[QLab] Soundcards with multiple ADAT outputs

[Gareth Fry]

Hi all,

So I'm looking at investing in new soundcards to take advantage of Qlab's
many many outputs, which are proving invaluable. How did I manage before
with only 16? ;-)

I am looking at Firewire interfaces that can provide more than 2 ADAT
outputs. So far I've found the Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe and the M-Audio
Firewire Lightpipe.

The Presonus Lightpipe looks good but uses the JetPLL technology, but this
doesn't work with ADAT-over-Cat5 technologies that I use a lot. See
http://www.audiorail.com/DoNotUse.htm

The M-Audio unit is somewhat less pro but largely has the same spec's but
appears not to use JetPLL that I can see.

Wondered if anyone had any relevant experiences with these units, or could
offer advice on alternative Firewire units that I've missed.

Regards,
g


Gareth Fry
Sound designer

Mobile: +44 7973 352669
email: gare...@hotmail.com
web: http://www.garethfry.co.uk


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[Luka Mustafa]

Hi Gareth,

have you considered MOTU 896 MK III. I have been using it for more than a year, occasionally with ADAT AD converters.

With this unit and 2 additional ADAT interfaces, you can have maximum 26 outputs, 10 of which are on the unit itself. There is also a second firewire port on the unit, which might make daisy-chaining possible, but I do not now whether this works flawlessly or not.

Best regards,
Luka

[Charles Coes]

I've had reasonable experiences with the M-audio units after some pain with the initial setup.  A firmware update didn't take and said that it did...

The MOTU 828 MKIII is a good option here, though I had a bad experience with the MIDI driver for this unit.  Not quite sure why but it would periodically crash MIDI for the entire system when used.  When not used it didn't seem to do anything, so running an edirol MIDI I/O alongside worked fine.

If you can go PCI based, the answer may be the RME Digiface.  Great drivers and 3 channels of ADAD I/O.

THe MOTU 2408s also have 3 ADAT I/Os

I hope that helps a bit.

Charles Coes
cco...@gmail.com 
www.charlescoes.com
"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller

[Richard B. Ingraham]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: qlab-b...@lists.figure53.com [mailto:qlab-
> bou...@lists.figure53.com] On Behalf Of Gareth Fry
> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 5:52 AM
> To: ql...@lists.figure53.com
> Subject: [QLab] Soundcards with multiple ADAT outputs
>
> The Presonus Lightpipe looks good but uses the JetPLL technology, but
> this
> doesn't work with ADAT-over-Cat5 technologies that I use a lot. See
> http://www.audiorail.com/DoNotUse.htm
>

That's an interesting link that I will have to contact AudioRail about
because they talk about the DigimaxFS not working with the AudioRail, yet
I've been using them with AudioRails both for inputs and outputs in
conjunction with an LS9 for over two years now in one venue I designed the
system for. And I have not had the issues they describe. But maybe it's
because my audio is only ever 1 AudioRail away from the connection the LS9?

I would double check with them about this and get some specifics before I
wrote it all off.

As for the M-Audio Pro Fire Lightbridge, every time I run into this
particular unit I want to drop it off the highest balcony I can find. On
both Mac and PC it has been nothing but a hassle for me with worst case not
being able to get the device recognized by the OS at all and at best it
occasionally disappears, which obviously is not a good thing. And in
addition most of the M-Audio interfaces require that you reload firmware to
the units every time you switch from Win to Mac OS. Obviously not an issue
for some, but if you want to do that it's a hassle.


Richard B. Ingraham
RBI Computers and Audio
http://www.rbicompaudio.20m.com

[Rich Walsh]

On 18 May 2010, at 10:52, Gareth Fry wrote:

> I am looking at Firewire interfaces that can provide more than 2 ADAT
> outputs. So far I've found the Presonus Firestudio Lightpipe and the
> M-Audio
> Firewire Lightpipe.

I'm pretty sure that's your lot for more than 2 ADAT Optical outs (I
looked at _lots_ of interfaces trying to find one that would work with
SFX 5.6...). If you were looking at chaining interfaces together, the
Firefaces are designed specifically with this in mind (two 800s will
cost 4x as much as the Presonus!). On the Mac side, we have had no
issues with the Presonus or the Fireface 800.

Rich

[Gareth Fry]

Hi all,

Thanks for the advice. I'll have a play around. It sounds like the Presonus is the way to go.

