Dante-question

[Maik Waschfeld]

Hi List,

I've got a question on the Dante-network.

We'd like to test this setup:

the main-MacPro sends on Ch.-No. 01-16 via the Virtual Soundcard.

The backup-iMac sends on Ch.-No. 17-32 via the Virtual Soundcard.

The DM1000 (as a sub-mixer) receives either Ch.-No. 01-16 or Ch.-No. 17-32 via a Dante-Card in one of it's slots and processes them to Ch. 33-48 as outputs to the Dante-network on the same card.

The DM2000 (as the master) receives the DM1000's outputs on Ch.-No. 33-48.

Will this be possible?

Regards...

...Maik

(PGP-key on request)

Emails to the iPhone: <mailto:Maik.Wa...@vodafone.de>

iPhone: +49-172-714 50 36

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...the manual said: Win XP/Vista/7/8 or better, so I used Mac OS X.

[mackerr]

Unless you have 2 Dante cards in the DM1000 you will have to have two shows set up in Dante Controller or manually repatch to change between the channels going into the single 16ch MY card. The Dante ports on CL5 series consoles are all 64x64 because that is the limit of the Brooklyn 2 chipset. The MY card version is limited to the 16 channels of the MY slot. The DM1000 patch screen can only patch among its 16 slot channels.

Mac

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 6:59:14 AM UTC-8, Maik.Wa...@maik-waschfeld.de wrote:

Hi List,

I've got a question on the Dante-network.

We'd like to test this setup:

the main-MacPro sends on Ch.-No. 01-16 via the Virtual Soundcard.

The backup-iMac sends on Ch.-No. 17-32 via the Virtual Soundcard.

The DM1000 (as a sub-mixer) receives either Ch.-No. 01-16 or Ch.-No. 17-32 via a Dante-Card in one of it's slots and processes them to Ch. 33-48 as outputs to the Dante-network on the same card.

The DM2000 (as the master) receives the DM1000's outputs on Ch.-No. 33-48.

Will this be possible?

Regards...

...Maik

(PGP-key on request)

Emails to the iPhone: <mailto:Mai...@vodafone.de>

[Rabyn]

Is there a plan to alliw for GPIO type hardware control of the DANTE and AVB protocols? For example if I wanted to provide an hard A/B switch to select between two different DANTE configurations how could this be done easily? contact closure to midi? Do these protocols transmit and receive midi?

ra byn (robin)

[Andy Leviss]

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Rabyn wrote:

Is there a plan to alliw for GPIO type hardware control of the DANTE and AVB protocols?

Can't speak as to AVB, the possibility is there for other data in extra channels of the Dante stream, but nobody's implemented it yet. 

 

For example if I wanted to provide an hard A/B switch to select between two different DANTE configurations how could this be done easily? contact closure to midi? Do these protocols transmit and receive midi?

Short answer, see further below, but without additional hardware, the answers are: you can't, no, and no (see above).

It's been mentioned to Audinate that it would be desirable to have a way to automate recalling presets in Controller, and they expressed interest in that, but wouldn't promise when. It's been a few years now, so…

Otherwise, it's down to somebody else creating software or hardware that licenses their API and does what we need. There's no simple dedicated box to do it currently. 

I have not yet tested it, but Lectrosonics makes a Dante version of the Aspen, 32x32. It can store routing presets, and has GPI triggers. It's a sledgehammer for this particular fly, with all the DSP, but it's the only box I know of that (in theory) could easily do what we need. 

-Andy

[raymond soly]

As far as AVB is concerned the Midi Manufacturers Association has published this :http://www.midi.org/techspecs/avbtp.php which implies that midi will eventually be part of the AVB stream….

And, from Audinate's site : Audinate has developed networked solutions which allow digital audio and video to be transported using standard data networking protocols, such as Ethernet and TCP/IP, but without compromising performance or introducing unacceptable delay.Applications include professional recording studios, PA and live playback equipment as used in performance venues, installed AV systems for home entertainment equipment, and musical instruments. The technology allows the same network to carry multiple high-quality audio channels with sample.accurate timing, Musical Instrument Data Interface (MIDI), and control data.

