[QLab] MSC on ETC

[fk...@email.de]

So, here goes...

I have the following issue with MSC/MSysEx controlling our ETC Express 48/96 (yesyesyes, I know, ancient ;)... but it was what we could get for free, and it's reliable... ) :

I want to fire specific cues rather then just a general GO, and so I made a MSC Cue with Command "GO", Device ID "3" (which is the one I set up in the console), Q Number "56.2" and Q List "2" (which refers to the C/D Fader group on the board), Q Path empty.
When I fire the Cue, nothing happened.
So I created a MIDI SysEx Cue and typed in the raw Hex that the ETC manual prescribes, namely:
"7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 00"

with QLab adding F0 and F7, the message, recorded in a MIDI monitor, looks like this:

"F0 7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 00 F7"

This actually works and does fire the desired Cue. So I looked at what the other MSC Cue sends in said MIDI monitor:

"F0 7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 F7"

As you can see, the MSC frame packets are exactly identical, except for the omitted Delimiter "00" before the ending "F7".

What's the go, is ETC not conforming to standard demanding the delimiter (as it does in its manual at http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/manuals/Express_Two-scene_Preset_v3.1_User_Manual.pdf on page 284 (which is 298 in the pdf)? I mean, I've found a work around, but I'd rather not write 120 lighting cues in Hex if I don't have to :P. Assuming that it's not a bug (or somebody else would have mentioned it before), would there be a possibility in the preferences of either the cue or the workspace/application for a tick at "Trailing Delimiter" or something along those lines? At the moment, neither cue settings nor preferences look particularly cluttered...

cheers,

Freddy
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[Charlie Richmond]

On Sun, 25 Oct 2009, fk...@email.de wrote:

> "F0 7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 00 F7"
>
> This actually works and does fire the desired Cue. So I looked at what the other MSC Cue sends in said MIDI monitor:
>
> "F0 7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 F7"
>
> As you can see, the MSC frame packets are exactly identical, except for the omitted Delimiter "00" before the ending "F7".
>
> What's the go, is ETC not conforming to standard demanding the delimiter (as
> it does in its manual at
> http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/manuals/Express_Two-scene_Preset_v3.1_User_Manual.pdf
> on page 284 (which is 298 in the pdf)? I mean, I've found a work around, but
> I'd rather not write 120 lighting cues in Hex if I don't have to :P. Assuming
> that it's not a bug (or somebody else would have mentioned it before), would
> there be a possibility in the preferences of either the cue or the
> workspace/application for a tick at "Trailing Delimiter" or something along
> those lines? At the moment, neither cue settings nor preferences look
> particularly cluttered...

Probably a good idea but you are absolutely correct that the ETC implementation
does not conform to the standard and should be more tolerant since the spec is
quite specific about devices being able to handle any number of delimiters.

Charlie

[Andy Leviss]

On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 9:08 PM, <fk...@email.de> wrote:
> I mean, I've found a work around, but I'd rather not write 120 lighting cues in Hex if I don't have to :P

At my request this past summer, fellow list member David Bibby wrote a
very cool little program that can take variables and produce a cue
list of SysEx cues in QLab, so you would basically type in the SysEx,
with a variable for the cue number, and tell it what numbers to cycle
for the cue number. It can even do nested sets, I used it to produce
group assign (aka dca assign) messages for a DM2000, so it was
creating a cue for each group A-H, for each ch 1-17. Hit go, go grab a
cup of coffee, and when you're back, you've got a cuelist in QLab with
all your SysEx cues done for you!

I'll leave it to David to post info on how to get it from him!

--A

[Christopher Ashworth]

On Oct 25, 2009, at 12:28 AM, Charlie Richmond wrote:

> On Sun, 25 Oct 2009, fk...@email.de wrote:
>
>> "F0 7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 00 F7"
>>
>> This actually works and does fire the desired Cue. So I looked at
>> what the other MSC Cue sends in said MIDI monitor:
>>
>> "F0 7F 03 02 01 01 35 36 2E 32 00 32 F7"
>>
>> As you can see, the MSC frame packets are exactly identical, except
>> for the omitted Delimiter "00" before the ending "F7".
>>
>> What's the go, is ETC not conforming to standard demanding the
>> delimiter (as it does in its manual at http://www.etcconnect.com/docs/docs_downloads/manuals/Express_Two-scene_Preset_v3.1_User_Manual.pdf
>> on page 284 (which is 298 in the pdf)? I mean, I've found a work
>> around, but I'd rather not write 120 lighting cues in Hex if I
>> don't have to :P. Assuming that it's not a bug (or somebody else
>> would have mentioned it before), would there be a possibility in
>> the preferences of either the cue or the workspace/application for
>> a tick at "Trailing Delimiter" or something along those lines? At
>> the moment, neither cue settings nor preferences look particularly
>> cluttered...
>
> Probably a good idea but you are absolutely correct that the ETC
> implementation does not conform to the standard and should be more
> tolerant since the spec is quite specific about devices being able
> to handle any number of delimiters.