Richard, to reply to you: JetPLL is a very real issue with the Presonus devices, but only in the instance that you are running ADAT audio back into them. If you are only playing out audio it works fine. It's when you're using the inputs and the outputs that you're screwed. I invested a lot of money into Presonus Digimax FS's to be DA/AD conversion on a system that had dsitributed DME24's and Digimax's all talking over RangeX ADAT over Cat5 network's. A lot of problems, eventually solved by downgrading to Behringer ADA8000's!  Obviously with QLab being a playout system it's not such an issue but i sometimes use Live for processing live audio, which makes it more of an issue. I'll try and experiment with a Presonus and report back!

cheers,

g

Gareth Fry Sound Designer Phone: +44 (0)7973 352669 Web: http://www.garethfry.co.uk 

[raymond soly]

Any one using this combo.....? live????? with mixer V5 and effects??

Ray

[Søren Knud]

yeeeaaahhh! and i love it :-)

anything in particular you want to know?

It is very stable in general, when running.

Only crashed while editing the core config of the mixer a couple of times. (wich i would NEVER do in a live situation).


Best,

soren

Den 19/05/2010 kl. 23.35 skrev raymond soly:

> Any one using this combo.....? live????? with mixer V5 and effects??

[raymond soly]

I jjust finished a series of shows where I had Qlab routed to reaper
and back out to a midas verona and that worked very well.......(all
process was from reaper, EQs and comps......) ........I have a
slightly more complex show coming in a few months with live vocals
etc....and was thinking of using the mic amps and processing from a
2882 expanded+dsp, ??? you say stable "in general"???other than the
core editing???

Thanks

Ray

[raymond soly]

actually, there is something you could perhaps explain,

I downloaded the V5 console...and I can't get multiple plug-in windows
open at the same time as in logic or reaper or others??? it just keeps
updating the main EQ or comp plug???
is this a limitation?

R

On 19-May-10, at 5:49 PM, Søren Knud wrote:

[Søren Knud]

> I downloaded the V5 console...and I can't get multiple plug-in windows open at the same time as in logic or reaper or others??? it just keeps updating the main EQ or comp plug???

I thought the same thing at first, but you just have to hold the shift button when clicking on other plugs.

best

[Steven Devino]

Yes to all

Steve Devino
http//:www.graniterockslive.com
Please pardon the iPad blunders

[Steven Devino]

I do about 10 to 15 shows per year where the 2882 provides the fooling:
Front of house speaker processing and matrix
Qlab I/o
Complete orchestra mixer
Up to 8 headphone mixes for the pit
Fill management
Vocal processing

Everything in my systems eventually goes through the 2882. I use 2 of them to get all of this done.

Steve Devino
http//:www.graniterockslive.com
Please pardon the iPad blunders

[raymond soly]

Great!

R
> best
>
> <Skærmbillede 2010-05-20 kl.
> 00.29.01.jpg>________________________________________________________

[raymond soly]

Hi Steve, from what I read you don't have a "Qlab redundant back up"??
any pitfalls you noticed in setting this up?? any particular
situations to avoid etc..?

Ray

[*]

Hi Raymond,

I'm actually sitting here with my new (2) 2882s & thought I'd share a few
things.

I've crashed the MIO console a few times doing things that would crash any
computer. Not because I'm stupid but because there are new options that
I've never had before & so there is an inherent learning curve.

CRASH 1 - due to assigning the mirror record folder the same as the main
record folder. The current MIO console version is a bit confusing as to
what is what in the preferences. Now that that I know how it works (Apple
fixed something & broke it for MH) I haven't had this issue again. So
there is still room to make this or other mistakes regarding where files
are going but no doubt MH will figure out what to do.

CRASH 2 - due to the ability to route anything input to any output & buss,
I've made an assigning mistake a few times that basically sends something
back to itself. In this case, the relevant channels in MIO go nuclear & I
haven't figured out how to clear it besides a reboot. A few times I've had
to remove all power to the MIO devices to solve the issue. Again, not the
hardware or softwares fault.

CRASH 3 - due to having a mirror folder assigned to an external HD but
then shutting the mirror drive down & then trying to record in the MIO
record console again. Spinning wheel of death. I had to hard restart my
computer.

So three crashes & none of them MH's fault directly but due to the
complexity of the interface & the near infinite mixer configuration
options, I would strongly suggest that anyone planning on using a MH
device buy it with plenty of time to go thru the learning curve.

I cut it real close to not making it thru my first (2) recording sessions
because I still didn't know enough to be good at using it all.

