Letters or Numbers

[Chris Bakos]

So for as long as I can remember, Qlab has always allowed for the automatic numbering of cues. I always turn this feature off because light boards are stuck with numbered cues and sound always has to end up using letters to delineate cues. So, as a general question / survery, what do you use to differentiate your cues, letters or numbers? 

And by extension, will Qlab ever allow for the automatic lettering of cues? 

[ra byn taylor]

On Tue, Nov 13, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Chris Bakos <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:

So for as long as I can remember, Qlab has always allowed for the automatic numbering of cues. I always turn this feature off because light boards are stuck with numbered cues and sound always has to end up using letters to delineate cues. So, as a general question / survery, what do you use to differentiate your cues, letters or numbers? 

And by extension, will Qlab ever allow for the automatic lettering of cues? 

Speaking of number cues versus letter cues, 

I remember a show long long ago where the college SM told me that since Lights used numbers Sound had to use letters. 

To which I asked, once I get to Z, do I start at AA, BB, CC or AA, AB, AC, etc... That show ended up having more than 100 cues.

I asked how she planned to deal with the fly rail & spot cues if she had used up all the numbers on lighting?

For those of you who haven't thought about it, consider how much easier it is to misunderstand B,C, D,E,G,P,T,V,Z than any number...

* 

[Mike P]

I can't speak for everyone, but it's been my experience that lettered sound cues have been less common as sound designs have been becoming more intricate and going well over 26 cues. I still run into designers now and again who like letters, but for the most part I see numbers. I don't use the automatic numbering in QLab because I like to plan cue numbers out ahead of time and leave lots of room for internal growth without having to resort to point cues.

I number everything regardless of type and get very specific about which cues are which. Lighting and sound are simple enough, but I did a show a little while ago that had those as well as front animations and rear still images. This was a rework of a show that was originally done with slide projectors and the animation was added. To keep ourselves sane, we referred to the animations as Video cues and the stills and Projection Cues. That way it was simpler to keep them organized. So we had Ls, Ss, Vs and Ps.

Mike Post
(601) 307-8657
mdp...@mac.com
http://mdpostdesign.com

On Nov 13, 2012, at 11:06 PM, Chris Bakos wrote:

> So for as long as I can remember, Qlab has always allowed for the automatic numbering of cues. I always turn this feature off because light boards are stuck with numbered cues and sound always has to end up using letters to delineate cues. So, as a general question / survery, what do you use to differentiate your cues, letters or numbers?
>
> And by extension, will Qlab ever allow for the automatic lettering of cues?
>

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[Lucas Krech]

Personally, I've never understood why some sound designers use letters. But this is coming from the guy who has to sing the alphabet song every time he needs to remember if Q comes before R. The real concern IMHO is that "Quadruple bee" is more syllables than "80" and sounds dangerously close to "Quadruple dee" which in a fast show can mean getting it right or getting it wrong. I think I've worked with two sound designers in the last 4 or so years who have actually used lettered cues. The last time, the show got to quintuple G or something and became almost comical. The best were the cues added later "tripple d point 4" and the like.

-L

[Brendan Aanes]

Numbers all the way. It's been a while since I was around a show with less than 26 sound cues...

With lights, sound, rail, video, etc. on numbers, it tends to be helpful if the numbering can be set up so as not to overlap. I usually number by 5s, but will chnge it up if I can keep my numbers out of the range of lights, etc.

[Jeremy Lee]

Lettered cues are of no use to me. I've only been asked to do that maybe 2 times in 15+ years of this- mostly from SMs straight out of grad school. The answer is always no. To avoid number collisions, I always start my numbers at 100...

Jeremy Lee

- A thumb is a terrible speller. Please forgive my trespasses.

On Nov 13, 2012, at 11:06 PM, Chris Bakos <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:

So for as long as I can remember, Qlab has always allowed for the automatic numbering of cues. I always turn this feature off because light boards are stuck with numbered cues and sound always has to end up using letters to delineate cues. So, as a general question / survery, what do you use to differentiate your cues, letters or numbers? 

And by extension, will Qlab ever allow for the automatic lettering of cues? 

--

[Christopher Ashworth]

On Nov 13, 2012, at 11:06 PM, Chris Bakos <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> And by extension, will QLab ever allow for the automatic lettering of cues?

We won't be adding a built-in lettering tool, but this script works nicely:

http://wiki.figure53.com/QLab+Scripts+and+Macros#x-Batch%20adjusting-Renumber%20cues%20with%20letter%20names

[sam kusnetz]

i like to either start at ten and go by tens, or number my cues like this: XXyy where XX is page number and yy is cue on that page. so if there are three cues on page twelve, they're 121, 122, and 123.

it's not foolproof, but it certainly makes it easy to know what page a cue is on!

using letters always sucks for me. you can't use O because it sounds like GO, you can't use N because it sounds like M, you can't use Q because "sound cue Q" sounds so ridiculous on headset... etc. plus the last time i did a show with fewer than 26 cues was... well, was before qlab.

sk
--
sam kusnetz, sound & projection design | USA-829
503.201.2591
s...@notquite.net

[Jeremy Lee]

I've seen the system based on page numbers before, and am not really a fan.  Many scripts go over 100 pages.  And when working on new scripts, pages change ALL the time...

