HDMI into BLackmagic Intensity Shuttle

[miker]

Has anyone had success running HDMI over distance through an extender and into a Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle? 

[MattM]

I'm doing something like that.  

As a bit of a tangent (and just to get this on the forum, in case anyone else has had the same problem), I would note that I discovered, the hard way at first, that the Shuttle is expecting -- and requires -- a different color space than is put out by a computer.  It's been a couple of years, and I don't recall exactly how I figured this out, but computer displays are putting out HDMI signals using RGB color space, whereas other devices such as video cameras use YUV.  The Shuttle supports YUV, but not RGB on its input.  So you can, in theory, plug an HDMI camera directly into a Shuttle and it should work with no issues.  I don't know whether Blackmagic ever addressed this "feature" in software, but at the time I built my rig, when I plugged my Mac Book Pro's HDMI port, or the VGA output of a friend's PC laptop into the Shuttle, I would not get a picture.  

I mention the above because it's not clear from your post if you're asking for troubleshooting help, or whether you're considering using a Shuttle in the way you describe.  If it's the latter -- yes, I've been able to do it.  If it's the former -- you may need an extra piece of hardware if you're trying to bring computer video into QLab, and that won't change even if you're not using an extender.

If you are trying to bring video into QLab from another computer, and you haven't already, make sure you can get a picture using the source computer's HDMI, VGA, etc. going straight in to the Shuttle before you start looking at extenders.  I had zero success with this initially, and I didn't understand why.  But if it doesn't work going in direct, it's unlikely to work going in through an extender, as most are typically not designed to convert color spaces.

Here's what worked for me: Datavideo makes an up/down/cross converter called the DAC-70 (http://www.datavideo.com/us/product/DAC-70 -- about $500) that will take any number of different video formats and convert them into a single, stable output format of your choosing.  So you can go in at 480p, say, and choose to come out at an upconverted 1080p.  The critical thing is that the box supports both RGB and YUV, so once you have it set up, you get a nice, solid, YUV-formatted signal coming into the Thunderbolt.  I don't know whether it works better on one side of the extender or the other (that is, whether it's on the transmitter side going into the balun, or on the receiver side coming out of the balun.  On the one hand I would think the less the balun has to do, the better, but some baluns may not support RGB or YUV as cleanly as the other.  I haven't looked into that specific issue and couldn't say off the top of my head.

For me, I'm using a Kanex Pro HDBaseT extender system (http://www.kanexpro.com/item/?id=HDBASE70POE).  I've had some reliability problems with their multi-channel rackmount versions, but the standalone boxes should be OK.  In the rackmount version (which is a matrixed switcher), you don't need a transmitter-end balun, because the rackmount side handles all that.  I've seen some weird behavior where the transmitter suddenly seems bricked until you disconnect a CAT5/CAT6 cable that the device doesn't seem to like for some reason.  Anyway, there are other manufacturers that make HDBaseT extenders if you want to try another brand.  The appeal of HDBaseT is that it uses power over Ethernet (POE) so you can power the receiving-end balun (at the remote monitor) using the same cable providing signal to the device.  

Good luck! Happy to answer more questions about process if I can help.

Matt

[miker]

Matt-  Thanks for the insight. I believe that the folks at Blackmagic have addressed the RGB vs YUV concern, as I have had no issue connecting up a PC'd HDMI output through the Shuttle and out to our iMac and QLaab. I now need to jump over the trial and error phase, to find a workable extender to put that signal across 300' of Cat6. 

[MattM]

That's good to know. I will have to try going straight in without using my DAC-70 and see what happens. I also use it when I'm bringing VGA sources into the Shuttle, but I'd be happy to eliminate a link in the chain if I can.

[miker]

MattM, I'm revisiting this post and hope you see it. You were able to get the Shuttle to recognize the HDMI signal out of your MacBookPro using the Datavideo product and it worked with QLab, correct in that interpretation?  

[MattM]

Correct.  For me, the issue was that I wanted to use the HDMI output of another computer as a camera input in QLab.  I was using it as a sort of poor man's keying system, where I could superimpose graphics over an input signal being generated by another computer that I didn't have control over and wasn't otherwise allowed to touch.

So -- 

HDMI out from source computer -> DAC-70 -> Intensity Shuttle Thunderbolt -> Mac Book Pro -> QLab Camera Cue

Are you trying to do something similar now?