Yup. Page 284 in the ETC manual is wrong. The trailing delimiter
byte is not a requirement for an MSC message.

If there is a long list of hardware that requires this trailing
delimiter, then I'd consider making some kind of built-in option to
work around it. However if there are only a few isolated devices I
think the use of the SysEx cue is probably the appropriate workaround.

-C

[Ben Chaisson]

" However if there are only a few isolated devices I think the use of the SysEx cue is probably the appropriate workaround." There are alot of these consoles around. I would say there are probably as many as ten times the number of these consoles in theatres across North America than there are Qlab rigs. Just saying. Ben Chaisson --- On Sun, 10/25/09, Christopher Ashworth <ch...@figure53.com> wrote:

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[Stephen Pruitt]

"There are alot of these consoles around. I would say there are probably as many as ten times the number of these consoles in theatres across North America than there are Qlab rigs. Just saying. "

I believe Ben is, if anything, understating it. At least in the small to medium size houses, the ETC Express and Expressions make up at least half of the boards I have run into while touring with two dance companies, and also make up more than half of the consoles used here in town at the various theaters. 

But I'm not sure why Freddy is  having this problem with this specific console, as I'm currently running a show on that same board without any problems whatsoever... in fact, I was amazed at how smoothly the MSC worked right out of the gate, and I've now run shows through Qlab on at least five different ETC boards here in town, including the Express 24/48, the 48/96 and the Expression 3.

Obviously, I'd double check all the settings and preferences first, but since it sounds like your board is just being finicky about accepting commands, could it be the console software? Is your console running ETCs software version 3? Have you tried leaving the qlist blank (is there a reason you need to use the second bank of faders?) and setting it to a general lighting format? These small simplifications shouldn't matter, but I've more than once gotten things to work by changing something that shouldn't make a difference. : /

Alternatively, could it be your intermediate device? How are you getting from the laptop to the console? 

Stephen Pruitt

Fluxion Scenic and Light

www.fluxiondesigns.com

See my photography at Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/seamonkey78704/sets/

[Christopher Ashworth]

Right--this is more what I meant.  I know the ETC boards are widespread, but I also know that they're used regularly with QLab without problems. I  just meant if there is, say, an old model that didn't work according to the spec, but most of them do work, that it's probably not worth putting in a preference for a model that is not widely used. 

I'm far from an expert on lighting boards, though, so I continue to read the discussion here with interest.

-C  

(mobile)

[Ben Chaisson]

I wonder if the original problem though is an ETC thing or a Qlab thing. I've noticed that MSC (midi show control) works like a charm when you run in sequence. Thus not needing the qualifier of the lighting cue number. However in a teching a few scenes situation ( i.e notes and rehearsal) things can go off the rails. Often it is easier to get us into a specific cue with just the lightboard and ignore the Show control. In fact I see this more often than not in reheasal and the op will actually unplug the midi cable so as to noy confuse things. I also found this to be true for Qlab firing Qlab. Using Qlab to fire another computer running qlab for video as an example. The video computer tends to just use the go and ignores the q number so it only fires in sequence. this is perfect behaviour for running a show, in order. however in tech it is less helpful. Needless to say I could be wrong and will surely be told so by someone on list :) Ben Chaisson

--- On Mon, 10/26/09, Christopher Ashworth <ch...@figure53.com> wrote:

From: Christopher Ashworth <ch...@figure53.com> Subject: Re: [QLab] MSC on ETC To: "Discussion and support for QLab users." <ql...@lists.figure53.com>

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[Christopher Ashworth]

On Oct 26, 2009, at 11:25 AM, Ben Chaisson wrote:
>
> I also found this to be true for Qlab firing Qlab. Using Qlab to
> fire another computer running qlab for video as an example. The
> video computer tends to just use the go and ignores the q number so
> it only fires in sequence. this is perfect behaviour for running a
> show, in order. however in tech it is less helpful.

In version 2, if you send QLab an MSC GO with a cue number, then QLab
will use the cue number. (Version 1, however, did not use the cue
number.)

So, I'm not sure about the use of the word "tend" here. It either
receives a cue number or it doesn't, which is something you determine
by the programming of the workspace.