On Nov 14, 2012, at 8:38 AM, sam kusnetz wrote:

i like to either start at ten and go by tens, or number my cues like this: XXyy where XX is page number and yy is cue on that page. so if there are three cues on page twelve, they're 121, 122, and 123.

it's not foolproof, but it certainly makes it easy to know what page a cue is on!

using letters always sucks for me. you can't use O because it sounds like GO, you can't use N because it sounds like M, you can't use Q because "sound cue Q" sounds so ridiculous on headset... etc. plus the last time i did a show with fewer than 26 cues was... well, was before qlab.

sk

-- 

Jeremy Lee

    Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829

        http://www.jjlee.com

[Chris Bakos]

Wow, this is kinda helpful. I have been told by every stage manager here in Houston at several different theaters that they prefer letters for sound and numbers for lights/electrics. I have used letters almost exclusively for the last 10 years. Some will say "Skip "Q, N..." and we usually go with 'AA, AB, AC..." 

The reason I ask is because I have a show that is in "GT" right now (and I am not done) and it is getting a bit ridiculous. Perhaps I need to just start saying no to letters as well.  

[Rich Walsh]

On 14 Nov 2012, at 13:21, Christopher Ashworth wrote:

> On Nov 13, 2012, at 11:06 PM, Chris Bakos <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> And by extension, will QLab ever allow for the automatic lettering of cues?
>
> We won't be adding a built-in lettering tool, but this script works nicely:

Could you add a tool that does sequence numbering, based on a prefix? I never number my cues with integers, so the renumbering tool isn't very useful for me...

I could write my own I suppose...

Rich

[Chris Bakos]

Nice! Note the removal of "Q" and other letters in his alphabet. 

[Jeremy Lee]

yeah.  Don't mean to be harsh, but it's time for those stage managers to grow up...

Just wait till you get to cue "FML"... ;-)

On Nov 14, 2012, at 10:21 AM, Chris Bakos wrote:

Wow, this is kinda helpful. I have been told by every stage manager here in Houston at several different theaters that they prefer letters for sound and numbers for lights/electrics. I have used letters almost exclusively for the last 10 years. Some will say "Skip "Q, N..." and we usually go with 'AA, AB, AC..." 

The reason I ask is because I have a show that is in "GT" right now (and I am not done) and it is getting a bit ridiculous. Perhaps I need to just start saying no to letters as well. 

[Jeremy Lee]

(obviously, showing that I need to grow up too...)

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[Lucas Krech]

I have a show that is in "GT" right now (and I am not done) and it is getting a bit ridiculous. 

Unless Cue GT is made by a nice bartender I'd say it's time to switch to numbers. ;-)

It is useful with multiple numbers to have them separated. I typically start lighting with 101 as lights up but video with 11. Act one lights are the 100s act two the 200s and video is same with tens and twenties. FWIW. Having a slightly different numbering system for sound is helpful but not necessary.

-L

Lucas Benjaminh Krech

Lighting and Video Artist

www.lucaskrech.com

646.263.8439

Vimeo.com/LucasKrech

Twitter: lucaskrech

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

"Where the light is brightest, the shadows are deepest." 

~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

On Nov 14, 2012, at 7:21 AM, Chris Bakos wrote:

Wow, this is kinda helpful. I have been told by every stage manager here in Houston at several different theaters that they prefer letters for sound and numbers for lights/electrics. I have used letters almost exclusively for the last 10 years. Some will say "Skip "Q, N..." and we usually go with 'AA, AB, AC..." 

The reason I ask is because I have a show that is in "GT" right now (and I am not done) and it is getting a bit ridiculous. Perhaps I need to just start saying no to letters as well.  

[John Leonard]

In forty years of doing sound design in the UK, I have never - and I mean never - used letters for cue naming, except occasionally for inserted point cues, but only when the stage manager has specifically requested it. (eg: Q45, Q45A, Q45B, Q46).

John

On 14 Nov 2012, at 15:21, Chris Bakos <christop...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Wow, this is kinda helpful. I have been told by every stage manager here in Houston at several different theaters that they prefer letters for sound and numbers for lights/electrics. I have used letters almost exclusively for the last 10 years. Some will say "Skip "Q, N..." and we usually go with 'AA, AB, AC..."
> The reason I ask is because I have a show that is in "GT" right now (and I am not done) and it is getting a bit ridiculous. Perhaps I need to just start saying no to letters as well.
>

[Gus Macdonald]

We have been using the convention with out the Q for all Activated Ques now for a while…

 

WARN LX Q34 – (said “standby el ex cue 34”)

WARN SND Q 43 – (said “standby sound cue 34”)

 

 

When you want to go…

LX34 and SND43 Go (said “LX 34 GO Sound 43 GO”)

 

Omitting the Q part of the dialogue give a little more certainty about what the Stage Manager is saying, especially if there is a fast section.. if you hear the word “cue”  in the warn/standby phase, is when you check your screen or paperwork that your on the right que. Look up at the stage and listen for your SND 43 GO.