I purchased thru Steve Devino who has provided almost realtime tech
support thru out the process. I also got a great email from John Leonard
regarding my game plan. I think the general concept is this...

"In exchange for the power & flexibility of MH, you need to leave time to
learn how to wisely use it before you ruin a show or recording."

If you don't understand the basics of the V5 console, there will be no
audio. The video tutorials help alot but there is still a lot of
information I feel is missing. But I'd rather have a great product & have
to work for the manual than to have a thick manual & crappy sound:)

I can honestly say that I watched all the videos & read the manual over &
over & still found missing information that only Steve & MH tech support
was able to provide.

I've also joined a few of the MH user groups so I can get more feedback.

So don't order a MH device on a Monday & hope to be making sound on Friday
evening.

Not only is there a wait (I waited (2) weeks to have mine ship) but once
it comes it will fry your brain the first few times you sit down with it.
At least that was my experience. Having a dealer like Steve who not only
uses the product himself but beta tests it too is pretty nice:)

Now for the good news!

I'm spoiled. I'm in love. I don't think words can actually express the
difference between this box & all the rest. I own an RME FF800 & I'll
probably keep it as an extra set of 8 inputs via ADAT but even if the
boxes sounded the same (I actually think the MH sounds better but I
haven't done any tests yet), the ability to have (8) sweet sounded mic
pres instead of 4 & onboard DSP is a no brainer. To be able to record a
dry & processed version of the same inputs inside MIO is awesome. To be
able to use it as a DSP plugin box puts it in a completely different
category really.

Did I mention how good it sounds?

My only disappointment is the fact that at this point there is no way to
monitor all the inputs on the same device without sub mixing. The current
work around is to use up the ADAT out on one of them & the ADAT in on the
other one to bring in the other 8 inputs. Works perfectly & fine but I'm
shooting for 24/96 which ADAT doesn't support. I think MH has mentioned
that they are working toward a way to share audio via the firewire
connection. If they can pull that one off...

I'll buy (2) more. 32x32 matrix with 32 mic pres, 32 adat I/O & on board
DSP:)

Make a hell of a front end for your Digital console. I'd like to hear a
MC7L outfitted this way.

The fact that the 2882 is a small box that you add rack rails to bothered
me initially but then I realized how cool it is to not take a rack but
just throw the naked 2882 in my laptop bag. This is actually one reason
why in hind site I'm glad I didn't sell the house to get 2 UNL8s. Plus
they don't do ADAT & require DB25.

Lastly, the Monitor Control is worth the price of admission. I bet you'd
have to spend at least as much for a digital Monitor Control that doesn't
have the flexibility much less the sound quality.

Did I mention how good it sounds?

Best Regards,

*

On Wed, May 19, 2010 5:06 pm, raymond soly wrote:
> I jjust finished a series of shows where I had Qlab routed to reaper and
back out to a midas verona and that worked very well.......(all process
was from reaper, EQs and comps......) ........I have a
> slightly more complex show coming in a few months with live vocals
etc....and was thinking of using the mic amps and processing from a
2882 expanded+dsp, ??? you say stable "in general"???other than the core
editing?

[Steven Devino]

This is community theatre. There's no budget for backups other running for a backup mixer. I avoid unnecessary complexity, risky open source software, multiple dependent programs etc. For instance I would rather use a mouse than a control surface because it avoids the midi interface, midi cables and control surface issues. I also avoid instantiating plugins etc during a show

Other than that I suppose a computer isn't any more or less reliable than a mixer or power amp.

Steve Devino
http//:www.graniterockslive.com
Please pardon the iPad blunders

[*]

Once I am finished with my recording sessions, I'll return to my ballet
gig & be using my 2882s for my redundant 8 output Qlab rig.

Two separate computers, external midi controller, separate I/O, auto
switcher...that's it.

So if there is something specific you want to know Raymond, write back.

It is true that some of the issues I've had have been caused by my
redundant system but in my mind, while the goal is 100% success, it
doesn't always go this way & the few times I've need to switch over, it
served the company well. So there is a balance between two of everything
that autoswitch & knowing that you've done your best given the budget.

I can only tell you that my stress level come show time is 1/2 as low as
when I ran on 1 machine & crossed my fingers. I think this is the best
reason to go redundancy.

Instead of, "open box office & begin refund process", "switch to the
backup please"...

