[QLab] Media Server Integration

[Logan Best]

Does anyone know of any good media servers and Video Distribution Amplifiers QLab can interface with? I just finished up a production where I had 2 1GB GFX cards that were getting bottlenecked from the amount of footage I was streaming to 5 different projectors and felt like this was the best approach to eliminating all glitches and latency in footage.

Logan Best
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[Ted Pallas]

Brandon Epperson over at Venom Design has built a gnarly little box that doesn't break the bank on a rental.

http://venomdesign.net/

Ted Pallas
Live Media Designer
Sandwich Construction Consultant
ted dot pallas -at- gmail dot com
516.286.9661

[Logan Best]

Half of that site is broken and links to an expired domain. Are they still in business?

Logan Best

[Logan Best]

One thing I've noticed while researching media servers is that they primarily run on Windows... Are there any OSX / Linux based media servers that are compatible with QLab control and/or have their own control programs for OSX? I'd really like to stick with QLab when I start using a media content server not only because the show is already built on it, I've already learned QLab in and out within 2 weeks and would rather not have to rebuild the show and relearn a new program but I will if I have to. I'm willing to do anything and spend any money to insure that the media is run as smooth as possible.

Logan

On Mar 17, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Ted Pallas wrote:

[Matthew Haber]

It's not quite a media server but Isadora can be readily controlled via MIDI from QLab and it runs on OSX. Why does it have to run on OSX? You're not planning to use one computer to run both QLab and the media software are you? 

Matthew Haber

Theatre Designer

www.matthewhaber.com

(617) 435-9257

[Logan Best]

No. The problem I'm facing is that our workflow is entirely mac based. I know all platforms flawlessly but I'm concerned about mixing platforms. An ideal setup would be to have a media server of any kind or platform that has preinstalled software and services for media management and media playout that can be controlled by midi or rs232 via QLab. We essentially have a very high budget and are willing to get whatever we need to have a smooth show. For the first 4 day production we did run media and software out of one 12core mac pro and there were latency issues that i'd like to eliminate for the next 6 week production in august. 

I'm open to any robust workflow for achieving this with any cost necessary. Some stats of note:

We have about 250 video elements and 400 audio elements

4 FireWire unibrain fire-I cameras for live video

And 5 projectors needing dedicated outputs. 

--

Thanks,

Logan Best

IT Specialist

SCAD Web Manager Director

c: 615.838.4978

[Matthew Haber]

Are you open to renting a system running on dedicated hardware? If money is more or less no object, I would rent something like a Dataton Watchout system (5 playback computers and a master computer) or a Hippotizer HD with a pair of TripleHead2Go Digital Editions.  Either setup could support your live inputs and 5 outputs and can be controlled or triggered in varying degrees of complexity via MIDI. At that point though, doing much in the way of control via QLab is probably not that efficient for you to program since it will mean that you just have to program each cue twice, once in the media server and once as a MIDI cue in QLab. I'm not totally clear on what level of integration you are looking for between QLab and the server. Do you just want to trigger preprogrammed cues in the server or to you actually want to control the contents of the cues (opacity, content, etc) via MIDI?

Matthew Haber

Theatre Designer

www.matthewhaber.com
617-435-9257

[Logan Best]

QLab is not a necessary component in this equation. It would only be an easier integration because the show is already programmed However I am willing to do it again now that the hard part is done. I guess a better and more hardened approach is to trigger preprogrammed cues in the server because if I need to change any of the media at this point I can do it in the server and not have to worry about the op having to change stuff. 

Sent from my iPhone.

--

Thanks,

Logan Best

IT Specialist

SCAD Web Manager Director

c: 615.838.4978

[Matthew Haber]

I would agree that it would probably make the most sense to control things directly in the server. I have a good amount of experience programming Watchout, Arkaos, Isadora, Hippotizer, and several other media applications so feel free to shoot me an email off the message board if you have any questions about various programs/servers pros and cons in my experience.

Matthew Haber

Theatre Designer

www.matthewhaber.com
617-435-9257

[sam kusnetz]

my brief experience with watchout is sufficient to make me hope i never see it again.

isadora has great flexibility, but it requires you to build your own software tool, which doesn't sound like what you're after.

if you have the budget, i would look at getting an axon or a hippo. for control, you can use the inbuilt control mechanism, qlab, or a DMX or artnet device such as an ETC ION or EOS.

cheers
sam

[Christopher Ashworth]

Hi Logan,

I'm confused: Is there a reason not to just add more QLab machines?

