DiGiCo SD9 MIDI message loop

[Ethan Livers]

I'm currently using an SD9 And QLab 4.3.1 for a college production. I'm using Snapshots to recall mutes, fades and such. I have figured out how to recall snapshots on the board with midi commands from QLab and that the SD9 sends the same midi message it receives, back out. I want to be able to make QLab follow along if I press go on the board and also still be able to activate ques from QLab. I can make the correlating cue in QLab trigger with the midi message from the board, which sends the midi message from QLab, but then when the board receives the snapshot trigger it sends the message out again so basically creating a never-ending loop. Is there a way to make QLab go to the cue without triggering a GO if it receives a message from the board?

Let me know if I didn't provide some any needed information, and thank you in advance for helping out.

-Ethan Livers

[Rich Walsh]

Don't set the incoming MIDI as the trigger on the originating cue itself – but rather, a cue that moves the playhead to that cue? Use the "If running, a second trigger: does nothing" option and set a sufficiently long post wait on the cues to make sure they are still running when the trigger comes back in? Use MidiPipe to intercept the incoming MIDI and parse it into the MSC required to move QLab's playhead to that cue?

Rich

[RJ Givens]

Could you trigger the console via OSC ( if you are on v987), and then trigger qlab via midi? Or don’t set cue triggers in qlab to be the same midi notes?


I don’t really have any experience triggering the console from external midi as when I Run shows, I fire everything from only the console so I only ever have one button to hit.



-RJ

[Rich Walsh]

How would that help the loop issue: QLab triggers console >>> console triggers QLab >>> loop?

Any way you implement the triggering – different protocols, different messages – you're still going to create a loop. Unless you set QLab to ignore the reply when you send a trigger out to the console – by making sure the trigger cue is still running.

Rich

[Ethan Livers]

I was able to figure out a way to do it and implement triggering of audio cues from the board. I used some GoTo cues. I've attached a video of it working and the QLab file in case anyone has ideas on improving some items. 

I've been trying to convince my school to upgrade the board software so we can get OSC and some other features, but there are some hesitations of course.

-Ethan Livers

---

sd9.mp4

[Patrick Andrews]

I haven’t tried this to see if it works but it should “in theory”.
The console can only fire a snapshot via midi received on the control channel 16 (and up) found in the “Snapshot Control by Midi” window.
But firing a snapshot can send midi out in whatever format you want like control changes, program changes, note on etc.
So you should be able to have “Midi Recieved Fires Snapshot” checked, and have “Snapshot Fired Sends Midi” unchecked. And then go into the other midi menu on a per snapshot basis and send out a program change on channel 1 for example, and have that program change trigger the corresponding cue in Qlab. I don’t know if this is more work than what you’ve currently figured out or not but it’s an option (provided it works in real life and not just in my head:)

[Rich Walsh]

This is about preventing feedback loops, not which messages the console can send. The issue is NOT that QLab is being triggered by the same message it sends out – it's NOT a direct hardware feedback loop. You could use GPI to trigger a giant robot finger to push GO on QLab, but you’d still have to deal with these two loops:

1. GO QLab >>> ||: recall snapshot >>> trigger QLab :||
2. Recall snapshot >>> ||: trigger QLab >>> recall snapshot :||

You need these to be:

1. GO QLab >>> recall snapshot >>> STOP
2. Recall snapshot >>> trigger QLab >>> STOP

Having watched Ethan’s video I realised that my post wait solution would only break the first loop – the second one would only STOP after QLab had also fired.

The GoTo solution – ie: triggering QLab without QLab sending a snapshot recall – seems to be the best way of breaking both feedback loops.

Although, if you could have the console send OSC you'd have the option of /workspace/{id}/playbackPosition/{cue_number} – a way of moving the playhead without firing any cues (there isn't an equivalent in MSC).

Rich

[Patrick Andrews]

Ahh right. I clearly didn’t think that all the way through. As usual you are correct Rich :)

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[opusaud...@gmail.com]

I need some help and think one of you fine folks will be able to provide it, since it is related to this discussion thread.

We have a new SD9 console and I'm having trouble getting it and our QLab iMac to communicate via MIDI. This seems to be a device-to-device issue, not a matter of MIDI settings per se. (I had no trouble getting QLab and our old console -- a DM1000v1 -- to talk back and forth in MIDI, and understand the limitations of MIDI on the SD9.) My goal is to be able to fire snapshots from with QLab on the current show (in tech right now -- about 100 sound cues, plus 15-20 console moves for microphone control, in 90 minutes) and have consistent two-way communication for future shows.

Our system:

QLab v3.2.15

iMac 21.5" (Late 2009)

Mac OSX 10.10.5 (Yosemite)

SD9T latest software update

QLab channels get from the iMac to the Console via DANTE Virtual Sound Card, running through a switch, into the DANTE port

There is a WiFi router connected to the console which is used to allow use of an iPad remote control into the network port.

