x32 rack for redundant system

[johng...@mac.com]

I'm helping plan a redundant Qlab rig.

Is there any reason why it couldn't be done with an X32 rack, with one Madi card?

If you used the USB audio in for one computer, and then a cheap madi card for mac mini 2 into the Behringer madi card?

Then you could use one mixer preset to switch between rigs, and one dual usb go button setup.

No midi switchers, no dual soundcards and switching systems.

Could be simpler and a bit cheaper then dual travellers.

What does the list think?

[Tyler Gothier]

Dante might be a better option as you wouldn't need a madi card for computer 2. I've used the x32 rack but would be nervous about any show running on it. Had 2 go down on a show last week for reasons still unknown

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[johng...@mac.com]

Yes, the cheapest madi card is still over a thousand so that's not looking like a good option now.

Now I'm checking to see if its possible to use a MOTU traveller AVB and their AVB switcher.

thanks,

john

[Tyler]

Dante card is $499 retail and would not require addition hardware with the computers. Uses ethernet port, no additional hardware needed

[johng...@mac.com]

Yes, makes total sense if you've got a board with dante. I've used rigs based off that setup before.

For this I had two other uses in mind, one as a simpler rental/mobile rig I could put together and the other for a show where the MD wants to run click and backing tracks off of Qlab in the pit, they have a PM5D, but no expansion cards for dante.

thanks, will keep thinking about this one.

[Dominic Bilkey]

How does the Behringer deal with usb switching?

We've had massive success with a Yamaha 01v96i and a dual Qlab rig using a usb switcher to switch. It's surprisingly robust and whilst you have to accept red crosses in the backup Qlab we were amazed that by switching Qlab immediately picked up from the next cue with no other intervention. 

Scarily robust for a £1000 console and 2 mac minis. 

Any similar weight with the Behringer?

Granted it is not seamless but immediate in terms of pickup. (And cheap!!!)

D

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[johng...@mac.com]

That sounds like a better option altogether.

The X32 series only has one USB computer in, so I was considering using one that way and another with a madi interface and the madi expansion card for an X32 rack. It would be small, but not cheap, the madi interface is over a thousand here in Canada and the madi expansion card is also about 400.

But a 01v96i and a team six go button sounds like a better and cheaper option.

thanks,

john

[Dominic Bilkey]

Just to be clear 01v96i has only one usb connection and we use a cheap £30 sub switcher to switch the desk between machines. 

MIDI output is also switched in the process as the desk has inbuilt midi. 

(We trigger both machines with an independent midi interface so as to keep them in sync when the other machine isn't connected to the desk/midi onboard)

It is a dirty solution but works. 

D

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[Nigel Hogg]

I use a similar solution to Dominic, but with a Dante card in the 01v96i. That way I have audio from both Mac Mini's into the desk at all times,one mini on USB, the other on Dante, and switch between them using a mute group on the desk. This has the advantage that you can also gang the faders of both inputs, so any mix changes are carried over on switching to backup.This has worked very reliably PROVIDED the desk is the master clock for the system.

Nigel

[Douglas Heriot]

Nigel, I’d call your solution very different to Dominic’s.

Everyone, PLEASE do not use passive USB switches like this! As a software engineer, it scares me SO MUCH!

Connecting & disconnecting devices involve many complicated layers that can go wrong – from the hardware itself, the hardware in your Mac, then the software in the OS and applications. And word clocks jumping around and so many other things. In my experience, most bugs are caused when things change. In the case of a failure in a computer and swapping to a reliable backup, changing more things is the *last* thing you want to do.

Having both computers going into a mixer the whole time, means you can swap between them, without changing anything on the computers that may cause more issues.

When I used to work at Audinate, a guy built a special USB hub with relays in it so we could connect a bunch of USB soundcards to a test machine, and have it sitting there for hours randomly plugging & unplugging soundcards to see if Dante Via would hold up. Doing that found stacks of different issues. I find it very funny that the thing we did to break stuff is what some people do as a backup plan!

Another story: I’ve also seen some people use a mechanical A/B ethernet switch to switch to backup lighting consoles – on a large tour in front of 20000 people. Same principle. It worked, but It’s scary – there’s so many layers inside computers that can go wrong.

Just don’t risk it.

Douglas

[Sam Kusnetz]

Dominic Bilkey wrote:
> We've had massive success with a Yamaha 01v96i and a dual Qlab rig
> using a usb switcher to switch. It's surprisingly robust and whilst
> you have to accept red crosses in the backup Qlab we were amazed that
> by switching Qlab immediately picked up from the next cue with no
> other intervention.

We advise against connecting and disconnecting audio and video hardware
from your Mac while QLab is running.

While you may have had success with this, Dominic, I would like to agree
with Douglas that in general, this is not advisable and likely leads to
unpredictability.

In general, the value of a redundant system decreases as fewer and fewer
of the pieces of the system are actually redundant. In the case of using
two Macs connected to an X32, one with USB and one with Dante, switching
over to your backup Mac means you're changing two variables in your
system: the choice of Mac, and the choice of transport mechanism. Is it
better than no redundancy? I suppose so. But it's not a *lot* better, I
think, particularly if you take good care of your Macs, avoid cheap
cable, and test things thoroughly before the audience is in the room.

Best
Sam

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[Nigel Hogg]

I would argue that, from many hours of experience, using 2 different input sources into an 01v96i is a "lot" better than switching USB. I agree that switching the USB is risky, in fact I'm amazed that Dominic has such success with it, but with my set-up I can switch between macs mid-cue with virtually no interruption of signal. My only proviso, again from experience, is to use the internal clock in the 01v - I tried clocking from the Dante card and found it to be unreliable (sorry Audinate!) resulting in the desk occasionally losing its clock source and muting for 20sec or so!

[Lyle Barrere]

Nigel how recently have you had that issue?  I ran into the mute for 20 seconds issue annoyingly frequently with Dante cards in my LS9 and 01Vs but haven't had it since the firmware update to 3.7.x which mentioned fixing the clock errors. 

Lyle

Nigel Hogg wrote:

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[Nigel Hogg]

Lyle, I haven't had the problem at all since I changed from using Dante as the master clock and clocked everything from the 01v. I had a problem with timecode that I was generating in Qlab being unstable and drifting in and out of sync with the audio - I have now found that clocking at 44.1 rather than 48 k cured this.

Nigel