Matt

[miker]

Almost identical in the sequence...in our case: HDMI out of MacBookPro > (Missing Link) > HDMI in on Shuttle Thunderbolt > iMac > QLab Camera Cue. We weren't gettting anywhere with the MacBookPro's output. It would always recognize the BMIS,but nothing showing up in Media Express or Desktop Setup. Your post with the info on YUV color is the key, as tonight I connected up a cable from our Extron switcher's preview output (VGA), into the BMIS component input. After playing around with various settings it worked through the the QLab camera cue as 1080i60 8-bit YUV. I'll have a MacBookPro tomorrow to test out the settings through its Thunderbolt output using a TB to VGA dongle, with the same component VGA to Y/Pb?Pr breakout. Next step will be to attempt to get the Datavideo DAC-70 to see if all this can be done via HDMI from the MacBookPro.

[miker]

have you used a MacBookPro as your source computer outputting HDMI? If you have, I was wondering what you used as a workable resolution with the BMIS in the mix?

On Wednesday, June 14, 2017 at 6:14:25 PM UTC-4, MattM wrote:

[MattM]

Hmm... the short answer is that it will depend on what the intended output is.  I was going to a projector displaying standard HD resolution (1920x1080), so I would have set the output to something like 1080p, 60Hz, to ensure that the projector is receiving something that it will know what to do with.

But the other question -- and I suspect this might be what you're asking -- is what resolution did I use in order to get the output of the BMIS to actually appear in QLab.  

Because at least in theory, QLab should be able to accept pretty much whatever you put into it.  You should be able to go to QLab's settings and choose whatever resolution and refresh rate you want.

The problem, as I suspect you're finding out, is that QLab and Blackmagic's codec need to agree on exactly the same signal format, or you get absolutely nothing.  Remember, first of all, that you have to go into Media Express and choose an input format for the BMIS.  That's step one.  Step two is to go into QLab's camera cue preferences and choose the same input format so that QLab is expecting the same type of signal that the BMIS is supposedly delivering.  

If those two settings don't agree, you'll get a blank screen and absolutely no input through the BMIS into QLab.  

To make matters worse, I got the distinct impression that even though Media Express and QLab both provide a wide variety of preferences for signal format, there are only a handful of settings that will work at all.  So even if all your settings preferences agree, you may still get a blank screen in your camera cues.

What I wound up having to do, first of all, is quit out of QLab completely, and deal only in Media Express for the moment.  Do some trial and error with different input formats in Media Express until you can get a picture in that application.  If you never find a setting that works in BM's native application, in my experience the signal is never going to magically work in QLab.  So QUIT OUT OF QLAB, for starters, and find the setting that works in Media Express.

My BMIS and DAC-70 are tied up in a mobile rack that I can't get to at the moment, so I can't check the exact format that I got to work.  But from what I can see in Media Express, it would appear that the setting that worked for me in that app is 1920x1080p30.  Start there in Media Express, and see if you can get a picture by feeding that format into the BMIS.  Once you get a picture in Media Express, note the settings that worked, THEN QUIT MEDIA EXPRESS BEFORE OPENING QLAB, just to make sure that one or the other programs isn't grabbing the output of the BMIS and preventing the other program from seeing it.

Then, in QLab, try setting up a camera cue using the same settings that worked in Media Express.  If I recall, that setting will, remarkably, NOT work in QLab.  At that point, go through the trial & error exercise again until you find the setting that works.  I seem to recall that while ME had to be set to 1920x1080p30, QLab had to be set to something like 1920x1080p29.97, or 1920x1080p60, or something like that.  YES, I know that makes no sense at all, but it was how I finally got it to work.  Once you find the right throughput to get through all these pieces, it will be stable after that.  Once I found the right combination of settings for my rig, I've never had these problems again, but it definitely took a lot of trial and error to find it.  I have always assumed these are BMIS firmware issues and not a problem with QLab.  Either way, start by getting a signal through Media Express, and then go from there.

Good luck!

Matt

 

[miker]

Thanks for the detailed explanation of the process that you have gone through to make it work on your end. We just received our DAC-70. Once the Utility software is loaded I'll give it a shot. Much appreciated!

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, miker wrote:

[miker]

Do you recall which YUV color space setting on the DAC-70 worked for you?  

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, miker wrote:

[miker]

Matt-  The DAC-70 did the trick. Amazing that it took as long as it did. Thanks so much for your insight!  M

On Wednesday, February 15, 2017 at 5:53:54 PM UTC-5, miker wrote:

[miker]

Is it safe to say that the DAC-70 doesn't pass HDCP? 

[Alexander R. Taylor]

I believe that is the case.  You may want to consider a HDMI-SDI converter as your extender, and then use the DAC-70s SDI to HDMI to go into your Shuttle.  Or split HDMI at the source end so you can have a local monitor.

Alexander

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