-C

[Ben Chaisson]

Ah My mistake   I was using Version 2 to fire Q's in Version 1. I haven't done this set up for a few months now so my apologies for speaking out of turn. All that aside my real point was when jumping around in cues things can go off. auto follows, auto continues etcetera just something an operator should be aware of. I cannot speak to ETC version software but it does not surprise me that it's midi may not behave to industry standards in part because it is a different industry attached to the overall entertainment industry. Let's save the Light monkey versus Hum scum argument for some other day.  Should You look into this from a Qlab point of view? In my opinion yes as there are so many ETC Express consoles out there with varying levels of software upgrades. Where as Qlab runs off a common computer, (which has common upgrades to it's OS) a lightboard is a purpose built computer. If the software in the lightboard hasn't caused problems for a venue there is less incentive for a venue to upgrade it. Often these venues have limited budgets and upgrading to Qlab is an ideal situation for them. sound and lights run together sounds great so if qlab could run any lightboard  that excepts some version of MSC it's great.  Not trying to make extra work for anyone just a few thoughts Ben

--- On Mon, 10/26/09, Christopher Ashworth <ch...@figure53.com> wrote:

From: Christopher Ashworth <ch...@figure53.com> Subject: Re: [QLab] MSC on ETC To: "Discussion and support for QLab users." <ql...@lists.figure53.com>

---

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[Christopher Ashworth]

On Oct 26, 2009, at 3:56 PM, Ben Chaisson wrote:

> Ah My mistake
> I was using Version 2 to fire Q's in Version 1.
> I haven't done this set up for a few months now so my apologies for
> speaking out of turn.

Oh, no worries about that; I was just confused as to what the
situation was. Thanks for clarifying.

> All that aside my real point was when jumping around in cues things
> can go off.
> auto follows, auto continues etcetera just something an operator
> should be aware of.

Definitely.

Best,

[Penelope Poppers]

Hello all! Sorry to dig up a dead thread. I just recently got an iMac running the most current version of Qlab and I'm trying to get it to fire cues on my ETC Express 48/96 (latest firmware) board. I, like many others (but apparently not everyone) have been having issues getting the Express to recognize my MSC commands. I've seen talk in this thread about having to send SysEx messages written specifically for the Express. Could someone expand on that more? 

Thanks!

[Mike P]

Hey Penelope,

Not sure where the SysEx command came from unless that was an older version of QLab. I hook lighting consoles up with standard MSC commands all the time in version 2. V3 should be almost the exact same idea. Here's what I do:


Connection:

Assuming you have a MIDI OUT port either on your Audio interface or you have a separate MIDI adapter (e. g. MOTU Fastlane)

MIDI Cable from the OUT port on your Mac interface to the IN port on the Express


On the Express 48/96:

Setup
6 - Options
2 - MSC Receive set to a number from 1 to 127. I usually use 1. Send can stay disabled
Stage


In QLab 3:

Settings
MIDI Cue settings
Set the Patch Popup Menu to the MIDI adapter you're using
Click Done

Create a MIDI Cue
Settings Tab
MIDI Destination to the same patch you set above
Message Type to MIDI Show Control
Command Format to Lighting General
Device ID to the same number you picked on the Express

At this point you should have an MSC GO command ready. You can enter a Cue number in that field and the Express should execute whichever cue is in there. With no number, the Express just executes the next cue in the A/B Fader stack (assuming you have one set up on deck).

There's a way to execute things on the C/D Fader as well using, I think, the Q List field. We ran into that this summer because the A/B GO button was dead and we were using C/D. I think it was 0 for A/B and 1 for C/D, but I could be wrong there.


Hope this helps!

Mike Post
(601) 307-8657
mdp...@mac.com
http://mdpostdesign.com

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[Penelope Poppers]

Hey Mike,

I've tried what should be the 'correct' way of doing it (what you described), to no avail. Using MIDI monitor, I can see that the hex string that Qlab is spitting out is correct (as per the ETC manual and "Control systems for live entertainment"), but the board isn't responding. I can send MSC signals from the board to Qlab and the computer can see them, so I know that MIDI transfer (of some sort) is happening. I've been reading and people are talking about the Express boards possibly not sticking to the MSC standard, so the standard MSC signals are not understood by Express. Looking at the command from the Express "Go cue 1 on the AB fader from Device 2", it looks like this

00  F0 7F 02 02 01 31 00 31  00 F7 

Which seems to stick to the MSC standard, with the exception of the leading 00. Could this be the problem? It seems that Qlab adds these on, even if I send a SysMsg

[Mike P]

Interesting. Unfortunately I don't have an Express in front of me. I tried mocking it up in both QLab 2 and 3 and got the same string in MIDI Monitor for both which was not the same as yours. Sending a GO to Lighting General on Device 2 and Q Number 1with no other parameters gives me this:

00 F0 7F 02 02 7F 01 31 F7

I'm 90% confident this works so my suggestion to you is to try again with the Q List and Q Path fields blank. Otherwise, I think there may be something odd in the settings of your Express. You said you can send MIDI so I assume you have the Show Control Transmit Device ID set. Is the Receive set as well? It's two separate fields separated on the option line by a slash. Receive is the first ID shown. For triggering the Express, the Transmit ID is not important, but the Receive is. Also, do you have cables hooked up both ways? You have the Expresses OUT hooked up to the Mac's IN which lets you see the codes from the Express, but do you have one going the other way?

