Multiple surfaces - One projector

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

I'm renting the Basic Video license for a show I have coming up next week.  I have four different panels upstage that I will be covering with one projector.  I created multiple surfaces for the display, but for some reason, I can't figure out how to (or am not able to) move the surface to different areas of the screen.  They just go to the left side and I can't drag them anywhere else.  Is this a license limitation or something else I'm missing?  Thanks!

[Chris Ashworth]

Hi there,

I don’t think I understand your description.  Surfaces are a conceptual space in which you place screens, not the other way around.

Put another wayL When you say you are trying to move a surface to part of the screen, that’s the inverse of how to think about surfaces.  Instead, think about creating a surface that matches something “real” you are projecting on, and then arrange your computer screens so that they cover the surface.  From there, you will be able to just think about playing video cues to the surface and QLab will do the work of splitting the video signal out the various computer screens.

Does that help clarify? 

You can find more information here:

http://figure53.com/qlab/docs/overview-of-surfaces/

http://figure53.com/qlab/docs/videos/intro-to-surfaces/

http://figure53.com/qlab/docs/masks-and-constraints/

http://figure53.com/qlab/docs/multi-screen/

Best,

Chris

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

So, if I'm understanding right, a screen would correspond to a physical output, in this case my projector. Is that right?

What I don't understand and am having problems with, is how to map the "surface" (which has a smaller dimension than the projector covers) to a specific part of the projector image, in this case each of the large wooden panels I have hung upstage. In the old version of QLab, I would just do custom geography of an image on a per cue basis and move it to a specific part of the projector. I'm just trying to figure out how to do that with surfaces.

[Mike Post]

Does this help?

Pic one is creating a surface with smaller dimensions than the output screen.  The big blue area is the screen and the smaller gridded area is the surface.  Pic 2 is that surface centered in the screen.  I did this by just clicking and dragging, but you have to remember you are dragging the _screen_, not the surface, so it kind of feels backwards..

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

(601) 307-8657

On Apr 23, 2015, at 11:03 PM, ncapri...@sandiaprep.org wrote:

So, if I'm understanding right, a screen would correspond to a physical output, in this case my projector. Is that right?

What I don't understand and am having problems with, is how to map the "surface" (which has a smaller dimension than the projector covers) to a specific part of the projector image, in this case each of the large wooden panels I have hung upstage.  In the old version of QLab, I would just do custom geography of an image on a per cue basis and move it to a specific part of the projector. I'm just trying to figure out how to do that with surfaces.

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[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

Oh! Dragging the screen is the trick! That makes no sense, but whatever works. Lol. I'll give that a go when I get back to my computer tomorrow. Thanks so much!

[Mike Post]

Oh it does - Screens are mapped to surfaces, rather than surfaces to screens. That way you can have multiple screens on a single large surface which lets you use edge blending to create a much larger display area than a single projector can do. Just makes things a bit weird when you go in the other direction :-)

I suspect many people would use a custom mask to do what you’re after, but I think your approach is just as valid and I think it simplifies the programming a bit.

Mike Post
mdp...@mac.com
http://mdpostdesign.com
(601) 307-8657

> On Apr 23, 2015, at 11:34 PM, ncapri...@sandiaprep.org wrote:
>
> Oh! Dragging the screen is the trick! That makes no sense, but whatever works. Lol. I'll give that a go when I get back to my computer tomorrow. Thanks so much!
>

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

Oh I see. That does make sense, when you look at it the other way. Thanks for the explanation and the help!

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

I finally got back to my computer and tried it, but still no dice.  I can't drag the screen or the surface.  Does it tell you anything if the options in the bottom left of the edit window (origin, orientation, etc) are grayed out?  I feel like this should be something that's available in the basic license, but maybe not.  Seems like it kind of defeats the purpose of having unlimited single screen surfaces, if you can't put them where you need them in space.  

[Mike Post]

Huh,

The only way I managed to get that sort of behavior is by de-authorizing my pro license.  Even working with the default surface for my display I was able to manipulate it when I had Pro installed.  

Team F53?  Does a Basic license let you make the sort of modifications this OP is trying to do?  Is that a Pro only option?

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

(601) 307-8657

[micpool]

Have you confirmed the current license status?

QLab Menu Manage Licenses….

Mic

[micpool]

Do things return to the expected behaviour if you start demo mode

Mic

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

Mic,

I have confirmed that the license is installed.  "The following licenses are installed: Basic Video V3"

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

Mic,

In demo mode, it works as needed.

[micpool]

Well, I would agree with you that the video basic license should support that given it offers unlimited single screen surfaces.

Probably best to contact support via the help menu in the program and report  'screen origin greyed out in surface editor  when using video basic license'

Mic

[Mike Post]

Nothing I see in the licensing options screen suggests otherwise.  I thought it had to do with single screen surfaces, but those are totally workable with a pro license.  