Good stuff. I highly recommend it! But you have to understand what the
complexity adds to the failure possibility & plan for that too. I've begun
to run failure scenarios with my ops during down time. It doesn't take
them long to realize what to do IF

Best Regards,

*

On Wed, May 19, 2010 9:07 pm, Steven Devino wrote:
> This is community theatre. There's no budget for backups other running for
> a backup mixer. I avoid unnecessary complexity, risky open source
> software, multiple dependent programs etc. For instance I would rather use
> a mouse than a control surface because it avoids the midi interface, midi
> cables and control surface issues. I also avoid instantiating plugins etc
> during a show
>
> Other than that I suppose a computer isn't any more or less reliable than
> a mixer or power amp.

[Søren Knud]

Agreed- it is bit like the grandMA if any of you sound guys know that
lighting desk. Takes some time to get into- but once your're in- you
do stuff in no time that you would'nt think possible.

Some month ago- 2 speaker management boxes got 400V 30 min before a
premiere wich i operated (i did not do the cabling for the amp room :-)
Luckily i had my MIO in my laptopbag so i made a crossover for the
sub, mid and highs and called Rasmus Kreiner who came in lightspeed
and helped dial in the correct frequencies for the split filter, and
the MIO was out in the amp room getting bal i/o directly between the
mixing console and the amps.

We used Remote desktop between my laptop+mio in the amp room and
Kreiners laptop and could bring up the mio console from the audience
seatings.

I even disconnected my laptop from it, after setting it up- so it
could act standalone.

The premiere started a's scheduled. - Guess who got an extra glass of
champagne that night ;)

Best

Den 20/05/2010 kl. 04.05 skrev "*" <ra...@rabyn.com>:

> I'd rather have a great product & have
> to work for the manual than to have a thick manual & crappy sound:)

[raymond soly]

Thanks Soren, Steve and * for your responses , I've had no doubt that
the 2882+dsp was/is a great "tool" I have been looking into it ever
since my OS9 days when I first purchased channel strip and spectrafoo
complete...........but my experience with the console was limited as I
do not have a mio box on hand.........i'm hoping to remedy this this
summer.........

Ray

[Steven Devino]

Raymond,

You can experiment and get up to speed on the console programming without the 2882 box. You can download and run the console software sans box at anytime. There is no license since the box is pretty much the dongle.

http://www.metric-halo.com/MIO/MIOConsole_v.5.3.165.zip

If you are familiar with the routing in Pro Tools then this will be a short learning curve.

QLAB would playback on DAW channels.

Steve

[raymond soly]

ah! I have the console.......didn't know I could use it "sans box" though!!! you mean it passes audio?

thanks

Ray

[Steven Devino]

On May 20, at May 20, 2010 12:28 PM, raymond soly wrote:

> ah! I have the console.......didn't know I could use it "sans box" though!!! you mean it passes audio?

Ha ha! no but you can play around with your configurations etc. You need the "dongle" to pass audio.

Steve

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[raymond soly]

ah, that's what I thought, so yes I've played around with the
console..... for some years now,......didn' t really need a box until
now..............that said one thing that bugs/impairs me so far is
that although I can recall 5 EQ presets, the names are not
updated ,just italycised to let you know its different form the first
one chosen/identified..........so after a few presets change you need
a paper trail to let you know which is which???? ...... It would also
be nice to somehow have the ability to morph/fade between
presets......my old hardware TC m2000 used to do this......

On the 2882+dsp subject though, is it possible to demo a unit???might
be in my case that I don't yet need the dsp right away the MIO strip
seems to be all I need to start......that would soften the blow as far
as purchasing costs etc..and I might get 2 non dsp and eventually get
the dsp at a later date.....

Its always been easier to convince my bosses to purchase many less
expensive items gradually than to try and get them to spring for the
more expensive on get go!!!!! easier to budget I guess........(my
original idea was/is to go digico SD9 thru madi from the
comps.......but the price is certainly a set back for him.....)

thanks

Ray

[*]

As I understand it, you demo the +dsp for X amount of days before you have
to purchase it. But then it dies & will never install on that Mac again
(unless you wipe the OS I guess).

So don't download the demo without a box to hear it!!!

I was at the same crossroads a few weeks ago. So I just bought (2) 2882s
without +DSP.

After having them for a while, I find myself going to the plugin / send
list a lot & finding what I want grayed out (needing +DSP). I'm sure this
is on purpose & for good reason. The strip by itself is great (although I
don't like the fact that the comp defaults to autogain.

But for any PA processing, I think you'll immediately want +DSP.

