Video and M1. Has anyone made the leap?

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matt.t...@gmail.com

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Jul 26, 2021, 10:07:45 AM7/26/21
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Hi all, apologies if this has been answered elsewhere...

My work are gearing up to upgrade all of our machines (company wide) and have made the decision to go M1. It is expected that from the start of next year we will have new computers. I've made my reservations about the change from Intel to M1 known, however, I am under some pressure to accept the move to the new architecture.

At face value I can recognise a heap of value that could be gained by moving to the new system, however, due to the system being so young, and because I can't find examples of others who have made the transition yet, I'm a bit worried.

My gut feeling is that I would be better suited with an intel machine that has a 'conventional' graphics chip.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Sam Kusnetz

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Jul 26, 2021, 10:13:42 AM7/26/21
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Hi Matt

The GPU cores within Apple’s M1 are very impressive, and basic video performance on M1-based Macs is terrific.

The M1 itself has a hard limit of two displays, which means your operator’s monitor plus a single audience-facing video output. This limitation can be alleviated to a certain degree by using something like a Datapath or Matrox video device which appears to the Mac as a single HD or 4K display, and then slices up its raster into two, three, or four separate outputs.

If I were working on a new project that fit within the constraints of a single physical video output, I would find the M1 Mac Mini very appealing.

If I needed more outputs than that, I would default back to an Intel-based Mac Pro or MacBook Pro.

I do not have any inside information whatsoever, but I think we all should have every reason to believe that a future M-style processor from Apple will support more video outputs.

Best
Sam

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Benjamin Farrar

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Jul 26, 2021, 11:34:16 AM7/26/21
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Hi Sam,

Has Figure53 considered a light weight video playback only version of Qlab? 

1. Playback video cues that are loaded on a dictated Mac mini via OSC.

2. Surface editing.

Just a thought.

Benjamin Farrar


Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 26, 2021, at 9:13 AM, Sam Kusnetz <s...@figure53.com> wrote:



Sam Kusnetz

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Jul 26, 2021, 12:12:34 PM7/26/21
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Hi Benjamin

Can you tell us a little more about what you’re thinking?

Right now it seems to me that what you’re describing is no different from how QLab works right now. You can set up video surfaces, edit those surfaces, then set up cues and either play them locally or use MIDI, MSC, OSC, or timecode from an external source to play those cues.

Best
Sam

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Greg Leeper

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Jul 26, 2021, 9:49:29 PM7/26/21
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Sam's info re: M1 mini only supporting 1 external display is what Apple specs are, however I have a friend that used a SIIG dock that allowed him to connect 2 displays.  The dock was not cheap at about $250, and it also uses 'Display Link' tech to do it - 

Sam, does Qlab support 'Display Link'?

Sam Kusnetz

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Jul 27, 2021, 9:33:39 AM7/27/21
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On Jul 26, 2021 at 9:49:29 PM, Greg Leeper <gr...@opticusvideo.com> wrote:
Sam's info re: M1 mini only supporting 1 external display is what Apple specs are, however I have a friend that used a SIIG dock that allowed him to connect 2 displays.  The dock was not cheap at about $250, and it also uses 'Display Link' tech to do it - 

Sam, does Qlab support 'Display Link’?

Hi Greg

The very short answer is: yes this will work with QLab, and no I do not recommend it at all.

The longer answer:

DisplayLink, unfortunately, is a term that means a lot of different things in the world of computers. When you’re referring to a piece of hardware that seems to provide a magical extra video output, however, what it means is a super hacky driver which you install on your Mac and which simulates an additional video output. This driver has no access to the GPU, however, so it causes the Mac to create a non-GPU-accelerated video output over USB which the hardware device converts to a DVI or HDMI signal.

There’s no such thing as a particular app supporting DisplayLink or not; it happens at the system level. As far as QLab is concerned, a DisplayLink-connected screen is just a screen, and so you can play video on it. But since this screen can’t connect to the GPU, and since it travels via USB, it usually performs poorly when really put to the task.

