Re: [QLab] Midi Trigger Control panel

[ra byn taylor]

What is your budget & how handy are you? 

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Steve Ratcliff <stever...@gmail.com> wrote:

I know this has been discussed to varying degrees but I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for as far as answers.

I would like to cue QLab with a midi controller so that it doesn't have to be the "focused" application

I would like not only a large GO button but also a few programable hot keys

I would like the action of a solid keypad.  Rubber buttons don't seem to give the positive tactile feedback that I would like.

This being said, I'm curious if a combination of X-Keys running ControllerMate outputting MIDI messages will properly operate QLab or if I should look in another direction.

[Steve Ratcliff]

Budget depends on quality of the gear.  Could pay a couple hundred if it meets my needs.

I am handy, but would rather buy something that looks more finished.  I would rather not drill out a project box but could modify wiring of a nice piece of hardware if that's all I'm looking at.  

Thanks!

-S

[ra byn taylor]

Ignoring the option you mentioned already which I can't speak of, in my mind there are really only a few options that get you in the game fast & tried & true.

In order of ready out of the box. 

1. Andy's custom trigger device. I'll have one some day:)  

2. JLCooper MCS-2 Midi. I have 2 of these on Qlab rigs & they are great but overly expensive now & they blew the last customer support exchange. The molded plastic midi / power connection is crap for a pro device. They sent me a replacement cable off their bench but it had the same short in the same place. So I cut the end off of the power connector & replaced it with a new one from Radio Shack. No more issues since. The device  requires power but doesn't provide power onto the midi out so if you're going to use it with a device downstream that requires buss power (a midi splitter / merge), you'll need to add a Midi Solutions Power Adapter. 

I'd buy another one if I got a great deal on it but not at the normal sales price.  

3. Midi Solutions F8 & build your own push button box. I don't like the 8 TS cables concept. For the last touring rig I put together, I modified one & added a 9 pin AMP connector & built a 8 button trigger box with a 9 pin AMP connector. Built a cable with male ends & it works like a charm. Without that extra work, you're stuck dealing with 8 1/4" connections on both ends. Great if you want to trigger things  from different places but no so if you just want to trigger everything from FOH. 

Lastly, 

4. Highly Liquid midi controller board & add your own PSU, enclosure & push buttons.

http://store.highlyliquid.com/collections/midi-controllers/products/midi-cpu

I have one of these & I plan on building a Qlab trigger box with it some day but at the moment I'm too busy to drill & tap...

Guitar players are using these boxes to trick out their pedal boards & amp switching rigs. 

A very affordable route to go if you have the patience & the time. Company's customer support is great & there is a really active user list. 

Those are the options as I see it. Certainly not the only options but the ones I know about first hand. 

 If I had to buy one for a gig this weekend I'd text Andy tonight & ask him to overnight it to me for Sat delivery. I own 4 or 5 Midi Solutions F8 so it's hard for me to buy something else right now.  

All 4 options could serve the purpose well.

Best,

ra byn

[Andy Leviss]

On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:38 PM, Steve Ratcliff <stever...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm going to answer backwards, because most of this email is going to be a detailed answer about products I manufacture, so I want to put the other specific hardware question you asked first.

> This being said, I'm curious if a combination of X-Keys running ControllerMate outputting MIDI messages will properly operate QLab or if I should look in another direction.

Yes, an X-Keys and ControllerMate will do this for a single-computer system, or you can use the free/open-source midihid, which works great but lacks the pretty GUI. If you want to try this, I can send you an example script for it that works with the X-Keys Stick.

http://code.google.com/p/midihid/

The caveat I'll throw out, though, is that the buttons suck. They're relatively small surface-mount switches under the keycaps, and not only don't have terribly great tactile feedback in my opinion, they also get worn out and glitchy pretty easily. I just put one out on a national tour as hotkey triggers for some visually cued sound effects, and it took a lot of loving with Caig sprays to get it to stop missing presses on some buttons and double-go'ing on others.