As Andy said it would seem the technology is here but the implementation is still some time away.

Ray

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[Craig k]

If you have 2 my-Dante cards, (and open slots for them in the DM2K) I would take the DM1K out of the equation and feed both QLab systems into their own cards in the DM2K, and set up an input patch library for main, and another one for back up. Setup a user defined key to switch to backup (and that could even be triggered by MIDI or GPIO for a remote A/B switch)

Craig K

On Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:59:14 AM UTC-5, Maik.Wa...@maik-waschfeld.de wrote:

Hi List,

I've got a question on the Dante-network.

We'd like to test this setup:

the main-MacPro sends on Ch.-No. 01-16 via the Virtual Soundcard.

The backup-iMac sends on Ch.-No. 17-32 via the Virtual Soundcard.

The DM1000 (as a sub-mixer) receives either Ch.-No. 01-16 or Ch.-No. 17-32 via a Dante-Card in one of it's slots and processes them to Ch. 33-48 as outputs to the Dante-network on the same card.

The DM2000 (as the master) receives the DM1000's outputs on Ch.-No. 33-48.

Will this be possible?

Regards...

...Maik

(PGP-key on request)

Emails to the iPhone: <mailto:Mai...@vodafone.de>

[mackerr]

This would be my suggestion as well. Even if there is a solution to select different set ups in Dante Controller, it may not be instantaneous as the system may have to resync itself. Mske the switch at the console level.

Mac

[Waschfeld, Maik]

Hi Mac,

 

> Unless you have 2 Dante cards in the DM1000 you will have to have two shows set up in Dante Controller or manually repatch to change between the channels going into the single 16ch MY card.

 

Due to the fact, that we have to get some other signals  from some Rocknet-devices to the faders, there’ll only be one Dante-card per desk.

So the Dante Controller will just have to switch Presets? (or how are they called in Dante-world?)

That would be great!

 

Regards...
...Maik Waschfeld

 

[Waschfeld, Maik]

Hi Craig,

 

As there are 23 wireless-mics from actors and a choir on the DM2k, plus some reverb and other fx-material, there’s not much room for both QLab-rigs.

So we decided to have an extra desk with some physical faders for the second  sound-guy.

 

Regards...
...Maik Waschfeld

 

 

[Andy Leviss]

On Saturday, March 2, 2013 at 10:06 AM, Waschfeld, Maik wrote:

Due to the fact, that we have to get some other signals  from some Rocknet-devices to the faders, there’ll only be one Dante-card per desk.

So the Dante Controller will just have to switch Presets? (or how are they called in Dante-world?)

That would be great!

As I said the other day, it is impossi le to do this currently in any sort of quick or automated fashion. You need some device capable of receiving both QLab systems, be it a sub-mixer/sidecar, a DME, or the Lectrosonics Aspen unit. That device gets both systems, the main console receives it's output, and that routing device switches which system is sending to the console. 

-Andy

[raymond soly]

While I don't own any yamaha products, from what I read, the MY-16 is "redundancy" capable and on both Dante controller and virtual soundcard version v.3.2.9, redundancy on the secondary link has been enabled…..anyone tried this connecting one Qlab session computer to the primary link and another to the secondary link end enabling redundancy in the DVS? this should do what the op needs with only one M-Y 16 card…..

Ray

[Craig k]

As long as you have the cards slots available, my suggestion does not take any more channels than the original 16 you spec'd. Create an input patch library for "main" outputs from QLab and assign the main 16 to the desk channels you want, and the "back up" lines don't get patched anywhere. Then make a second input patch library with the "main" QLab outputs not patched, and the "backup" QLab outputs patched into the channels that the main QLab lines were. Then you have a total of 16 QLab channels on the desk, and all you routing and levels stay constant between main and backup. Program a user defined key to toggle between the 2 input patch libraries and you're done

BTW, the dm2000 maxes out at 96 channels if I recall

Craig

[raymond soly]

poster has already intimated that only one Dante card was available………

Ray

Maik Waschfeld wrote:

Due to the fact, that we have to get some other signals  from some Rocknet-devices to the faders, there’ll only be one Dante-card per desk.