If I could wave my wand and un-invent DisplayLink, I absolutely would. Before I knew much about it, I thought it was awesome! Extra video output? Who doesn’t need that? So I used it on a show, and one day about a week into the run I got a panicked phone call from the operator at about ten minutes to curtain because the DisplayLink adapter just stopped passing pixels. It was on, its indicator lights worked, the Mac thought there was a screen there, but no pixels. After a reboot it worked again. Another reboot later it stopped working again. This kept happening, so I read up on Display Link troubleshooting and read story after story of total software failure at inopportune moments.

Hence my enthusiastic recommendation to stay far, far away from any USB DisplayLink video adapters.

Part of what makes this challenging to talk about these days is the USB-C port and the way it can transform itself… the USB-C port on modern Macs is not a USB port! It’s more clever than that; it connects to different busses within the Mac based on what you plug into it. So if you plug in a video adapter (a “real” one, one that does not need DisplayLink drivers installed), it connects to the GPU output bus. If you plug in a Thunderbolt device like a high-end dock or audio interface, it connects to the PCIe bus. Only if you plug in a native USB device like a USB hub or mouse or printer does that USB-C port actually connect to the USB bus. So it can be very confusing when I say things like “don’t use USB video adapters!” because you might look at your USB-C to HDMI adapter and think I’m talking about that, but I am not.

The rule is this:

  1. If your video adapter has a lighting bolt icon on it, it’s cool.
  2. If your video adapter specifically refers to using DisplayPort (port! not link!), it’s cool.
  3. If your video adapter is made by Apple or Sonnet.
  4. If your video adapter requires you to download and install special software, it is NOT cool.

Greg Leeper

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Jul 27, 2021, 1:54:42 PM7/27/21
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Thanks Sam, there is so much confusing info about Display Port/Link & USB C vs. Thunderbolt 3 adaptors... especially when shopping at popular online next day delivery sites...  I was hoping you would break it down clearly for us!  

The fact that the same port on apple products can be called USB C and Thunderbolt 3 seemingly interchangeable makes it worse.
Even an apple senior support advisor on the phone didn't accept that my T3->HDMI display adaptor should work just as well if not better than a USB C to HDMI adaptor... insisting I specifically needed to use a USB C NOT T3 display adaptor.

At the Apple store they also sell the CalDigit T3 dock which has dual HDMI outputs @4K60.

I also tested the Cable Matters 'Intel certified' dual output adaptor:

Any thoughts on these?

micpool

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Jul 27, 2021, 4:21:57 PM7/27/21
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All of CalDigit’s docks are fully compatible with the new M1-based Macs including the ability to charge a laptop and more. However, the only limitation is that the new M1-based Macs cannot support dual “Extended” displays through their Thunderbolt 3 ports. This means that when using any dock, users cannot extend their desktop over two displays, and will be limited to either dual “Mirrored” displays or 1 external display depending on the dock.

Sam Kusnetz

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Jul 27, 2021, 4:25:32 PM7/27/21
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On Jul 27, 2021 at 1:54:42 PM, Greg Leeper <gr...@opticusvideo.com> wrote:
Thanks Sam, there is so much confusing info about Display Port/Link & USB C vs. Thunderbolt 3 adaptors... especially when shopping at popular online next day delivery sites...  I was hoping you would break it down clearly for us!  

Happy to do it!

What I find useful, personally speaking, is to constantly remind myself that USB-C is the name of a connector ONLY, not a signal or protocol, just like XLR3 is the name of a connector only. We sometimes casually refer to cable with XLR connectors as “mic cable” but in fact the signal that travels over that cable could be mic level analogue audio, line level analogue audio, AES digital audio, DMX512 lighting control data, etc.

USB-C was a very unfortunate choice of name for this connector because USB is the name of a protocol, so it’s easy to assume that USB-C connectors are used for USB data. I really, really wish they’d just named the connector differently.