One possible thought:  Are you working with the default surface or creating a new one?  It _shouldn’t_ make a difference, but creating a new one would  give you something to try while we wait to hear from the F53 gang.

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

(601) 307-8657

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

I've tried both with the default surface and creating new ones.  I've also restarted my computer a couple times, just for kicks.  

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

I also contacted F53 through "Contact Support" within QLab.  We'll see what happens.  Thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

[Sam Kusnetz]

Hello folks

A Basic Video license allows for full-screen surfaces only, with no warping, perspective correction, or mapping. Essentially, with a Basic Video license, the relationship between screens and surfaces is 1:1.

The behavior you're looking for, Nate, can be achieved at the cue level with your Basic Video license, or at the surface level with a Pro Video (or Pro Bundle) license.

Best
Sam

ncapri...@sandiaprep.org

April 24, 2015 at 11:23 AM

I also contacted F53 through "Contact Support" within QLab.  We'll see what happens.  Thanks for all the suggestions thus far.

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 9:08:31 AM UTC-6, ncapri...@sandiaprep.org wrote:

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ncapri...@sandiaprep.org

April 24, 2015 at 11:08 AM

I've tried both with the default surface and creating new ones.  I've also restarted my computer a couple times, just for kicks.  

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 9:01:45 AM UTC-6, Mike P wrote:

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Mike Post

April 24, 2015 at 11:01 AM

Nothing I see in the licensing options screen suggests otherwise.  I thought it had to do with single screen surfaces, but those are totally workable with a pro license.  

One possible thought:  Are you working with the default surface or creating a new one?  It _shouldn’t_ make a difference, but creating a new one would  give you something to try while we wait to hear from the F53 gang.

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

(601) 307-8657

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micpool

April 24, 2015 at 10:52 AM

Well, I would agree with you that the video basic license should support that given it offers unlimited single screen surfaces.

Probably best to contact support via the help menu in the program and report  'screen origin greyed out in surface editor  when using video basic license'

Mic

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 3:46:19 PM UTC+1, ncapri...@sandiaprep.org wrote:

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ncapri...@sandiaprep.org

April 24, 2015 at 10:46 AM

Mic,

In demo mode, it works as needed.

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 8:36:27 AM UTC-6, micpool wrote:

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[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

Response from Figure 53:

"Hello

This is a limitation of the Basic Video license. Basic Video licenses allow for full-screen output only, with no perspective correction, warping, or remapping.

Please don't hesitate to contact us again if you have any other questions, or if there's anything else we can do for you.

Cheerio,
Sam"

So I guess it's back to the old way of just doing custom geometry, sitting in the dark theatre, and putting each image where I need it.  Kind of what I was hoping to avoid, but luckily it's not a complicated show.  If it was, I would upgrade to pro.  Seems a bit pointless and misleading to say the basic license has "unlimited single-screen surfaces" if every surface you make ends up in the bottom left corner of the screen.

Nathan

[Sean Dougall]

That’s exactly what we mean by “single-screen surfaces”: a surface that has a one-to-one correspondence with a single display. You might need unlimited single-screen surfaces if, for example, you have projections on a wall, plus a TV on stage; or if you need multiple independent monitors in a museum installation. So for advanced projections, the Basic Video license isn’t always the best option, but it does unlock a lot of potential for other video applications.

I can see how the meaning of “single-screen surface” isn’t entirely clear. (It was clearer in 3.0.x, where single-screen surfaces were special entities that were clearly labeled in QLab as such. The term is a bit of a holdover.) We’re discussing how we might be able to clarify that in the features list on the Buy page. Probably “unlimited full-screen surfaces” would be clearer?

Thanks, and sorry for the confusion! It certainly wasn’t intended to mislead.

--

Sean Dougall

se...@figure53.com

[Mike Post]

OK - that makes sense and I see where the license screen talks about Warping and Keystone correction.  I would suggest you disable the ability to resize the surface in Basic though.  Also maybe add ‘Mapping’ to the license page entry for Warping and Keystone?

That being said, if Basic allows for a copy and pasty of Geometry values, then the way to do this is reset the surface to a full screen size and get one cue placed properly using the Translation fields in Custom Geometry and paste that geometry to each other cue.  This is a one at a time thing, but is simpler that placing them all by hand.

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

(601) 307-8657

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

Thanks Sean.  I have no belief that you were in any way trying to mislead.  I love QLab and appreciate the amazing functionality and rental licenses are great when you only need video once every couple years.  As long as I have custom geometry, I can do what I need and in the future I'll go Pro. Thank you for the explanation and your time!  PS: "Unlimited full-screen surfaces" would be much clearer.  

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

I second what Mike said in his first paragraph.  Those changes would make things much clearer in comparing licenses.  Thanks again everybody!

[micpool]

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 5:09:35 PM UTC+1, ncapri...@sandiaprep.org wrote:

I second what Mike said in his first paragraph.  Those changes would make things much clearer in comparing licenses.  Thanks again everybody!

