Camera cues and equipment questions

[Steven Lemke]

Getting ready to purchase a couple of Panasonic Remote PTZ cameras, Controller and Mixer to complete my set up for a show that I am trying to simplify and I want to make sure it will all work before I drop 30k. 

My main purpose here is to avoid dealing with Video Companies not providing the required equipment to execute things such as camera fades within PIP, etc. as well as having to train camera operators for each performance in a different city.

Please let me know if you see any flaws in my thinking.-

2 Panasonic AW-HE130 cameras feeding a Panasonic HS-50 mixer and controlled with the AW-RP120 controller. 

All connected with Cat5e cable using POE+through network hub. 

SDI output of HS-50 feeds the Black Magic UltraStudio Mini Recorder and connects to MacBook Pro with Thunderbolt. 

Use Camera cue to place PIP over a continuous running background with PNG image as border around PIP. 

Output video from Thunderbolt to Black Magic UltraStudio Mini Monitor to feed Projector.

Is it possible to use QLab to trigger my camera moves through the AW-RP120? Perhaps using midi or other commands or scripts? Does anyone have much experience with this type of set up? 

I appreciate all of your help. This group is a great resource!

Steven Lemke

[Alexander Taylor (Mailing List)]

I may have missed a response on this, I’m working on a bit of an email backlog.  Please excuse me if this has already been said…

I’m jealous of your equipment!  I’m looking to install 3 Sony SRG300SE cameras with the RM-IP10 controller.  I’d also like to control it via QLab as part of my big video automation project.

I assume you’re going over coax SDI from the cameras to the switcher, with Cat5 control.  If you’re pulling cable, may I suggest running at least Cat 6 cable.

Have you gotten video out from QLab into the BMD TBolt Mini Monitor?  I thought QLab could only output to display-like devices.  As far as I know, that device doesn’t operate like that.  I use the HDMI output of a Mac Mini with a converter to SDI to handle that problem.  I’d love to know if you have a solution.

I’d love to know how you solve the control problem, I’m looking to automate my ATEM video switcher and Sony cameras, all operate over IP.  I know QLab can handle that, but I’d rather not have to write a different program to handle the translation to OSC or something.

Alexander

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[Steve Lemke]

My understanding, and I'll know more when I get the gear demoed next week, is that power, control and signal can all travel down the cat5/6 cable and get split at the router. I'll let you know. As far as what QLab can output to, I need to look more into that. Perhaps your hdmi solution will work. Still not sure if QLab will recognize the output from the switcher or if it needs the camera to be connected direct.

One thing I'm concerned about is latency. I really can't afford much as the camera work is live orchestra and it really looks bad when the sound doesn't match the picture. I'd love to hear people's experiences with different set ups.

Thanks for your comments.

Steven

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[Joshua Langman]

QLab does support all Blackmagic DeckLink, Intensity, and Multibridge devices.

[Alexander Taylor (Mailing List)]

I know that’s true for input devices, but I thought it wasn’t true for output devices.  Maybe that changed and I missed it, that would be great!

Alexander

On May 1, 2015, at 9:41 PM, Joshua Langman <jlangma...@gmail.com> wrote:

QLab does support all Blackmagic DeckLink, Intensity, and Multibridge devices.

[luckydave]

On May 1, 2015 at 6:43:58 PM, Alexander Taylor (Mailing List) (alexand...@orol.org) wrote:

I know that’s true for input devices, but I thought it wasn’t true for output devices.  Maybe that changed and I missed it, that would be great!

With QLab 3.1, you can output to Blackmagic devices.

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luckydave

[Alexander Taylor (Mailing List)]

That’s outstanding!

Thanks,

Alexander

[Steve Lemke]

Thanks LuckyDave. Any idea of the throughput latency?

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[Sean Dougall]

Latency is almost certainly going to be a concern, I’d say. There are several stages in this setup where latency is getting introduced:

- Processing within each camera (?)

- Frame sync at the mixer input (up to 1 frame?)

- Blackmagic input into QLab (about 1-2 frames)

- Blackmagic output from QLab (about 2 frames)

You can at least cut out that last item by not using Blackmagic gear for output. If you need to feed SDI to the projector, Blackmagic’s HDMI-to-SDI converter apparently has latency of less than a line of video. The rest of it you may not be able to get around, though.