So the Dante Controller will just have to switch Presets? (or how are they called in Dante-world?)

That would be great!

 

Regards… 

...Maik Waschfeld

[Andy Leviss]

On Sun, Mar 3, 2013 at 11:27 AM, raymond soly <ray...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> While I don't own any yamaha products, from what I read, the MY-16 is
> "redundancy" capable and on both Dante controller and virtual soundcard
> version v.3.2.9, redundancy on the secondary link has been enabled…..anyone
> tried this connecting one Qlab session computer to the primary link and
> another to the secondary link end enabling redundancy in the DVS? this
> should do what the op needs with only one M-Y 16 card…..

No, it won't. That's redundancy for the network link from a single
device/set of devices, and only works on devices where both ends have
redundant ports, which VSC doesn't support. It's a network-level
redundancy, not a device-level redundancy. Each port needs to be from
the same originating source(s), but on a separate and redundant
network link. You have no control over when or how it fails over, and
it will not work for a redundant QLab setup. It's not intended to
provide device redundancy, it's for network redundancy.

What was added in later updates was the ability, if running a
non-redundant (again, on the NETWORK LINK layer) setup, to use the
secondary port as a switch and allow daisy-chaining of (non-redundant)
devices without an additional switch. In other words, if you need
multiple cards in your console, and don't need/have/want a redundant
network link, you can daisy chain one card to the next and only need
one connection from your network to the console.

Trust me, I support these rigs full time for a living, if there was
any more economical way to do it reliably without the need for an
extra card or extra device, I'd be the first in line. I assure you,
there is currently no solution on the market that provides for
redundancy of Virtual Sound Card sources between two separate playback
computers without requiring the full number of combined inputs
somewhere in the system. It simply does not exist in the current
market of devices.

With MADI, ADAT, or analog signals, you can switch relatively easily,
since all those protocols are non-negotiated links that simply spit
out data blindly on one end, and receive it blindly on the other, and
deal well with being switched, hot plugged, etc.You can passively
switch all of these, and to varying degrees (depending on exactly how
you switch them) they'll be perfectly happy.

Dante, AVB, and other ethernet-based transports require some degree of
negotiation between devices to establish routing, so become much more
complex to switch. You can't just physically switch the connection,
it'll take time for all devices involved to see each other and
re-route audio.

If you have a device that can do the active routing, keeping all
devices online and doing the routing in the digital realm, it's no
problem, and you can get instant, super-clean switchover. But you need
a device that is constantly connected to all other devices to serve as
the router/matrix.

-Andy

[raymond soly]

Thanks for the info and expertise Andy, like I said I don't own any dante product (yamaha or otherwise) and actually went the MADI way myself…..

It is however good to know we are talking about network redundancy and not device redundancy as some discussions elsewhere led me to believe…..

I therefore stand corrected….

Ray

[raymond soly]

I was going to send this question to Andy Leviss since he deals with this on a regular basis but perhaps others have experience with this too.

I have been using a MADI system comprised of 2 digico UB madi cards (for the 2 Qlab computers) and an A&H ILive console with madi option card set to redundant mode …….

This system works perfectly without any issues switching seamlessly between the 2 madi links (master Qlab or slave) except, in one specific case where I have to use a manual switching scheme, that is when/if Qlab crashes (mind you this has not happened and I could not get it to crash in my tests,) which is great (thanks guys).
The solution to switch madi "streams" is simple though, just disconnecting the usb from the defective system will fix that or assigning a scene memory that switches the madi card's mode to a different madi patch also works or just closing the computer's lid (sleep) also does the same thing (just don't re-open until you have unplugged the BNC coaxial cable from the madi card's primary link or the usb connection to the digico box! otherwise the system will revert to the now silent primary link) …..in all other instances (if the primary computer fails or crashes or bogs down or loses usb or your coax gets crushed etc.etc.. ) it all switches instantly and seamlessly.

So, if the application fails but the computer is otherwise unaffected then the madi link is still "streaming" or active…...

What is sent on the madi signal that keeps that particular link active?