I don't say this in a "I think everyone should always use QLab" kind of way. But you already have the show programmed in QLab, you're looking for something that works on a Mac, and you just need to distribute playback across a few machines since one machine isn't handling 5 projectors and 4 cameras on its own. To me the easiest answer seems to be just take the existing QLab workspace and split it across a few machines.

Best,
Chris

On Mar 17, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Logan Best wrote:

> Does anyone know of any good media servers and Video Distribution Amplifiers QLab can interface with? I just finished up a production where I had 2 1GB GFX cards that were getting bottlenecked from the amount of footage I was streaming to 5 different projectors and felt like this was the best approach to eliminating all glitches and latency in footage.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 9:27 PM, Logan Best wrote:

> One thing I've noticed while researching media servers is that they primarily run on Windows... Are there any OSX / Linux based media servers that are compatible with QLab control and/or have their own control programs for OSX? I'd really like to stick with QLab when I start using a media content server not only because the show is already built on it, I've already learned QLab in and out within 2 weeks and would rather not have to rebuild the show and relearn a new program but I will if I have to. I'm willing to do anything and spend any money to insure that the media is run as smooth as possible.

On Mar 17, 2011, at 11:12 PM, Logan Best wrote:

> No. The problem I'm facing is that our workflow is entirely mac based. I know all platforms flawlessly but I'm concerned about mixing platforms. An ideal setup would be to have a media server of any kind or platform that has preinstalled software and services for media management and media playout that can be controlled by midi or rs232 via QLab. We essentially have a very high budget and are willing to get whatever we need to have a smooth show. For the first 4 day production we did run media and software out of one 12core mac pro and there were latency issues that i'd like to eliminate for the next 6 week production in august.
>
> I'm open to any robust workflow for achieving this with any cost necessary. Some stats of note:
> We have about 250 video elements and 400 audio elements
> 4 FireWire unibrain fire-I cameras for live video
> And 5 projectors needing dedicated outputs.

On Mar 18, 2011, at 12:15 AM, Logan Best wrote:

> QLab is not a necessary component in this equation. It would only be an easier integration because the show is already programmed However I am willing to do it again now that the hard part is done. I guess a better and more hardened approach is to trigger preprogrammed cues in the server because if I need to change any of the media at this point I can do it in the server and not have to worry about the op having to change stuff.

[Matthew Haber]

Purely out of curiosity, what didn't you like about Watchout. I'll warrant that it isn't ideal for everything but I think that it excels in certain applications better then anything else does.

Matthew Haber
Theatre Designer
www.matthewhaber.com
(617) 435-9257

[Andy Dolph]

I'll second that - Watchout can be a wonderful tool under the right
circumstances...

though for much of what I do, I'd rather use a forthcoming Qlab3 with
edge blending capabilities...

Andy

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 7:04 AM, Matthew Haber
<matthe...@matthewhaber.com> wrote:
> Purely out of curiosity, what didn't you like about Watchout. I'll warrant that it isn't ideal for everything but I think that it excels in certain applications better then anything else does.

[Logan Best]

The only problem with that is floor real estate. I'm not sure how much room there will be for 3 or 4 mac pros. That's why I was opting for a rackmounted solution with a server that is primarily built for heavy media content serving.

Sent from my iPhone.
--
Thanks,
Logan Best
IT Specialist
SCAD Web Manager Director
c: 615.838.4978

[Matthew Haber]

Okay, that pretty much rules out Watchout since a 5 output Watchout system requires six computers. Pretty much any of the major media servers (Hippotizer, Axon, Pandora's Box, Catalyst, Arkaos etc) will do what you need and will come in a rackmount case. I would look into what is available locally in terms of rentals and go from there.

Matthew Haber
Theatre Designer
www.matthewhaber.com

617-435-9257

[Paul Gotch]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 08:17:14AM -0400, Matthew Haber wrote:

> Okay, that pretty much rules out Watchout since a 5 output Watchout
> system requires six computers. Pretty much any of the major media
> servers (Hippotizer, Axon, Pandora's Box, Catalyst, Arkaos etc) will
> do what you need and will come in a rackmount case. I would look into
> what is available locally in terms of rentals and go from there.

The thing is most media servers are Windows based in the same way that
most lighting desks are. Basically you should be treating it as a
black box which has an external interface that you poke. As long as it
works it doesn't really matter what is inside.

-p
--
Paul Gotch
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[Matthew Haber]

Paul's pretty much spot on about that.