Disclaimer: Those Blackmagic figures are from memory, and gathered in not-so-scientific tests, but I believe they’re approximately right. There may also be variation between models that I’m unaware of.

Blackmagic output from QLab has its advantages, but it comes at a cost of both performance and latency. Their gear is designed primarily for fixed playback (e.g. from Final Cut Pro), where you can pre-buffer frames and play back without latency. QLab doesn’t have that luxury, because the final content to be output isn’t determined ahead of time, so it can only send out one frame at a time. That ends up using a different code path in Blackmagic’s driver, one that’s designed for showing a paused frame (so as far as the BMD gear is concerned, QLab is constantly paused), and therefore not apparently optimized for minimal latency.

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Sean Dougall

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[Steve Lemke]

Thanks Sean. That’s good food for thought. I may just go with the camera set up and leave the screen stuff to the video vendors.

Steven

[Gareth Risdale]

Am currently researching a similar setup for a tour in the autumn. Have you considered using QLab for control and playback only? i.e. Qlab output goes into the vision mixer and the PiP happens there. This is the direction I'm heading in as we can't have noticeable latency.

Gareth.

[Steve Lemke]

The only problem is that I need to use a custom border for the PIP which I can't do with the HS50. Currently, I have the video companies save the border in the Panasonic 410 from an SD card or into a screen pro II from an image capture but that process has proved difficult for some of the companies we have used which is the reason I want to control it all myself.

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[Andy Dolph]

What if you added the border in Qlab and then used the switcher to put the actual pip in the border that was already in the video?

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[Steven Lemke]

This is actually my first choice. I should be able to program the border to come in at the appropriate times with the PIP (camera cue). My real question is about latency and if what equipment to use to get the cameras (switcher feed) into the computer and then output the whole thing to projector. Has anyone used the Blackmagic UltraStudio Express? Would it be a better choice than the MiniRecorder and MiniMonitor? Should I use something other than Blackmagic for output like a DataVideo DAC-70?

[Alexander Taylor (Mailing List)]

I can’t speak to the different types of Blackmagic devices, but there is a significant difference between the Blackmagic Mini Monitor and UltraStudio and the DataVideo DAC-70.  The BMD devices are Thunderbolt, while the DV DAC-70 converts the computer’s HDMI output to SDI.  Very different paths to take with those two.

Alexander

[Andy Dolph]

If it were me, I would tend towards using the computers hdmi output into a DAC70 - no fooling with black magic drivers.

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[Steve Lemke]

Thanks Andy,

I agree that the DAC70 is the way to go for output to the projectors. What are your thoughts on input?

[Andy Dolph]

I think a black magic interface of some sort is the only way I can think of to do it...

[Sam Kusnetz]

Hi Steve

Blackmagic devices are the only way to get SDI signals into QLab.

Also, for the output side, it's worth noting that Blackmagic makes some very nice HDMI to SDI converters that are about half the cost of the DAC-70.

Cheerio

Sam

[Alexander Taylor (Mailing List)]

Though do note that the Blackmagic HDMI-SDI converters, while great, only convert the signal, and don’t scale/handle framerate for it.  Depending on the gear, you may run into problems on that end.

For instance, if you’re going into a switcher, you may have problems with 29.97p cameras and 30p computer output, but most projectors/monitors don’t care.  I learned that the hard way.

Alexander

[Steve Lemke]

So, I had a demo of the Panasonic cameras, switcher and controller today. What a great set up! We all learned something. I showed the “expert” that it said in the manual that it was possible to fade between images inside the PIP and we figured out how to do it. Also, there is GPI control for the switcher and controller so it should be possible to write MIDI cues in QLab and control PIP in/out as well as camera presets. If I can control PIP in/out and then have a PIP border come up in QLab at the same time, then I don’t need the mixer output to come into QLab as a camera cue. I can just size the PIP to fit inside the border and it should work fine. (Anyone with experience with GPI and MIDI cues feel free to jump in). If this works as we think it will, I will be able to save about 300k a year in video equipment rental.

Thank you all for your input and suggestions. I really value the experience that this group has to offer!

Steven