> I know this has been discussed to varying degrees but I can't seem to find exactly what I'm looking for as far as answers.
>
> I would like to cue QLab with a midi controller so that it doesn't have to be the "focused" application
> I would like not only a large GO button but also a few programable hot keys

COMMERCIAL PLUG COMING. BEWARE.

With the caveat that it's my own product, I'd suggest the Duck's Echo Sound MR line of MIDI remotes. We have both "standard" MIDI and USB MIDI versions now, for the same price. The USB version powers off the USB connection, and requires no drivers to be installed. Just plug it in, and it works. The standard version requires a power supply, which has a screw collar locking connector to make sure it doesn't come out at an inopportune moment.

There are now three models, the MR-4 ($325), MR-42 ($385), and the MR-6 ($525). The MR-4 was reviewed very positively by Live Design Magazine in 2011, and the MR-6 received their "Product of the Year" award:

http://livedesignonline.com/gear/sound/0512_ducks_echo_mr6/

From your description, you would want either the -42 or -6, both of which feature Go/Stop/Previous/Next buttons, and then two additional buttons that you can use for whatever you need. One of those can be set to toggle between two alternating messages, so you can use it to trigger switching to a backup machine on a redundant system.

The MR-4 and -42 are both in a black ABS enclosure with rubber grip sides; the MR-6 moves up to an anodized aluminum enclosure, and also adds a GPI connection on top via a combo XLR/TS jack, which can take a standard footswitch, or can be used to provide power to a lighted GO button. This input can have it's own trigger, or duplicate the internal Go button.

The MR-4 series are regularly stocked items, the MR-6 is now only available on a made-to-order basis, so takes slightly longer to ship. We can also do custom versions with more or less buttons, etc; a custom 8-button, dual MIDI output version runs the video systems on a number of the Blue Man Group shows around the country, for example.

(In USB only, we're about to release two single-button, sub $100 options; email off-list if these are of interest.)

> I would like the action of a solid keypad.  Rubber buttons don't seem to give the positive tactile feedback that I would like.

I spent a ridiculous amount of time researching and testing buttons when designing these remotes. I finally settled on ones that have a really crisp tactile click when they trigger, but are still quiet, so they won't distract nearby audience members. They're also IP67 sealed, and rated for a million cycles, which in normal person terms means they can take a beating for days.

(Full disclosure, we did have a small run that had defective buttons and were more prone to double triggers. To my knowledge, these have all been repaired and replaced at no cost to the end user. If anybody out there does have one that hasn't been, they should contact me, and we'll get it taken care of ASAP!)

All the buttons are debounced to avoid double/false triggers, and the Go button also has a proprietary context-aware double-go protection. In 99% of cases, the default setting is good for most users, but if you find you need to adjust it, it's easy to do it with no tools, no SysEx strings, or anything else convoluted.

(The same simple programming functions are what allow you to set the aux button to toggle mode, and to switch whether the GPI triggers the Go or its own message. You just hold down one of the buttons while powering up the remote to change the settings.)

Anyway, that's my shpiel. Our retail site is getting closer and closer to launching, but right now the current www.DucksEcho.com is pretty sparse. If you want more info, or to order, email me, and I'll get you taken care of right away with an invoice and a payment link so you can pay via credit card.

Here's the MR-4 and MR-6, the MR-42 is waiting for its date with the photographer, but it's identical to the MR-4, except with the button layout of the MR-6. (The big jack you see sticking out is the power jack, with extended threads for the locking connector.)

And thus ends my plug,

Andy

[Steve Ratcliff]

 Thanks ra byn,

Lots of great info!

  

In order of ready out of the box. 

1. Andy's custom trigger device. I'll have one some day:)  

Maybe I will too, but can't justify the cost currently.

 

2. JLCooper MCS-2 Midi. I have 2 of these on Qlab rigs & they are great but overly expensive now & they blew the last customer support exchange. The molded plastic midi / power connection is crap for a pro device. They sent me a replacement cable off their bench but it had the same short in the same place. So I cut the end off of the power connector & replaced it with a new one from Radio Shack. No more issues since. The device  requires power but doesn't provide power onto the midi out so if you're going to use it with a device downstream that requires buss power (a midi splitter / merge), you'll need to add a Midi Solutions Power Adapter. 

