Presonus StudioLive64s control

[sftechguy]

Hi all...

I'm helping a local community theatre I work with figure out what soundboard to get to replace the 2 Yamaha 01V96i s they had that apparently took a lightning hit.  One of the consoles they are looking at is the above mentioned Presonus StudioLive64s.  I've read through the manual and done some investigatory googling, and what I can't find yet is any indication that this console will respond to MIDI or OSC commands.  It does not have any MIDI ports, but does have a network jack for "control".  They have their own "remote control" software, plus advertise/document that the board can be used as a control surface for a DAW, so some sort of control can apparently happen.  My question to the hive-mind here is does anybody have any experience talking to this thing from QLab, either by MIDI or network OSC cues? And if so, do you have any documentation as to the "command set"?

Thanks in advance...

-s

[Robert Kaplowitz]

It's been some years since I last touched one, but, back then, the Presonus StudioLive line did not have motorized faders or digital pots - it was basically an analog board with some LED's that lit up to tell you when the faders were in a different position from the last preset you stored, plus it worked as a USB audio interface.

Don't know if that's changed, but that was my experience...

[Seablade -]

I would highly suggest a different console.  On top of what was already mentioned, I have run into numerous of those with corrupted firmware, the scene management is poor at best and, not sure if this is still the case, but would mute the entire console on a scene recall, etc.  Apparently the AVB implementation for some of their devices was based off a preliminary spec, and doesn't play well with the actual spec.  This list goes on for a bit.

       Thomas

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[sftechguy]

The Series III line appears to have come quite a way from your description, but the limitations you mention are definitely things I should wary of.

[sftechguy]

That's a shame about the firmware issues and the AVB implementation shortcomings.  The scene management is not as much of an issue as our typical workflow is to have QLab actually doing all the muting on/off.

The really unfortunate thing is so far this board comes the closest to getting them back to the functional setup they were in before, which was 2 01v96Is, giving them 64 channels of "control". Assuming the issue of cracking the midi/osc control from QLab to the board gets solved, then we get pretty close.  I've never heard how one of these boards sounds, so that is another concern.

I appreciate the replies so far, and welcome more if anybody else has any thoughts.

-s

[Richard B Ingraham]

I believe a lot of the criticisms that have shown up here are somewhat dated (and some very out of date).  I think their series III consoles are much better than the old units which did have a lot of problems that essentially made them a nonstarter for theatre, even playback in my opinion, let alone mixing musicals.  Having said that, my experience is all based on demos with factory reps (and my local reps are no longer reps for Presonus, not sure what happened there) not experience in the field.  Playing with a unit for an afternoon is a lot different than doing a show.  I always wondered why Presonus hasn’t done more to cater to the theatre users.  They have a decent product albeit with middle of the road sound quality (which is weird since when they first started it was more about sound quality, that somehow morphed into a company that makes everything).  I used to bring up the limitations for theatre users with the reps or with factory folks when they did dog and pony shows.  Some things seem to have gotten better, their new desks certainly have enough DCAs (24 anyone?)  But the scene recall did leave something to be desired the last time I had my hands on one.  But to me that’s true of almost every damn desk out there.  The only companies that seem to get it, are all fairly pricey and even then almost all the implementations are clunky. 

 

With regards to AVB, the lack of a dependable operation between manufacturers seems to be an issue with almost all manufacturers.  It’s an open standard and so even now after all these years it’s a bit of the wild west.  As much as I don’t care for what I view the proprietary system of Dante (you have to buy their chips to make a Dante product), it almost always works.  Even that has made me swear sometimes though.  But I’ve always gotten it working eventually.  In speaking with contractors on job sites, that doesn’t always happen with AVB.  But few are using Presonus products.  And those that do only seem to use all Presonus AVB products, so of course their own stuff works with their gear.

 

Unfortunately I can’t help you at all with regards to controlling the console.  I highly recommend just calling them on the phone after NAMM is over.  If you buy one, make sure you can return it.  That is my plans to use their rack mount mixers for AVB I/O. for a personal project.  If it doesn’t work, I’ll just take it back.

 

As much as it pains me to say it, the best low cost option is the Behringer/Midas X32/M32 line.  I really hate patronizing that manufacturer.  Every time I start to feel like maybe they will be a better, more conscientious company, they show themselves incapable of doing that.  The latest being screwing over all their smaller dealers and now (or maybe it’s soon?)  you can only buy their gear at what they call major partners or something like that.  So only places like Sweetwater or others of that size can sell you Behringer gear.  And while I like Sweetwater and my personal salesperson there, I think that’s dirty pool on their part.  Plus it means I’ve even less likely to write their gear into a spec for a consulting project.  (full disclosure I never did anyway, except when someone asked me to do so..)  But having said all that, I’ve almost bought one myself a couple of times now.  They work well and you can use OSC to control them, the scene recalls built in are clunky but work for theatre and the third party X32TC software is probably the best tool I’ve seen for creating DCA cues for theatre and it bypasses the internal scenes all together so you can use those for other things.  For all the little 200 seat and under theatres it’s hard to beat.  You can chain two of them together to mix more than 32 channels.  It’s a hassle but works far better than a pair of 01Vs, which I’ve also done, many moons ago.