It's not clear. The Pro feature, 'Unlimited multi-screen surfaces'  I would interpret as surfaces that have more than one screen assigned for blending etc.  A 'single screen surface' i would interpret as a surface with a single screen assigned.

 

On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 9:58:22 AM UTC-6, Mike P wrote:

OK - that makes sense and I see where the license screen talks about Warping and Keystone correction.  I would suggest you disable the ability to resize the surface in Basic though.  Also maybe add ‘Mapping’ to the license page entry for Warping and Keystone?

If you disable the ability to resize the surface, how do you match the surface to the screen resolution?  I don't really understand what the 1:1 relationship between screens and surfaces is on the basic license. Does a basic license allow you to create lots of surfaces assigned to 1 screen, even though this is pointless? Can shifting the origin, really be interpreted as mapping and warping?

Mic

[Mike Post]

If you disable the ability to resize the surface, how do you match the surface to the screen resolution?  I don't really understand what the 1:1 relationship between screens and surfaces is on the basic license. Does a basic license allow you to create lots of surfaces assigned to 1 screen, even though this is pointless? Can shifting the origin, really be interpreted as mapping and warping?

I thought the default case for a single screen surface was the resolution of the attached output.  I have been in situations where EDID wasn’t functioning properly and the wrong screen resolution was reported, but that was more a matter the configuration in Systems Settings rather than QLab.  Are there situations where QLab can’t figure out the proper screen size from what the OS is reporting?

Mike Post

mdp...@mac.com

http://mdpostdesign.com

(601) 307-8657

Mic

[ncapri...@sandiaprep.org]

With the Basic License, you can create multiple surfaces assigned to one screen, but as you resize them they stay pinned to the bottom left corner, so this is a bit pointless as, if you have multiple cues playing, they just stack on top of each other.  The surface defaults to the screen resolution and I guess if you just wanted to make a surface for a projector that was smaller than the projector image, you could do that and just focus the projector so your "surface" is covering the area you want.  It seems to me that basic mapping of surfaces, without warping, keystone, etc, should be a part of the basic license, but I'm sure F53 has their reasons.

[Tyler]

I don't like opening old topics, but I am working on a project where the exact same idea is needed. One projector, many surfaces (12 or more....each with their own content at some points) I spent a few hours demoing how the mapping would work, and many surfaces on one projector becomes confusing because I can't see all of my surfaces on my screen. Any ideas on how to best handle this? Perhaps the idea of adding a reverse workflow should be thought about. Many surfaces to one screen

[micpool]

I am not quite sure what your exact problem is. From the other posts in the thread you can see that you need a Pro Video license to do the sort of mapping you are talking about.

Are you saying that with a Pro License you can't do what you describe?

Mic

[Tyler]

Here's a rough idea - see attached image. Each panel is a 'surface' with the ability to route content to each independently, or as a whole with a mask. This would be covered by 1 projector.

I've read this thread twice and I might just not understand the best way to accomplish this. The best way it seems would be if QL allowed multiple surfaces assigned to one screen that I could edit and manipulate in a single window. Maybe QL isn't the best option for this

License doesn't matter, I've been working in and out of demo mode for the past couple days just trying to wrap my head around how the proper workflow to accomplish this. any thoughts?

[micpool]

In this example I am using a 1024x768 projector

I am going to create an extra surface on the bottom layer to put your example projection area on. This represents a surface which is at an angle to the projector. You would in real life save yourself a whole bundle of trouble by ensuring the screen is square to the projector, but I'll use your pic without squaring it up as it demonstrates corner pinning surface as well.

I am going to create a surface the full area of the beige area on your pic. I am going to size this at 1024x600 and put it on Surface Layer 1

I am going to create 10 surfaces approximately the size of the squares on your pic. I will create 1 this size and duplicate it resetting the control points each time and dragging the SCREEN! to position th surface.

I am going to make these surfaces 192x192 as that is more than the number of pixels that  will fall on each square and because I am old school is (like most other common standard video pixel dimensions) a multiple of 16. And this is the size you would make the content for these screens!

I going to import a 1x1 pixel black.png file to put full screen on  each square, on the bottom cue layer  for each square, to act as a mask on my full area surface.

So I now have 11 projection surfaces

Example workspace attached for 1024x768 screen. You will need to re assign  the screen for each surface to your projector (or secondary monitor).

Now to the Limitations of doing this in QLab, If you were using moving footage then on a crossfade where every surface changed you would be running 22 videos at the same time during the crossfade. This would be challenging to say the least!.

For complicated mapping projects QLab syphoning to MadMapper can be a much easier workflow.  I'm going to do a syphon chapter in the QLab Cookbook, I hope before Christmas!

In the meantime for complex QLab mapping you might look at 

http://qlabcookbook.com/2004/01/11/masks/

Best Regards

Mic