I'd buy another one if I got a great deal on it but not at the normal sales price.  

Cost.  Form factor is almost there but still a bit large. 

3. Midi Solutions F8 & build your own push button box. I don't like the 8 TS cables concept. For the last touring rig I put together, I modified one & added a 9 pin AMP connector & built a 8 button trigger box with a 9 pin AMP connector. Built a cable with male ends & it works like a charm. Without that extra work, you're stuck dealing with 8 1/4" connections on both ends. Great if you want to trigger things  from different places but no so if you just want to trigger everything from FOH. 

I am an independent FOH engineer so I must also consider space.  This is way to big for what it does.  It would make a ton of sense on a touring show but not for a simple keypad entry..

 

Lastly, 

4. Highly Liquid midi controller board & add your own PSU, enclosure & push buttons.

http://store.highlyliquid.com/collections/midi-controllers/products/midi-cpu

This actually looks pretty cool!  If I found a button enclosure that I liked I might consider putting in the time to build myself a custom unit... 

 

[Steve Ratcliff]

Thanks Andy!

I wasn't able to see clearly on your website that your MR-6 is a metal enclosure.  The reviews more clearly picture the metal case and it looks good! If I could justify the $525 for a QLab remote I would be all over it.  Stoked that you're releasing a MIDI over USB option as well! As an independent FOH engineer, it's still a bit costly for my kit at the moment.

I hadn't thought of X-Keys as being the cheap route but I might go that way.  Thanks for the info regarding MIDI from ControllerMate and midihid!

-Steve

[cmonaghan76]

Have you considered a Q-Widget USB? It, too, will run QLab with it not being focused. 

COMMERCIAL PLUG HERE, TOO

It is dual USB for system redundancy. No MIDI license for QLab required. Powered from the USB bus. Highest quality components (from the broadcast switching world) with double-GO protection and a footswitch jack for hands-free "GO" commands. The push-knob will have some custom functionality coming soon with an upcoming software release. It provides cue selection, stop, pause, and GO commands.

The upcoming software release will allow the encoder knob to be pushed, thus changing its function. For example, it could be a LOAD button, or a VOLUME button (to change the role of the encoder to volume adjustment rather than cue selection). In addition, the software update will allow the Q-Widget to be used with iTunes. All signals from the remote can have custom AppleScript assigned to them. 

You can see it at http://widgeteering.com

Chris

[E R Casey]

Real estate is getting harder to come by at FOH these days.  I'm looking ever harder at the idea of either a numeric pad or the Apple Magic trackpad for running Q Cart and Q Lab and just generally getting around on the comp without having it in prime mixing area reach.   Most shows can be done with the 10 cues available on a numeric pad but the track pad is pretty slick for all the other mousing around it could do.  Anyone using either one and have observations pro or con?

Thanks for any suggestions

Riley

E. R. Casey

Entertainment Sound Production

2311 Kansas Ave.

Silver Spring MD 20910

www.ESPsound.com

301-608-2180 office phone

301-608-0789 fax

301-440-2923 shoe phone

[ra byn taylor]

I've got a Qlab rig running on the bluetooth based Apple trackpad. As long as you keep the battery fresh, I don't think there is any inherent issue. But the same system is actually triggered via MIDI so it's no a big deal if it doesn't work.

I personally don't like relying on airwaves or batteries for mission critical stuff. There might also be a slight lag between GO & play with bluetooth. Might also be ignorable.

Let us know what you come to!

ra byn

[Dave Wallingford]

I haven't used it with QCart yet, but I like my X-Keys when using it with Sports Sounds Pro. I have the older generation 20 key version, which is about the same size as a standalone numeric keypad.

http://www.piengineering.com/xkeys.php

- Dave Wallingford