Forgive me if I'm belaboring the obvious. It's hard to diagnose this long distance and without an Express in front of me.

I opened an archived show I know works with MSC commands to trigger an Ion and saw similar things happen in MIDI Monitor so the idea is right. Just not sure why it's not working for you. If we figure it out, I need to add a full set of instructions to the MIDI primer in the Wiki.

Mike Post
(601) 307-8657
mdp...@mac.com
http://mdpostdesign.com

[Penelope Poppers]

Mike,

Thanks for your help! I've tried all combinations of the Q number, Q list and Q path (unfortunately) and my Express is receiving on device 1. I'm beginning to wonder if either the receive chip is bad in my board (this board has never seen MIDI or a MIDI cable before now, so I have my doubts) or the USB to MIDI interface is only working in one direction. The USB MIDI interface is some generic cheap thing, so I have a better one on the way to me. I'm going to put this project on hold until that new one comes and see if that's the issue.

Thanks so much!

[Mike P]

>
> Thanks for your help! I've tried all combinations of the Q number, Q list and Q path (unfortunately) and my Express is receiving on device 1. I'm beginning to wonder if either the receive chip is bad in my board (this board has never seen MIDI or a MIDI cable before now, so I have my doubts) or the USB to MIDI interface is only working in one direction. The USB MIDI interface is some generic cheap thing, so I have a better one on the way to me. I'm going to put this project on hold until that new one comes and see if that's the issue.

I have had that problem before - cheap MIDI interface flatly refused to work. Best of luck with the new one!

[Freddy Komp]

Hi Penelope,


Sorry for the late reply - yes, although I was able to make it work with the work around of writing my own SysEx Messages as described (I ended up writing an Applescript that would acquire an LX Number from a dialogue box and generate the appropriate SysEx message) -

The ultimate fix (that allowed me to use normal MSC cues again) was to use the MIDI ports of a good quality device (i.e. Edirol UA25, MOTU Ultralite mk3...) instead of the cheap(er) MAudio Uno: http://www.pcmusicsupply.com/images/interfaces/usbmidi/usbuno/uno_big.jpg ...

The odd thing was, that the same MAudio Uno was working fine with an ETC Express 48/96, and then did not work for the ETC Express 24/48 (except for SysEx)...

So, bottom line - while the MIDI Monitor showed no difference between the MSC messages used... there is more between Heaven and Earth (er, Midi devices and Midi devices) than one can fathom... :)...

So, hopefully, the new MIDI device will help you...


Cheers,

Freddy

[Charlie Richmond]

On Sat, Aug 10, 2013 at 6:40 PM, Freddy Komp <busy...@gmail.com> wrote:

So, bottom line - while the MIDI Monitor showed no difference between the MSC messages used... there is more between Heaven and Earth (er, Midi devices and Midi devices) than one can fathom... :)...

So, hopefully, the new MIDI device will help you...

Sometimes you can just add a MIDI Solutions Power adapter between the cheap interface and the receiving device.

See http://www.richmondsounddesign.com/faq.html#midilen

Good luck!

Charlie

 

Cheers,

Freddy



On Saturday, August 10, 2013 1:28:52 PM UTC+10, Mike Post wrote:

>
> Thanks for your help! I've tried all combinations of the Q number, Q list and Q path (unfortunately) and my Express is receiving on device 1. I'm beginning to wonder if either the receive chip is bad in my board (this board has never seen MIDI or a MIDI cable before now, so I have my doubts) or the USB to MIDI interface is only working in one direction. The USB MIDI interface is some generic cheap thing, so I have a better one on the way to me. I'm going to put this project on hold until that new one comes and see if that's the issue.

I have had that problem before - cheap MIDI interface flatly refused to work.  Best of luck with the new one!

Mike Post
(601) 307-8657
mdp...@mac.com
http://mdpostdesign.com

[Penelope Poppers]

Well after spending many frustraing hours working on this issue, my new USB to MIDI interface came and it's working great now! This is what I get for trying to be cheap and buying the generic $3 interface from Amazon.Thanks everyone for your help!

[Mike P]

Oh good - glad you got it working!

Mike Post
(601) 307-8657
mdp...@mac.com
http://mdpostdesign.com

On Aug 13, 2013, at 5:46 PM, Penelope Poppers <penelop...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Well after spending many frustraing hours working on this issue, my new USB to MIDI interface came and it's working great now! This is what I get for trying to be cheap and buying the generic $3 interface from Amazon.Thanks everyone for your help!
>