 

Good luck.

 

 

Richard B. Ingraham

RBI Sound

www.rbisound.com

[Simon VB]

Hi

Just chiming in here with a suggestion: do you know the Allen & Heath SQ series?

Maybe the SQ7 is what you're looking for: https://www.allen-heath.com/ahproducts/sq-7/

Not entirely sure it meets your needs though, as you haven't stated the minimum requirements and I didn't feel like checking out all the specs of the StudioLive64.

I do have experience with the SQ5 though and it's bloody brilliant, especially for its price. It also comes with a broad set of MIDI-controllable features, though not EVERYTHING can be controlled (as was the case with the O1V's, I believe).

It sounds great too, as it uses the same processing from the bigger brothers from the dLive-series. (Which are brilliant in their own right, but they're in a different price class.)

Check it out!

Best of luck,

Simon

[sftechguy]

Richard...  thank you for the extremely thorough and insightful reply.  There's a lot of good information there.  In terms of the Presonus, we'd most likely be able to avoid any AVB compatibility issues by purchasing Presonus stagebox(es) for the foreseeable future. However, the lack of end-user programmable buttons and the lack of any easily availableMIDI/OSC control documentation still gives me pause on being able to recommend this board.

My first instinct had been to go with the X32/M32 option. We put one in my church about a year and half ago and have been pleased with it and how it sounds.  I've even mixed some musical theatre on one at another venue here in town and did not hate the experience.  My hesitancy on outright recommending this option is the "blocks of 8" patching scheme.  Although I've not done the thought exercise to see if it would really be screwing me over, my gut feeling is that it might. Still, I am keeping them under consideration.

Simon... thank you for the recommendation on the A&H SQ7.  The quick read I have done on it so far is very promising.  I was even able to find official documentation on the remote control MIDI commands (I have not dug deep enough yet to see if they also support OSC).  And it has a multitude of user programmable buttons and knobs.  There's more manual reading for me to do, but I like what I've seen so far.

You are correct that I really didn't state what our requirements for a new board are, though the suggestions folks have made have been pretty well in line with them.  To summarize, in case there are more suggestions, they are (in no particular order):

• ideally, 32 faders of control on a single layer, 64 faders of control in total
• DCA groups
• mute groups
• at least 4 effects units, ideally with dedicated sends
• programmable buttons/knobs that can send MIDI or OSC
• documented MIDI or OSC remote control (primarily so I can make QLab do all the work)
• flexible and straightforward patching/routing
• USB audio interface (i.e.audio in/out to a computer over USB)
• offline editor
• digital snake (choose your poison on AVB vs. Dante vs. MADI)
• tablet or phone-based remote control (for tweaking things away from the sound booth)

These are roughly based on what we could do, and things we wanted to do but couldn't, with the 2 Yamaha 01V96i board system they are having to replace. I hope most of those made some kind of sense.

Again, thanks to everybody for your input so far... it has been extremely informative and fun to read.

-s

[Seablade -]

Responding inline:

On Tue, Jan 26, 2021 at 12:32 AM sftechguy <scott....@gmail.com> wrote:

My first instinct had been to go with the X32/M32 option. We put one in my church about a year and half ago and have been pleased with it and how it sounds.  I've even mixed some musical theatre on one at another venue here in town and did not hate the experience.  My hesitancy on outright recommending this option is the "blocks of 8" patching scheme.  Although I've not done the thought exercise to see if it would really be screwing me over, my gut feeling is that it might. Still, I am keeping them under consideration.

My reservations about the company being the same as Richard's a few things to note.

I believe the recent firmware addresses the block of 8 option IIRC.  Also if mixing musical theater, you should ABSOLUTELY use x32tc, it turns the x32/m32 into a completely usable theatrical console and is available free.  Fantastic piece of software.

 

You are correct that I really didn't state what our requirements for a new board are, though the suggestions folks have made have been pretty well in line with them.  To summarize, in case there are more suggestions, they are (in no particular order):

• ideally, 32 faders of control on a single layer, 64 faders of control in total
• DCA groups
• mute groups
• at least 4 effects units, ideally with dedicated sends
• programmable buttons/knobs that can send MIDI or OSC
• documented MIDI or OSC remote control (primarily so I can make QLab do all the work)
• flexible and straightforward patching/routing
• USB audio interface (i.e.audio in/out to a computer over USB)
• offline editor
• digital snake (choose your poison on AVB vs. Dante vs. MADI)
• tablet or phone-based remote control (for tweaking things away from the sound booth)

The real killer in that market segment is the need for input channels.  Many smaller consoles only have 32-48 input channels.  For instance the Sq7 which is, I agree, a great choice with the exception of the lack of a similar option like x32tc for musical theater, is only 48 channel.

