X32 for 32 channel Qlab audio output device - day 1

[ra byn taylor]

Last week, I arranged for a local middle school to borrow an X32 from a local non profit for an upcoming TTM (Thoroughly Modern Millie) performance two weeks from now. The X32 was delivered on Sunday. I had an hour with the tech students to patch it in & check under the hood.

Without any drivers, the X32 showed up in Qlab.

You can patch as few as 8 outputs or as many as 32.

Question:

What other 32 channel audio interface can you buy with 16 XLR outputs, build in 4 band parametric eq, HP & LP, delay & compression, flying faders, effects, scenes, offline editor, Iphone & Ipad app, etc...???

You setup the inputs on the console via routing & so if you want card 1 - 8 to land on input 17 - 24, you just select the connection. By default there are no card connections patched but instead all the mic pre inputs are setup.

Note that in addition to the 32 mic pre amps, there are 6 more TRS inputs for a total of 40 channels. All showing up on fader layers 1,2 or 3.

A stereo track in Qlab (free) showed up as 1/2 of the console where I patched them (25 thru 32). I linked those two channels for stereo operation.

The offline editor options as of 01/22/13 add Mac support (OSX10.7 or higher).

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/X32.aspx

The offline editor's for both the PC & Mac are exactly like the board so if you know the offline editor, you're golden.

If the X32 proves to be reliable & there are no surprises, the goal will be to record the entire show (via the 32 channel USB output function) as a multitrack session so the tech students can practice after the show is over.

Question:

What other 32 input USB/Firewire device exists for $2500?

Tomorrow I will run some audio thru the console & do some transfer function measurements to see how well the board passes audio & how accurate the EQ is.

More soon,

ra byn (robin)

[Keith Smith]

Make sure you keep it cool.

A friend of mine experienced a full uncommanded shutdown, twice, during a recent convention. Both times it refused to restart for about 25 minutes. Both times there was an act on stage.

A thermal cut-out is suspected - and my friend noted the lack of a fan. The unit in question is on its way back to Behringer for them to have a look at it.


K.

[sam kusnetz]

ra byn wrote:

> Last week, I arranged for a local middle school to borrow an X32 from a local non profit for an upcoming TTM (Thoroughly Modern Millie) performance two weeks from now. The X32 was delivered on Sunday. I had an hour with the tech students to patch it in & check under the hood.

keith smith replied:

> Make sure you keep it cool.
>
> A friend of mine experienced a full uncommanded shutdown, twice, during a recent convention. Both times it refused to restart for about 25 minutes. Both times there was an act on stage.
>
> A thermal cut-out is suspected - and my friend noted the lack of a fan. The unit in question is on its way back to Behringer for them to have a look at it.

i'm shocked, shocked i say, to hear that someone has had a repeated, show-stopping failure of a behringer product!

(please note that i write this from my personal address, speaking only for myself and not for figure 53.)

cheerio
sam
--
sam kusnetz, sound & projection design | USA-829
503.201.2591
s...@notquite.net

[ra byn taylor]

In the case of this X32, the same unit just did a month run on a show run by a friend of mine. Not to say that keeping the console cool isn't a good idea but if this was happening much, the information out there & reviews would include it. I've seen 0% discussion about this.

I HAVE seen a lot of discussion about some digidesign boards having issues outside in the heat.

Let us know what you find out on your end & I'll report in about my experience.

ra byn
.

[Andy Dolph]

Indeed - Like many of us I am extremely skeptical of the reliability of anything from Behringer, however the X32 is an extremely appealing product in many ways - if it's reliable enough to use....  And that's something that I think will only be known in time...  I think I'm going to wait at least a year before I would buy one....  I'd be interested in other folks thoughts about that. What would it take for you to feel it was reliable to consider buying one?

Andy

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[Paul Gotch]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 07:13:00AM -0600, ra byn taylor wrote:
> In the case of this X32, the same unit just did a month run on a show run
> by a friend of mine. Not to say that keeping the console cool isn't a good
> idea but if this was happening much, the information out there & reviews
> would include it. I've seen 0% discussion about this.

Behringer seem to have a concerted customer service effort going on, at
least in the UK.

For example they've got people monitoring the blue-room.org.uk forums,
for example one person who thought they'd need to ship a failed desk
thomann.de but a behringer person poped up and arranged for it to be
shipped to the UK service centre the next day.

It's too early to say how reliable the desks are over all, even
expensive desks have their issues. Digico went through a period of
bluescreens of death on their (Windows based) desks for example.

Personally I think they are trying to pull the reputation of the
Behringer brand up, they could have designed and released this desk
under the Midas brand. Instead they released it under the Behringer
brand and used the bits of it designed by Midas and Klark Teknik line.

-p
--
Paul Gotch
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[ra byn taylor]

I'll just this point out.

Every one is skeptical of the X32 & Uli knows it. Even me. I've spent dozens of hours looking for bad information about it & found nothing I would consider more than a feature complaint or limitation.

I have heard or seen nothing bad about the board. Prior to the recent post in this thread, I haven't heard of a failure. That doesn't mean I discount the failure or that it wasn't a terrible experience. Each user is allowed to share their experience but the opinions of those who haven't actually used one are pretty ignorable.

This is why I'm actively using the board myself. In the next 2 weeks I'll either know that I want one or I don't & why. I'll know if it sounds as good or better than the house A&H GL3300. I'll know if over the course of 2 weeks it will fail. That doesn't guarantee anything but at least I'll be speaking from first hand experience.

Are there going to be failures? Sure. But I won't hold Uli to a higher standard than I would the rest. My favorite device have failed at one point or another. My favorite tube amp, my favorite audio I/O. My favorite analog mixer, etc...

Maybe Behringer is working harder than before to make sure they make this a success. If so, can we fault them?

In the meantime, some good news for Qlab users. 

The Xcontrol Mac offline editor is available now (10.7+)
The X32 (at least via USB) doesn't require any drivers to do 32 outputs from Qlab (I'll test this more soon)

I will spend 2 more hours with the console today as an interface for Qlab. More soon.

ra byn (robin)

[sam kusnetz]

Are there going to be failures? Sure. But I won't hold Uli to a higher standard than I would the rest.

i will.

behringer has a long and rich history of products that suck, more so than any other manufacturer that i've encountered. i think we should require extra assurance from behringer, just as we would require extra reassurance from a person known previously to be a liar.

that said, looking over the website for the X32 i'm pretty impressed. it looks like a very thoughtfully designed product and i am eager to hear your reports, ra byn, of how you like working with it.

if it holds up to scrutiny, it really could be quite a game changer of a product.

[ra byn taylor]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 10:57 AM, sam kusnetz <s...@notquite.net> wrote:

behringer has a long and rich history of products that suck, more so than any other manufacturer that i've encountered. i think we should require extra assurance from behringer, just as we would require extra reassurance from a person known previously to be a liar

Good point Sam!

There was a point where I wouldn't even consider buying anything with an ear logo on it. I've told many many people, "it's the cheapest crap you can buy..." & steered them toward something better.

If it were not for adding Midas, KT & Turbosound to their staff, I still wouldn't give it a second thought. But a friend got to use one & liked it. I trust him so now I have arranged to try it myself on a student show that I'm volunteering to do sound design for. If the board catches on fire in the middle of act 1, that will be an interesting learning experience for the students too:)  Then they can also learn how to repatch the A&H with the audience watching & see how that goes...

I wouldn't consider using an X32 on a real show until it's proven itself  (as I would need any gear or app to).

Maybe it's just the Midas name on the face plate. I'll hold the rest of my thoughts until I have my next session on the board but so far, I'm truly impressed. Maybe that is the Midas factor & has nothing to do with Uli.

If you get a chance play with the Xcontrol app, check it out. Easier to use than YSM & you can certainly learn the console using it so for a student situation, it's really exciting. Being Mac, PC & Linux compatible is really smart too.  

More this evening.

ra byn

[Brendan Aanes]

having recently had a show-disrupting failure of yet another ADA8000, I certainly expect more proof of reliability from Behringer products than others before I'm willing to trust them. 

the early X32 I used had plenty of bugs- actually even after several firmware updates I was never able to save a show file to the USB drive on that console. another issue had to do with the faders tracking incorrectly if you touched them while you were switching layers. this was well-documented in some forums and has since been fixed.

that said, it's a lot of functionality for the money, and sounds good too. having done a couple of shows on one, in everyday use it seems to work well. but again, who knows how long it wil last? it's hard to be optimistic based on cost and track record.

--

[ra byn taylor]

On a completely different note:

http://www.soundcraft.com/products/product.aspx?pid=191

Flexible onboard and expansion I/O options ensure your Si Expression integrates effortlessly with other system components utilising any of the Si series option cards including AES, Firewire/USB/ADAT*1, AVIOM^™, CobraNet^™, BSS Digital Audio Bus (BLU Link)*1, Dante^™*1 CAT5 or optical MADI. The MADI card, as well as being an interface to multi-track recording systems or plug-in systems like Waves, enables linking the Si Performer to any of the Soundcraft or Studer stageboxes to extend the I/O power and flexibility. Adding a stagebox to an Si Expression actually increases the number of channels you can mix at once not just how many inputs you have available to choose from! It is said ‘Power is nothing without control’ and here the Si Expression excels with a comprehensive but 'simple to use' control surface incorporating a dedicated control for every parameter, a row of global mode encoders and colour touch screen ensuring operation is quick and easy. 

Via the firewire / USB card, it might be another 32 output option for Qlab purposes. 

Affordable digital boards, wifi speakers with AVB? What next? 64 channel RF rigs that are bullet proof?

*

[Paul Gotch]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 10:06:22AM -0800, Brendan Aanes wrote:
> that said, it's a lot of functionality for the money, and sounds good too.
> having done a couple of shows on one, in everyday use it seems to work
> well. but again, who knows how long it wil last? it's hard to be optimistic
> based on cost and track record.

I thing the cost argument is also specious. How much of the cost of
other desks is actually build cost and how much is charging what the
market will bear?

There are clearly things where behringer has done something different
to hit the price point. For example they are using their own motorised
fader design as everything they could buy off the shelf was too
expensive.

[Eric Lott]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 1:06 PM, Brendan Aanes wrote:

the early X32 I used had plenty of bugs- actually even after several firmware updates I was never able to save a show file to the USB drive on that console. another issue had to do with the faders tracking incorrectly if you touched them while you were switching layers. this was well-documented in some forums and has since been fixed.

It will be long time before I will be comfortable mixing on console with the Behringer name on it given there history. But it wouldn't take as long for you to convince me to use them for a sound card given that market lately. The X32 core (http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X32-CORE.aspx) is actually the most interesting product out of there new line to me. 40 channels 1U rack space hard to beat. If only there where more ways it interface with AES50. As many have said we will see what the future holds not just from Behringer but from all there competitors resounding as well. 

Best,

Eric

[Jeremy Lee]

Some of the cost is actual Build Cost, some is R&D and some is to pay for people to be on staff to help out when things go awry. It's hard to afford much in the way of tech support when the whole console is $3k.

--
Jeremy Lee
Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829
http://www.jjlee.com

[Brendan Aanes]

I thing the cost argument is also specious. How much of the cost of
other desks is actually build cost and how much is charging what the
market will bear?

Probably true to some point - witness Soundcraft, which just discontinued their ~$7k Si Compact range and replaced it with the essentially identical Si Expression for half the price. I think Behringer is also aiming for a different place on the supply vs. demand curve - they're betting that they're going to sell way more of these than Yamaha sells LS9s, so the fixed costs such as R&D are spread. But ultimately they're able to do that by doing something cheaper than their competition, and based on their history that philosophy has led them to make less reliable products.

 

There are clearly things where behringer has done something different
to hit the price point. For example they are using their own motorised
fader design as everything they could buy off the shelf was too
expensive.

I find this one a little suspect - if there's a way to make significantly cheaper faders that are up to snuff, I'd expect someone to have done so by now. Components are usually a competitive market, one where branding doesn't get you very far.

 

-p
--
Paul Gotch
--------------------------------------------------------------------

[ra byn taylor]

On Tue, Feb 12, 2013 at 12:32 PM, Jeremy Lee <jer...@jjlee.com> wrote:

Some of the cost is actual Build Cost, some is R&D and some is to pay for people to be on staff to help out when things go awry.  It's hard to afford much in the way of tech support when the whole console is $3k.

I've had multiple person email exchanges with Tom Der @ Sound Craft / Studer so in that regard, the new Soundcraft Expression 32 might be a stand out product. The guy is available. 

There are a things exciting to this discussion. 

1. Simplified rig (X32 & Qlab mac with no drivers & no extra stuff)

2. I can carry the X32 myself so as one man operation I can be portable

3. For the cost, I can better afford an onsite spare

If the X32 was even close to the cost of a real digital console I'd just ignore it. For example, an SC48 but @ $2400 cost, you're basically buying a 32 x 32 x 16 hard output Qlab device & getting the rest thrown in. Need a spare? $5000. Still 1/2 what the next option costs & 1/4 of many of the options out there. 

Maybe the X32 will drive the market to put out better products for less money. I already like the X32 better than the brand new Yamaha 0/196i I just purchased for a small theater & definitely like it better than the LS9-16 & LS9-32.  I can't find anyone who thinks the Yamaha boards sound good. Maybe having some competition is what we need here. 

Re: X32

Does it sound good? 

Is it reliable?

Are problems fixed if & when they arise?

That is what I need to know.

ra byn

[Keith Smith]

On 12 Feb 2013, at 18:45, ra byn taylor wrote:

> Re: X32
>
> Does it sound good?

I haven't heard it yet, but the friend I mentioned in my earlier post did say that was one of the best sounding boards she had worked with (at least, while it was working). She was in a difficult room, had no feedback and had only a tiny amount of ringing which was trivial to filter.


> Is it reliable?

One bad report does not a trend make. I guess time will tell.

> Are problems fixed if & when they arise?

I'll report back on what happens with this device.


K.

[Andy Leviss]

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 at 3:01 PM, Keith Smith wrote:

I haven't heard it yet, but the friend I mentioned in my earlier post did say that was one of the best sounding boards she had worked with (at least, while it was working). She was in a difficult room, had no feedback and had only a tiny amount of ringing which was trivial to filter.

Since when does feedback (or lack thereof) have anything to so with how the console sounds?

-Andy

[Jeremy Lee]

On Feb 12, 2013, at 3:01 PM, Keith Smith <keith...@keiths-place.com> wrote:

>
> On 12 Feb 2013, at 18:45, ra byn taylor wrote:
>
>> Re: X32
>>
>> Does it sound good?
>
> I haven't heard it yet, but the friend I mentioned in my earlier post did say that was one of the best sounding boards she had worked with (at least, while it was working). She was in a difficult room, had no feedback and had only a tiny amount of ringing which was trivial to filter.

That she had no feedback, and only a little "ringing" is really not a comment on how the board sounds at all. It just means her gain structure and mic/ speaker placement didn't totally suck. The "sound" of the console lies in the mic press, AD and DA converters, clock stability, and all the math that makes a digital mixer work, including EQ/ Comp/ etc DSP.

[Rabyn]

I would tend to think that "ringing" is feedback.

ra byn (robin)

[lp...@brevardmusic.org]

How the heck do I connect my Macbook to the x32 and have multiple outputs show up in Qlab? 

Please help 

Lance Perl 

843 605 2030

[Dave]

We've had an X32 for a couple years now the first time we tested the board I used the USB card to feed 12 channels of ProTools into the board. You should see the X32 as a USB device in your sound settings select it as your output device and go for it. You might have to work with the Routing screens to get the Card inputs to the channels you want. Without the desk in front of me I'm not sure but I do know there are card options in the Routing screens.

[Nigel Hogg]

Hi Lance,

You need to connect your Macbook to the x32 usb card. Set the x32 as your audio device in Qlab. Then on the routing screen on the x32 set channels 1-8 (and 9-16 if you need more channels) as inputs, and assign them as inputs to mix channels in the x32. You can then select these inputs as scources for each fader on the x32.
I use this system all the time, except I use a Dante card in order to use the output of 2 Mac Mini's as scources.

Hope this helps,

Nigel

[Drew Schmidt]

To be clear, use the removable USB card, not the one next to the Ethernet port labeled "remote". So maybe the question is this: what time of expansion card do you have installed, if any.