Matthew Haber
Theatre Designer
www.matthewhaber.com
617-435-9257

[Eric Lott]

Don't think it is really what your looking for but, mac based video server: Pro Video Player.

http://www.renewedvision.com/pvp.php

Thought it was at lest worth mentioning.

Eric Lott

[Matthew Haber]

IIRC, as with Watchout, PVP only supports a single projector output per computer which would mean he would need 5 computers (4 w/ projector output and 1 with projector and operator output). I have also yet to find a company that rents PVP systems so he would have to buy $5k worth of licenses plus hardware.

Matthew Haber

Theatre Designer

www.matthewhaber.com
617-435-9257

[raymond soly]

how about http://www.modul8.ch/  

R

[Matthew Haber]

In my experience, Modul8 is a pain in the butt for intensively cued shows like the one described by the OP. It is great for some stuff but not for 400-650 video cues. I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't support 4 live inputs but I could be misremembering on that.

Matthew Haber

Theatre Designer

www.matthewhaber.com
617-435-9257

[dr.light]

most certainly still in business .... not sure why the site is busted - 

if you're serious about getting in touch with Brandon, let me know.

-jf

[Charlie Richmond]

On Fri, Mar 18, 2011 at 02:35, Christopher Ashworth <ch...@figure53.com> wrote:

Hi Logan,

I'm confused:  Is there a reason not to just add more QLab machines?

I don't say this in a "I think everyone should always use QLab" kind of way. But you already have the show programmed in QLab, you're looking for something that works on a Mac, and you just need to distribute playback across a few machines since one machine isn't handling 5 projectors and 4 cameras on its own.  To me the easiest answer seems to be just take the existing QLab workspace and split it across a few machines.

That was my reaction as well!  Glad to see someone shares it, Chris... ;-)

C-) 

[Logan Best]

Yea definitely a no go on Modul8, We have that and tested it out before we decided to go with QLab. I'll start contacting distributors and renters for Watchout, Hippo, and Coolux, Axon, and Arkaos and see what suits my situation the best. If anyone has a nice breakdown of the pros and cons of these solutions let me know. I'm very interested in getting this going asap.

Logan

[Andy Dolph]

I've been batting around this discussion in my head - and something
occurs to me - I wonder what the bottleneck in the single machine
approach is.

For instance, would an additional graphics card, or putting the OS on
an SSD and the media on another SSD (or RAID array of SSDs) maybe
solve it.

I don't know that any of the media server systems can really be
guaranteed not to glitch under the right load...

This may or may not be a good answer for Logan's situation, but I
think it's a very worthwhile discussion to have about how to determine
what the bottleneck is in a given rig - IE where the glitches are
coming from...

we've been talking around this lately, but I think it would be most
helpful to discuss a process for figuring out where the bottleneck is,
and then what (if anything) can be done to alleviate it.

I think often our tendency is to just throw "more then enough" power
at the problem, without really having a way to know what "enough" is.
For instance - if Logan does decided to do multiple Qlab machines,
does he need 5 (one for each projector) or would 2 do it, or 3.....
and how to know....

Thoughts?

Andy

On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Logan Best <lb...@scad.edu> wrote:

> Does anyone know of any good media servers and Video Distribution Amplifiers QLab can interface with? I just finished up a production where I had 2 1GB GFX cards that were getting bottlenecked from the amount of footage I was streaming to 5 different projectors and felt like this was the best approach to eliminating all glitches and latency in footage.

[Matthew Haber]

One thing to identify is whether or not you need things like edge blending, live masking, and output warping. Arkaos, for example, is not the best when it comes to more advanced projection manipulation but if you were using QLab, I'm guessing this isn't necessary. Watchout is pretty different from the others you listed. If you are okay with having 6 different computers going and you want it's sweet timeline setup that could be a good choice. Hippo, Pandoras Box, Axon, and Catalyst would all do what you want without breaking a sweat. Out of those in have worked with Hippotizers the most and I am a fan for many applications. Their dedicate hardware is very reliable. 

Matthew Haber

Theatre Designer

www.matthewhaber.com

(617) 435-9257

[raymond soly]

Sorry to have sorta've hijacked that thread somewhat by suggesting Modul8.....we find ourselves in a similar situation as the o.p.and both our production manager and technical director want us to use modul8 ..... against our better advice so, I needed to have some "unbiased" opinions from other posters on the subject without asking the question right out myself.....so thanks to all your suggestions, they have agreed that this might in fact not be the proper tool.....

a big thanks,

Ray