release Date: 02/02/13

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IMPORTANT NOTE: All information presented herewith is provided on an "As Is" basis, without warranty or the implication thereof. Neither the Quantum Owners Club nor the individuals associated with the Quantum Owners Club or in the preparation of the above information shall have any liability to any person or entity with respect to liability, loss, or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly or indirectly by the instructions contained within this or related message(s).
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Version: 2013.0.2897 / Virus Database: 2639/6076 - Release Date: 02/02/13

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[The Colonel]

Hi Jon,

 

Yep, that is my understanding however a (supposedly more knowledgeable) friend said this isn't always a reliable indicator as sometimes they get sticky?!

 

Plus I have to admit that I can't remember and haven't even been near them in over a year! Will be heading over to the storage unit in the next few days and will have a check, sure there are some other bits I have forgotten. For starters, I fortgot to say that the Specialised engine was removed from a MK3 show Fiesta so is essentially ready to drop in to a Quantum, has a yellow painted block and has red Piper timing vernier pulleys that are also over £200 new.

[Jim Hearne]

If there are no driveshaft joints fitted you can also just look through the hole in the gearbox.

If theres a driveshaft sized hole right through with the smaller diff shaft crossing it at right angles then it’s an ordinary diff.

If theres only about 10mm dia hole through then it’s a Ford LSD

 

I don’t know what aftermarket diffs look like though.

 

Jim

 

 

From: The Colonel

Sent: Monday, February 04, 2013 9:36 AM

To: quantumowners@googlegroups..com

[Andrew Owen]

Hi Colonel

Whereabouts do you live?

Regards

Andrew

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[The Colonel]

Hi Andrew,

Deepest darkest Essex,

Regards Aaron