Thx

Ray

On 2013-03-03, at 4:04 PM, Andy Leviss <an...@ducksecho.com> wrote:
>
>
> With MADI, ADAT, or analog signals, you can switch relatively easily,
> since all those protocols are non-negotiated links that simply spit
> out data blindly on one end, and receive it blindly on the other, and
> deal well with being switched, hot plugged, etc.You can passively
> switch all of these, and to varying degrees (depending on exactly how
> you switch them) they'll be perfectly happy.
>
>
>

[Andy Leviss]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:57 AM, raymond soly <ray...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> So, if the application fails but the computer is otherwise unaffected then the madi link is still "streaming" or active…...
>
> What is sent on the madi signal that keeps that particular link active?

Full MADI signal :-)

Well, it's sending clock data, and data at digital 0. The application
isn't talking directly to the device, it's talking to Core Audio, the
OS's audio handler, which talks to the driver/device. So the OS is
still totally cool with the device, it's just that no specific
application is sending data to it. But the device is still online,
ready for action as soon as any application has audio to send to it.

That's part of the reason I'm a big advocate of not using
auto-switching. I'm of the pretty firm opinion that redundant system
switching should always be controlled by a human deciding when and why
to switch over to the backup.

Also, stay tuned in a couple weeks. Rumor has it that a certain small
playback system/controller company might have some new redundant
system switching systems coming out at USITT ;-) Let's just say a
little aquatic birdy told you...

-Andy

[raymond soly]

Brief revisit of this post…...

while the redundancy feature of the Yamaha card provides a redundant network (as opposed to a redundant device, (point taken Andy)), it is however possible to disable this feature (on the yamaha card) and use the card as a network switch (where primary and secondary links are available as 2 ports on the same network) and, if using 2 Qlab computers, manually select (through a scene memory from the yamaha console or other)  which inputs are active on the card (irrespective of the port they are patched to) at any given time allowing (i.e.8 inputs from each computer or)  any combination up to a total of 16 in all on just the one Yamaha MY-16 aud card…….on the Ilive this would accommodate a lot more channels…..

Ray

from audinate

Hi Ray,

You could set up two computers on the same Dante network, and route their signals to the iLive system into different inputs, and use a scene change to switch between the inputs being used.  

The Dante-MY16-AUD cards support redundancy mode.  But they can be configured to behave like a switch as well, allowing two computers to connect directly to the Yamaha equipment.

Best regards,

-Landon

Landon Gentry

Manager of Global Support Services

T: +1.503.224.2998 x203

M: +1.503.427.8132

F: +1.503.360.1155

landon...@audinate.com

[Andy Leviss]

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 6:29 PM, raymond soly <ray...@sympatico.ca> wrote:
> while the redundancy feature of the Yamaha card provides a redundant network
> (as opposed to a redundant device, (point taken Andy)), it is however
> possible to disable this feature (on the yamaha card) and use the card as a
> network switch (where primary and secondary links are available as 2 ports
> on the same network)

Most certainly, or you can just use an outboard switch. If it's a
dedicated Dante network with no other data on it, you can use an
unmanaged switch, which is in the $65 range for, say, a Netgear GS108.
You only need to up to a switch with QoS support if you are having
lots of other data on the network.

> if using 2 Qlab computers, manually select
> (through a scene memory from the yamaha console or other) which inputs are
> active on the card (irrespective of the port they are patched to) at any
> given time allowing (i.e.8 inputs from each computer or) any combination up
> to a total of 16 in all on just the one Yamaha MY-16 aud card…….on the Ilive
> this would accommodate a lot more channels…..

Definitely...the original poster wanted 16 channels from each
computer, which on a Yamaha card requires 32 inputs, or two cards, if
you're doing the switching in the console, or an outboard routing
method. That's the problem with Dante, it requires either active
routing or twice as many console inputs to allow instaneous one-button
switching to the backup.

Other digital methods, and analog, can be switched passively, so the
options for switching two sets of outputs to one set of console inputs
have a wider selection, and (with some options) lower cost. Again, at
USITT in a week and a half I'll have some exciting news as far as
lower cost switching options go, so stay tuned!

-Andy