WAVES server running to the WiFi router

There is a second output from the WiFi router to the WAVES port on the SD9

For testing purposes while the iMac is in use for rehearsals, I have my personal late-2017 MacBook Pro, running the same version of QLab. I've got access to the WiFi

I've been trying to use ipMIDI and the Network MIDI function of Audio MIDI Setup but with no success. One of the messages I keep getting is "xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx:5004 didn't respond to the connection request." I quit the SD9 program and took a look at the WinXP setup -- the firewall is off and both TCP and UDP are set to accept communication through any port.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. The ones that get me up and running even more so.

Cheers,

Terry Gray

[Rich Walsh]

You'll have to forgive me if I've missed an announcement somewhere but:

1. There is no network MIDI client running on a DiGiCo – are you saying you've installed some software in Windows on the console? Seriously, I would check with DiGiCo about that as I think that would be extremely ill advised.
2. Even if there were, I believe there are challenges in getting Apple's implementation to talk to a Windows network MIDI client without resorting to third party software on the Mac (?).
3. There is no network MIDI client running on a DM1000: you must have been connecting via the USB interface?
4. There is no native Dante port on the SD9; you need a console with a DMI slot (SD12, S21, etc) or an Orange Box – so you've not described your setup accurately.
5. I would say it is a _very bad idea_ to go mucking around in the embedded Windows system that the SD software sits on; there are a few specific things DiGiCo support, but I don't think fiddling with the firewall is one of them… It's safest to just ignore the fact that (unlike a Yamaha) the underlying OS of a DiGiCo looks like something you might be familiar with. Don't fiddle, unless you want your console to fall over.

The short version is: you need to run a bit of string into the MIDI IN port on the console as that is the only place the SD software is looking for MIDI. I don't know how you got round that with the DM1000. You need a MIDI interface for your computer(s) with a 5-pin DIN out on it. 

Rich

[Federico Bianchi]

Hi,

Best way is to use OSC commands, more flexible then MIDI; On SD series the only way using MIDI is to work on channel 16 and control changes (as indicated in the snapshot panels); anyway, using correct OSC message you can have a full control of the thing.

In example you can recall a snapshot using OSC: /Snapshots/Recall_Snapshot/1 (1 is the number of the snapshot to recall)

Using a software to grab the messages (i.e. OSCulator) you can identify all messages sent and received in a bidirectional communication (using iPad to find functions)

Cheers

Federico

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[Rich Walsh]

You could just ask them for the OSC API: it's not on their website, but they were happy to send me a copy when I contacted them (provided I didn't release it into the wild)… Interestingly it has that command as /sd/Snapshots/Fire_Snapshot_number/1.

Rich

[opusaud...@gmail.com]

Hi Rich,

Thanks for the quick, and informative response.

This SD9 is part of a complete audio upgrade at the theater I work in quite a lot. The upgrade was done in July and August, and  one of the problems is that there was no Master Audio Engineer on staff to oversee it, so too many people had their hands on it. There's still no MAE, but the previous person and I have been working on cleaning up the things that got sideways. Among them is clear and consistent labeling of all the CAT cables. My involvement with the installation was a couple of days testing, troubleshooting, and tuning the system in the other performance space.

Now to the stuff you brought up.

1) Which means I cannot run MIDI over the network. Good to know.

2) OK. Not having admin privileges on the iMac means adding software is a non-starter.

3) Yes, the DM1000 was connected through USB. Also had a DANTE card installed for QLab audio.

4) Correct, we have an Orange Box. I believe it's at the amp rack.

5) I am much smarter than to try adding software to the WinXP layer of the console – or make changes to it willy-nilly. All I did was go in and look at the settings.

So the answer is to find a USB-MIDI interface that the iMac likes. I have three: a MIDISport 2x2, an EMagic 2x4, and an Edirol UA-25. So far none of them seem to be talking to the iMac, and I can't find drivers for any of them to run on OSX 10.13.6. There is an Edirol driver for Yosemite; all I need is an admin to let me install it on the iMac.

Cheers,

Terry

[Rich Walsh]

The anniversary edition of the MIDISport 2x2 is class-compliant (driverless). Having blown all that money on a Waves SoundGrid it might be worth getting a new MIDI interface too…

Rich

[opusaud...@gmail.com]

Hi again Rich,

I stopped on my way in and got a replacement for my UA-25 that has class-compliant MIDI in it. Plugged it into my MBP, connected to the console, built  a couple of test cues and was in business with two-way communication. Moved the interface to the iMac and built all of the show control cues I need. Am now dropping them into the mast cue list.

I also talked to the theater's assistant TD about getting a MIDI Sport 2x2.

Thanks again for all your insights. They pointed me in the right direction and that's what I really needed.

Cheers,

Terry

[Rich Walsh]

As I said, you'll need to contact DiGiCo for their OSC API as they have good reasons for not making it generally available. Have you at least configured the console to work with their iOS app, which communicates via OSC?

Rich

On 18 Jun 2020, at 18:46, Omer Barzily <rosh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Rich.

I've read your post and tried to send the sd/Snapshots.... message to my SD11 with no success.

I was trying to control the desk's faders and couldn't find any documentations regarding their use of the OSC protocol.

Please send a message if you have a moment to help me with that.

Thanks

בתאריך יום רביעי, 31 באוקטובר 2018 בשעה 12:49:41 UTC+2, מאת Rich Walsh: