[QLab] Another Newbie Question: Affordable Audio Interface

[MartinC]

Can I call upon your collective wisdom and ask for recommendations for
a reasonable quality 8-output audio interface that will work with
QLab? I'm quite new to this and am just dipping my toes into computer
control for an amateur theatre group. I'm settled on QLab as it seems
not only to be the most professional looking, it's easy and intuitive
to use.

Is there any advantages choosing USB (thunderbolt?) over optical for
input to the device? I'd prefer the audio interface to have balanced
analogue output. These will go directly into our (antiquated) manual
analogue sound desk.

Is there an argument for using the opportunity also to buy a new
digital desk? Can QLab drive these desks directly or will I still need
an audio interface?

Thanks for reading and for your patience with an audio newbie.
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[Morgan Calma]

I'll leave better minds for most of the answers. I will say if you going to spend money don't be short sighted buying what you need now. Look at what you may need in the future based on were your company would like to go.

I own a Motu (www.Motu.com) ultra-lite for personal and a traveller for my theater. I got Motu hardware for its standalone mixing capability. The traveler is a bit more pricey but gives lots of I/O options for future uses. Also look at Dante Virtual sound card (www.audinate.com) if you're thinking about getting a digital sound board.

[Christopher Ashworth]

Hi Martin,

On May 4, 2011, at 7:49 AM, MartinC wrote:

> Can I call upon your collective wisdom and ask for recommendations for
> a reasonable quality 8-output audio interface that will work with
> QLab?

In addition to Morgan's comments, you'll also find this topic comes up from time to time in the mailing list archives:

http://groups.google.com/group/qlab

There is also a page in the wiki where people have shared information about devices they've tried:

http://wiki.figure53.com/QLab+Tested+Hardware

Cheers,
Chris

[Charles Coes]

I'd say that the most basic 8 channel interface that is 'show reliable' for a paying audience is the MOTU Ultralite.  It has the advantage of making reverb and some rudimentary EQ available for your Qlab outputs to allow for system EQ.  It'll also give you 10 channels in a inch.

The common wisdom is that firewire is the preferred interface for audio, as there is less CPU overhead and latency.  I'm sure that thunderbolt will supplant this once there are options out there for it, but I haven't seen one yet.

Other, semi-professional, options are available from M-Audio (bad drivers) and pre-sonus, and echo.  All are a step down in converter quality from the MOTU in my opinion, but could be totally serviceable.

Q-lab can feed the Dante virtual sound card, and feed a digital desk directly (I've used a system feeding into a DM1k via a Dante MY card).  There is also a, possibly defunct, Yamaha option for this called M-Lan. Both are hard to make redundant... 

Keep in mind that any digital system will require you to lock the two devices' clocks together.

Charles Coes
cco...@gmail.com 
www.charlescoes.com
"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller

On May 4, 2011, at 7:49 AM, MartinC wrote:

[Jeremy Lee]

I hadn't tried it, but was told that the EQ and verb was not available directly for playback channels- only for live input channels being mixed by the unit. Is that not true?

-- 

Jeremy Lee

    Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829

        http://www.jjlee.com

[Terry Penney]

I have had no problems using an M-Audio 610 that I bought a couple of months ago.  I've only done the one show with it so far, but that had a soundscape with 105 sound cues to 8 channel and it all worked as I wanted it to.  Price in Canada was just $409.00

Terry Penney

Sent from my iPad

[Morgan Calma]

I have tried the eq, it works (found out the hard way).  You have to adjust the output side for playback.

[Jeremy Lee]

Good to know.  What does that mean, exactly- You have to adjust the output side for playback... ?

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[Stephen Pruitt]

This comes up a lot, so I'd definitely read back in the archives. 

I'll also say that while I am a big believer in purchasing quality gear that will carry you into the future, that's not always practical, and often this mailing list tends towards answers that are well above the needs of the people asking. This is the perfect example of that, as you will have several people here tell you that you absolutely need to spent at least a thousand dollars to get a quality firewire interface. 

The fact of the matter is, I run a lot of dance shows and performances with basic needs, and the Presonus Firebox that I purchased used off Craigslist for $75 performs superbly. The quality of its output is good enough that there are only one or two theaters in all of Austin where it might even be questioned a the weak point in the system, and I've never once heart a a bad word about its quality from audience or audio techs. I will also say that I don't think I've ever seen a post on this mailing list about an issue with the Presonus firewire drives giving people problems, whereas if you do a search for MOTU, you'll find quite a few people having issues with drivers and connections. I'm not dissing MOTU, just commenting on what I see on this list, and why I chose Presonus. 

Again, I am not trying to start any fights, just stating that there are a lot of professionals on this list who have very different requirements than the rest of the world, and very different ideas about what is necessary.

Good luck!

Stephen Pruitt

Fluxion Scenic and Light

www.fluxiondesigns.com

See my photography at Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/seamonkey78704/sets/

"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir things up occasionally, all the scum rises to the top." - Edward Abbey

[Morgan Calma]

In Cue Mix the control software and on the hardware its self provides eq on the input side and the output.  Because the computer routes through the output you must adjust the eq for the output.

[Dave Tosti-Lane]

I agree the firebox works well - but it is only 6 outputs.
I have heard great stuff about the Roland octo-pre.
M-audio are not terribly robust.

----

On May 4, 2011, at 7:59 AM, "Stephen Pruitt" <stephen....@gmail.com<mailto:stephen....@gmail.com>> wrote:

This comes up a lot, so I'd definitely read back in the archives.

I'll also say that while I am a big believer in purchasing quality gear that will carry you into the future, that's not always practical, and often this mailing list tends towards answers that are well above the needs of the people asking. This is the perfect example of that, as you will have several people here tell you that you absolutely need to spent at least a thousand dollars to get a quality firewire interface.

The fact of the matter is, I run a lot of dance shows and performances with basic needs, and the Presonus Firebox that I purchased used off Craigslist for $75 performs superbly. The quality of its output is good enough that there are only one or two theaters in all of Austin where it might even be questioned a the weak point in the system, and I've never once heart a a bad word about its quality from audience or audio techs. I will also say that I don't think I've ever seen a post on this mailing list about an issue with the Presonus firewire drives giving people problems, whereas if you do a search for MOTU, you'll find quite a few people having issues with drivers and connections. I'm not dissing MOTU, just commenting on what I see on this list, and why I chose Presonus.

Again, I am not trying to start any fights, just stating that there are a lot of professionals on this list who have very different requirements than the rest of the world, and very different ideas about what is necessary.

Good luck!

Stephen Pruitt

Fluxion Scenic and Light

<http://www.fluxiondesigns.com>www.fluxiondesigns.com<http://www.fluxiondesigns.com>

See my photography at Flickr: <http://www.flickr.com/photos/seamonkey78704/sets/> http://www.flickr.com/photos/seamonkey78704/sets/

"Society is like a stew. If you don't stir things up occasionally, all the scum rises to the top." - Edward Abbey

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[Mark Valenzuela]

+1 for MOTU Ultralite.

It has been 100% rock solid for me. I have the original one and would not hesitate to buy another - couple hundred bucks would get you a used one on eBay, couple hundred more would get you a new one with a warranty, a hybrid USB/FireWire interface, and a couple other small differences. Another thing I love about it is that it outputs enough volume to go directly into amps, thereby not needing to worry about the quality, reliability, or I/O of a console. Very handy for shows with playback only. Cheaper interfaces I've found often need the gain boost a console will provide.

You definitely get what you pay for with interfaces, and the reliability of a good one is worth it IMHO.

Good luck!

Mark V.

Sent from my iPhone

[Peter Dawson]

If you want something reasonably cheap, and I know this is turning into an internet gear forum discussion, I suggest going with Echo. I've had issues with Motu's drivers and firmware upgrades and have been in the company of 2 or 3 different designer/operators who have had output routing issues (Are L&R  qlab outputs 1 and 2  or are 1 & 2 outputs 1 & 2 in qlab?.) You drag and drop the audio mixer, cue mix doesn't seem to be like this.
I recommend against m-audio though I am an owner of a profire. Whilst most firewire devices prefer bing turned on before the computer, m-audio devices tned to spit it most.
The Echo audiofire 8 has by far been the most reliable interface I've used with the exception of RME but the price is difference is pretty big. The only downside is the TRS outputs are a little close for some connectors.

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:38 AM, Mark Valenzuela <markval...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

+1 for MOTU Ultralite.

  Another thing I love about it is that it outputs enough volume to go directly into amps, thereby not needing to worry about the quality, reliability, or I/O of a console.

Interfaces should be outputting line level in just about all cases. It should be fractions of a dB difference from one interface to the next. Maybe your experience of interfaces not having the juice is in it's digital mixing/routing program.

[Mark Valenzuela]

  Another thing I love about it is that it outputs enough volume to go directly into amps, thereby not needing to worry about the quality, reliability, or I/O of a console.

Interfaces should be outputting line level in just about all cases. It should be fractions of a dB difference from one interface to the next. Maybe your experience of interfaces not having the juice is in it's digital mixing/routing program.

I primarily use a Firewire 410 and an Ultralite, and have done A-B comparisons between them with an SPL meter, and have (unfortunately!) had to swap one for the other in tech and show runs on a few occasions. The Ultralite's max output level is about +14 db louder than the 410's. They've been set properly on the respective units & in their software. Perhaps it's just the 410, not a particularly great interface for many reasons! Sorry to be vague with my previous comment - that has been my experience with these two units. 

Best, Mark

[Peter Dawson]

Ah-huh. It sounds like the 410 either runs at -10dBV. The M-audio is seen as semi-pro and the Ultralite as Pro running line level at +4dBu. And with quick investigation:

"The rear panel contains the two line input sockets and eight line output sockets (all of which are on unbalanced quarter-inch jacks at -10dBV level)"

I primarily use a Firewire 410 and an Ultralite, and have done A-B comparisons between them with an SPL meter, and have (unfortunately!) had to swap one for the other in tech and show runs on a few occasions. The Ultralite's max output level is about +14 db louder than the 410's. They've been set properly on the respective units & in their software. Perhaps it's just the 410, not a particularly great interface for many reasons! Sorry to be vague with my previous comment - that has been my experience with these two units. 

Best, Mark

[Charles Coes]

But the echo hardware (at least the previous generation) sounds bad. It has a very high noise floor.

Say what you will about bad systems masking bad interfaces, but when you pile bad sound on bad sound it does get worse.

Charles Coes
cco...@gmail.com 
www.charlescoes.com
"When I'm working on a problem, I never think about beauty. I think only how to solve the problem. But when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong." - Buckminster Fuller

[Mark Valenzuela]

> Ah-huh. It sounds like the 410 either runs at -10dBV.

Exactly. The 410 has unbalanced -10db outs and the Ultralite balanced +4. The disadvantage of unbalanced outs at consumer gain level has been a pain in a number of situations. Something to pay attention to when considering a cheap interface.