Almost everything else you listed though most things in that market segment support.

    Thomas Vecchione

[Sam Kusnetz]

Scott

It's more expensive than what’s been listed, but the Yamaha CL series of consoles covers your stated needs perfectly, and is comparatively easy to learn and profoundly reliable. The QL series of consoles may cover your needs and is cheaper, but I have less hands-on experience with them.

Yamaha’s integration of Dante into the CL and QL consoles is very well done and very straightforward, and I think it’s beyond proven that Dante can be depended upon. Dante has been the audio backbone for nearly every show I’ve done in the last ten years.

The CL and QL iPad remote control apps are absolutely adequate in all areas, and quite good in a few areas.

People often say “you get what you pay for” which I think is true, but it’s also true that “you pay for what you get,” by which I mean that nothing is free. If you buy a less expensive console, you’ll save money up front but may end up spending something else instead, most likely time.

(Please note, these are not the official opinions of Figure 53. This is just my personal take.)

Best
Sam

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Sam Kusnetz [he/him/his] (what is this?)
Figure 53
https://qlab.app | https://figure53.com

[Mark Valenzuela]

In the fall of 2019 I went through a similar search - looking for a small format console to replace my own 01V96, used for small scale musicals and one-off events. I REALLY wanted a QL1, and would have bought one immediately had it been within my price range. As Sam mentioned, if you have the budget for it, it should be at the top of your list. Ultimately I bought an M32R, and you’ll be happy to know that the patching scheme has changes with their newest firmware. More on that below....

I ruled out the Presonus quite quickly, but I don’t remember why. MIDI or DCA limitations, perhaps, or lack of expansion card slots?

I almost bought an SQ5 (I was looking for consoles with 16 across, not 32), but ended up also ruling it out. I don’t remember all the specifics, but my notes are telling me that there was no way to recall-safe certain parameters with DCA’s (I think that meant you can toggle recall-safe fully ON or fully OFF for the whole bank of DCAs, and that’s it - no way to recall-safe just one DCA or just certain parameters). There is also something in my notes about not being able to use scene recall to fire a MIDI command - for firing cues in QLab, for example. I don’t know if it works the other way around - firing a scene recall command FROM MIDI - which is certainly also useful. Worth looking into further. 

Ultimately, I bought a Midas M32R. I was hesitant to go the Behringer route for many reasons, but it really was the closest to having everything I wanted, including the modern touches like iPad integration, which is why I’d ruled out some of the older and otherwise useable Yamaha consoles. I’d put my hands on an X32 and was disappointed in the cheapie look and feel, so I went with the Midas. 

I only got to use it twice before Covid shut everything down, but I was very happy with its performance. And the bank of 8 patching scheme problem has been fixed! It’s still a little clunky to set-up, but the flexibility is there (finally). So the console still thinks in banks of 8, but within the new v4 firmware, there is a User layer where you can create custom banks of 8. You then assign these banks of 8 to the internal patch bay (same as before), which then makes them “useable” I/O, ready to be assigned to any channel. It is an extra step that doesn’t totally seem necessary, but once you get it, it’s quite straight forward. And once those custom banks are created, then assigning individual channels is very quick and easy. 

I’ve found the console quite useable in other ways too. The iPad app is quite good, and the offline editor works well enough. Somewhat surprisingly, I became a quick convert to the whole Scenes AND Snippets functionality, which seemed unnecessary at first, but really does add a lot of flexibility. I only got to play around with X32TC, but it looks amazing, and seems to solve a lot of the X/M32 limitations.

And finally, for better or worse, it’s become a very common console for theatre, at least in certain markets. For me that meant that I knew I’d be able to rent it to other companies and designers, and it was likely the’d already know their way around it. 

All sorts of things may have changed since I did my search, but this is the conclusion I came to. 

Best,

Mark

On Jan 26, 2021, at 12:32 AM, sftechguy <scott....@gmail.com> wrote:

Richard...  thank you for the extremely thorough and insightful reply.  There's a lot of good information there.  In terms of the Presonus, we'd most likely be able to avoid any AVB compatibility issues by purchasing Presonus stagebox(es) for the foreseeable future. However, the lack of end-user programmable buttons and the lack of any easily availableMIDI/OSC control documentation still gives me pause on being able to recommend this board.

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[ivan.bi...@thelir.ie]

Hi Scott,

Just a note on Sam's recommendation of Yamaha CL and QL - these are both really good, just stay away from the TF series, while also good in many way there are a number of issues with these desks that shouldn't have made it to manufacturing.

Regards,

Ivan