 

The other convention is with sound cues, any level change only calls are point cues or letter cues if you have lots (I prefer the letter cues as point cues to distinguish it from LX so when you hear a letter, it might be reaching for a fader on a sound desk “gasp”), and new sound effects are whole cues. Lighting cues, what ever they want to do. Requires a reorder if you insert cues for long running shows.

 

Also, generally for QLAB, because it can do allsorts of things, we call all QLAB cues QLAB34 (or AUTO) GO – regardless of type.

 

Gus

 

 

[Rabyn]

And obviously letters / alphabets / etc... Change per language. Numbers don't. I think this is one of those "it makes sense to a college SM" so they try it. That was my case. Only happened once. We should all just refuse for all the logical reasons mentioned already. Or maybe we should use the Russian alphabet for those SMs that demand lettered sound cues but make them pronounce the cue letters correctly or the cue doesn't happen:)

[Charlie Richmond]

Of course, if the stage manager ran the show via a show control system that was electronically connected to the sound/video playback, light board(s), live sound console(s), rigging and special effects systems as has been done on cruise ships and in theme parks for the last 24 years, the need to verbally call cues would be dramatically reduced.

C-)

[Dominic Bilkey]

In which case Charlie should we send everyone home now...

Seems like a producers dream in live theatre... Till that radio mic stops working or the lamp blows in that mover...

D

On 14 Nov 2012, at 23:25, Charlie Richmond <charl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course, if the stage manager ran the show via a show control system that was electronically connected to the sound/video playback, light board(s), live sound console(s), rigging and special effects systems as has been done on cruise ships and in theme parks for the last 24 years, the need to verbally call cues would be dramatically reduced.

C-)

--

[Charlie Richmond]

On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 4:29 PM, Dominic Bilkey <dominic...@gmail.com> wrote:

In which case Charlie should we send everyone home now...

Seems like a producers dream in live theatre... Till that radio mic stops working or the lamp blows in that mover...

*sigh*  the never ending totally illogical argument....

C-)

 

[Johan]

I use numbers all the way and I often renumber to keep it clean.
Since I use Qlab to run all parts of my shows I really dont care much about what it does, only when to do it.
That info I put in the infofield.

if its a Midi/Sound/video/Light-cue  is of minor concern and I colourcode the different cues to make it more readable..
-

But... When you have a document with several cuelists in it the autonumbering isnt very tidy.

would be nice if the autonumbering could work on separate cuelists and with the option to choose letters for prefix/postfix

And

it would be nice also if one could choose to use the unique ID as a cue number, at least Id like an option to show/hide it.
In one show Ive used that hidden number because that was a very interactive piece with lots of loops to trigger.
To make sure all jumps went the right way the unique ID was very useful.

[Gareth Evans]

Hi all.

Just to share my 2 pence worth here. I've always used this simple logic when programming audio/video regardless of the software:

If the cue is an event which is triggered by the operator, it will have a number. If it is not, it does not and lives within a group.

If the cue is an audio or a group containing audio, it will have a whole number,

If it is a fade cue or group containing fades but no new audio cue, it will have a point number.

If the cue needs to be triggered from another cue-list, I will often use a short acronym or abbreviation to designate it. (ie STM=Storm).

Of course there have been show where whole new cues are added after the plot and can no longer conform to this system, but there is only so much you can do!

With regards to the show control debate:

Personally, I see the value of show control and eagerly use the techniques to solve situations as they arrive. However, until they day we can 'Automate or Control' the members of the cast, the audience, and the audible environment of the surroundings of the theatre, I can not see how we can expect to offer the audience an engaging experience when the 'performance' of the sound does not follow the performance of the show. We represent the audience who are there to have a live experience. What makes it live are those small subtle changes that an engaged team of operators can bring to an event whilst following the performance of the cast, who are in-turn responding to the audience. To remove this makes it little more than the theatrical equivalent of karaoke. Not to mention, the thought of single-person operated shows which contain motorised flying, stage-movement and other forms of scenic automation or pyrotechnic for that matter truly terrify me. Promoting this form of low-cost operation will continue a negative spiral of devaluing the skills of operators and engineers across the disciplines and reducing the engagement of the audience to the level of cinema. This will only further diminish the audience numbers leading to further aims of producers to reduce overhead costs. Show control can give us some great tools, but tools always perform best when used in the hands of a skilled person.

No disrespect intended. Just an honest personal opinion

G