With that said, I haven't tried to use the strip EQ & comp to perform the
task. I'm sure it's doable but surely much easier with the full tool list.

For me, running redundantly with Qlab, I'll have to buy the +DSP license
twice (ouch!) because the two boxes are on different computers. When using
the boxes together on the same computer, you only need (1) +dsp license.

*

On Thu, May 20, 2010 11:58 am, raymond soly wrote:
> ah, that's what I thought, so yes I've played around with the
> console..... for some years now,......didn' t really need a box until
> now..............that said one thing that bugs/impairs me so far is
> that although I can recall 5 EQ presets, the names are not
> updated ,just italycised to let you know its different form the first
> one chosen/identified..........so after a few presets change you need
> a paper trail to let you know which is which???? ...... It would also
> be nice to somehow have the ability to morph/fade between
> presets......my old hardware TC m2000 used to do this......
>
> On the 2882+dsp subject though, is it possible to demo a unit???might
> be in my case that I don't yet need the dsp right away the MIO strip
> seems to be all I need to start......that would soften the blow as far
> as purchasing costs etc..and I might get 2 non dsp and eventually get
> the dsp at a later date.....
>
> Its always been easier to convince my bosses to purchase many less
> expensive items gradually than to try and get them to spring for the
> more expensive on get go!!!!! easier to budget I guess........(my
> original idea was/is to go digico SD9 thru madi from the
> comps.......but the price is certainly a set back for him.....)

[Søren Knud]

Its actually stored in the box- not on the computer- you can swith
computer anytime and still have the license with you.

Best

Den 20/05/2010 kl. 19.07 skrev "*" <ra...@rabyn.com>:

> As I understand it, you demo the +dsp for X amount of days before
> you have
> to purchase it. But then it dies & will never install on that Mac
> again
> (unless you wipe the OS I guess).
>
> So don't download the demo without a box to hear it!!!

[Steven Devino]

On May 20, at May 20, 2010 12:58 PM, raymond soly wrote:

> ah, that's what I thought, so yes I've played around with the console..... for some years now,......didn' t really need a box until now..............that said one thing that bugs/impairs me so far is that although I can recall 5 EQ presets, the names are not updated ,just italycised to let you know its different form the first one chosen/identified..........so after a few presets change you need a paper trail to let you know which is which???? ......

You can store and name as many presets as you like as long as you give them original names.

> It would also be nice to somehow have the ability to morph/fade between presets......my old hardware TC m2000 used to do this......

Yeah, you can't really do this. But you could switch between channel strips with different presets using the faders driven by Midi cues from QLAB.

>
> On the 2882+dsp subject though, is it possible to demo a unit???might be in my case that I don't yet need the dsp right away the MIO strip seems to be all I need to start......that would soften the blow as far as purchasing costs etc..and I might get 2 non dsp and eventually get the dsp at a later date.....

The +DSP upgrade is email and password typed into the box via the console software, so you can take it one step at a time.

Steve
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[raymond soly]

thanks *

R

[raymond soly]

Thanks Steven,

On 20-May-10, at 1:55 PM, Steven Devino wrote:

>
>
>> It would also be nice to somehow have the ability to morph/fade
>> between presets......my old hardware TC m2000 used to do this......
>
> Yeah, you can't really do this. But you could switch between channel
> strips with different presets using the faders driven by Midi cues
> from QLAB.

is this not a lot more processor intensive??? I could have a dozen
presets hence a dozen plugins per channel???


Ray

[Steven Devino]

Ok I see. I don't use presets so I can't really comment. I thought you were referring to saved setups. I have never tried using the presets. I am not even sure if they actually work. If you need a lot of different presets during a show you would need to switch them by hand. Not sure that is practical.

Steve Devino
http//:www.graniterockslive.com
Please pardon the iPad blunders

[Steven Devino]

On May 21, at May 21, 2010 11:15 AM, raymond soly wrote:

> Thanks Steven,
> On 20-May-10, at 1:55 PM, Steven Devino wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>> It would also be nice to somehow have the ability to morph/fade between presets......my old hardware TC m2000 used to do this......
>>
>> Yeah, you can't really do this. But you could switch between channel strips with different presets using the faders driven by Midi cues from QLAB.
>
> is this not a lot more processor intensive??? I could have a dozen presets hence a dozen plugins per channel???
>

It uses more DSP for sure for the second channel. SO if you need to do this a lot it might not be ideal.

Steve