The fact that the same port on apple products can be called USB C and Thunderbolt 3 seemingly interchangeable makes it worse.

I agree with you, but it’s also honestly accurate to call the port both USB-C and Thunderbolt 3, since USB-C is the name of the connector and Thunderbolt 3 is the name of the protocol.

Confused yet? But wait, it gets much worse!

- Thunderbolt USB-C ports can act as USB ports.
- USB-only USB-C ports exist.
- On some Macs, all USB-C ports are Thunderbolt ports (“new” Mac Pro, MacBook Pro 15” or 16”)
- On some Macs, all USB-C ports are USB ports (Retina MacBook, lower-end M1 iMac)
- On some Macs, there some USB-C ports which are Thunderbolt ports, and some which are USB-only (some 13” MacBook Pros, the higher-end M1 iMac)

Ready for more?

Thunderbolt 4 now exists, and it also uses USB-C connectors. It’s alarmingly similar to Thunderbolt 3, though not identical. TB4 doesn’t raise the upper performance limits over TB4, but it does raise the floor for the lowest acceptable performance.

USB4 now exists, and it ALSO uses USB-C connectors. What is USB4? It’s almost exactly just Thunderbolt 3 with a different sticker on the box. Why? Nobody knows. Truly bizarre.

Even an apple senior support advisor on the phone didn't accept that my T3->HDMI display adaptor should work just as well if not better than a USB C to HDMI adaptor... insisting I specifically needed to use a USB C NOT T3 display adaptor.

Yeah, this person was just flat wrong, of course. Calling it a "USB-C to HDMI adapter” certainly describes the object, but does not describe the essence of the object… that description could apply to any of the following:

- a Thunderbolt 4 video adapter that uses DisplayPort
- a Thunderbolt 3 video adapter that uses DisplayPort
- a USB4 video adapter that uses DisplayPort
- a USB video adapter that uses (terrible, horrid) DisplayLink

So this person was really insisting that you use a less precise description of your device, which helps nobody.

At the Apple store they also sell the CalDigit T3 dock which has dual HDMI outputs @4K60.

I also tested the Cable Matters 'Intel certified' dual output adaptor:

Any thoughts on these?

Since both those devices are clearly labeled as Thunderbolt devices, my expectation is that screens which are connected to them will connect via DisplayPort, which will allow them to behave properly and have full access to the GPU. If you connect those devices to an M1-based Mac, I would not expect them to make it possible to have more than two total screens, since two screens total is an inherent limitation of the M1’s architecture. I bet if you plugged one of those into an M1 MacBook and plugged in two screens, you’d get the same image on both screens, but I don’t know for sure.

Here’s a link to the DisplayLink website, which is a convenient list of display adapters to NEVER use or trust in any way: https://www.displaylink.com/products/usb-adapters

I hope this has been helpful. It’s not simple, it’s not reasonable, and if you’re having any trouble with it I hope you truly understand that it’s not your fault, it’s the fault of the USB-IF, which is the trade group that decides how to name and market these things.

All my best

micpool

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Jul 27, 2021, 4:26:18 PM7/27/21
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And Cable Matters website:

Dual Display Limitation

  • Mac computers with the new M1 chip support only a single external display. This is a limitation of the Mac computer hardware.

On Tuesday, July 27, 2021 at 6:54:42 PM UTC+1 gr...@opticusvideo.com wrote:

Andy Dolph

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Jul 27, 2021, 4:49:27 PM7/27/21
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Does that mean an M1 Mac mini can only support on display?

On Jul 27, 2021, at 4:26 PM, micpool <m...@micpool.com> wrote:

And Cable Matters website:
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aroom

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Jul 27, 2021, 4:57:49 PM7/27/21
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https://www.apple.com/mac-mini/specs/

One display with up to 6K resolution at 60Hz connected via Thunderbolt and one display with up to 4K resolution at 60Hz connected via HDMI 2.0

all M1 can support two displays. if you have a laptop, you have one display already embedded.

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