[QLab] run the same cue arbitrary times
Michele Cremaschi
An actor will walk to the center of the stage. Every step he does, a
sound should be played. I can set an audio cue the technician must run
every step the actor does. The problem is: how to set the playback
position back to the start of the cue, and how to set it to the
following cue, given that's not possible to know how many steps will
be done
thanks for your suggestion
michele
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Christopher Ashworth
If the sounds might need to overlap, you can just create a separate cue list of many copies of the step sound, and assign the hotkey to that cue list. Then each time the operator presses that key it will fire off another step sound in that cue list.
Best,
Chris
On Aug 30, 2010, at 3:45 PM, Michele Cremaschi wrote:
> An actor will walk to the center of the stage. Every step he does, a
> sound should be played. I can set an audio cue the technician must run
> every step the actor does. The problem is: how to set the playback
> position back to the start of the cue, and how to set it to the
> following cue, given that's not possible to know how many steps will
> be done
________________________________________________________
*
Every time you let off & hit it again, it starts over again but using the
same cue over & over again.
The issue I have with the method described below is there is no easy way
to shut the current cue off as the next one is starting (I know it's
possible to program this but...)
If some day there is a sampler cue, I would suggest that it allow for a
momentary option instead of the current play to end default. As long as
you hold down the hotkey, it plays but it stops if you let off of the
hotkey.
This would also be true if you were triggering from an external midi source.
Again, just as a hardware sampler would if you haven't set up any ADSR
parameters. In fact, how about ADSR handles for the sampler cue?
While we're discussing this, also allow for the option to play the same
affect at different pitches (like a sampler).
C3 = original pitch
D3 = whole step higher
B3 = half step lower
etc...
I think this would be a welcome addition to Qlab.
Last year, I had to chase action around the stage for "Nutty Nutcracker -
the ballet" & while I was able to pull it off, it took a lot of work
arounds & I barely pulled it off. I had a sheet covered in hotkey starts &
then stops for all of those. The momentary/reuse option would of been a
life saver alone. Probably be doing it again in a few months.
*
Steve Lalonde
Dominic Bilkey
Jeremy Lee
+1
Christopher Ashworth
http://tracker.figure53.com/qlab/ticket/44
I should note this reasoning is about letting the cue overlap itself when played multiple times. This is distinct from a feature that would allow a cue to be aborted and restarted from the top each time it's fired, but that seems less useful....
On Sep 2, 2010, at 11:05 AM, Jeremy Lee wrote:
> I don't understand- why don't you just use either an outboard sampler, or something like Kontakt or Mainstage? It supplies virtual MIDI ports if needed, and you can route the sound wherever you like while QLab is doing its thing.
>
> This is something that other developers already do very well, and it can run concurrently with QLab. I see no need for the r&d needed to reinvent the wheel here.
________________________________________________________
*
A quote from the Qlab website:
"QLab is the award-winning software that makes it simple to create rich
multimedia designs for live performances and installations."
Interestingly, I believe you're one of the people who suggested that I
should just use a CD player instead of Qlab last time I made a suggestion
for something that would absolutely support the statement above.
Almost at the same time you yourself wanted a midi player / sequencer cue
or something like that. Fine. I'll use it to some day.
Given your current post, I'm wondering why you don't just use an external
midi sequencer or whatever other tool can already do the job you want Qlab
to do. What makes you so confident in shooting down other suggestions
while making your own?
Especially when my most recent suggestion isn't ridiculous or self
centered. It's been brought up before & not by me. What I have done is
provide a model of what does the job better than 20 lines of code & a
bunch of work arounds. Again in support of the statement made by Figure 53
above.
Note the immediate +1 & +2 replies. I'm sure others could & would benefit
from a sampler type cue & a gate cue as well as a midi sequence cue (if
that's what you wanted).
To be clear, I love Qlab as is but I know that Qlab didn't get to be Qlab
by not doing things other things do.
Qlab became Qlab by looking at other existing things & doing them better
or at least differently.
Ok. Some will blow the "feature creep" whistle & rightly so. I don't want
Qlab broken by anything I suggest any more than anything anyone else
suggested. If so, DON'T CHANGE IT!!!
Within the confines of what the Figure 53 team choose to pursue (to the
success or demise of Qlab), I think it's completely appropriate for it to
have a midi sequence cue, gate cue, sampler type cue & anything else that
"...makes it simple to create rich multimedia designs for live
performances and installations"
Lastly, I don't own a sampler program & to be honest, every time I open
one more app along with Qlab, I risk a crash, instability, missed cue,
etc...
So to me the biggest reason Qlab would be better off some day by having a
sampler cue is because it's all in one box & in my mind that is as good as
it gets.
I'd also like a DMX cue but will save that suggestion for when someone
else makes it:)
*
On Thu, September 2, 2010 10:05 am, Jeremy Lee wrote:
> I don't understand- why don't you just use either an outboard sampler, or
> something like Kontakt or Mainstage? It supplies virtual MIDI ports if
> needed, and you can route the sound wherever you like while QLab is doing
> its thing.
>
> This is something that other developers already do very well, and it can
> run concurrently with QLab. I see no need for the r&d needed to reinvent
> the wheel here.
>
> On Aug 31, 2010, at 2:40 AM, Steve Lalonde wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>>
>> ----
>> 450 541 7482
>> www.stevelalonde.com
>>
>>
>> 2010/8/30 * <ra...@rabyn.com>
>> May I suggest a "sampler cue".
*
cues makes perfect sense. In the case where you want to restart it over &
over again, a sampler cue is very useful & maybe much more simple to
implement.
But what I'm suggesting at it's most basic level is simple.
Provide the following trigger option.
HOT KEY / MIDI TRIGGER OPTION
Maintained = plays out completely
Momentary = starts upon press but stops as soon as the hot key / midi
trigger is released.
That's it. Doesn't even need to be a new cue type.
This means that if I need to fire a machine gun from the time the actor
does the trigger action until the actor does the stop action, I'm only
holding down the M key until I want to stop the sound.
What I had to do (without knowing more) is to make the M key start the cue
& the N key stop the same cue.
This over a 2 hour show worth of random action chasing on stage doubles
the triggers & is really hard to keep up with.
I needed 2 pages of hot key notes to do my last Nutty Nutcracker.
I also had the entire shows worth of music cues to trigger correctly as well.
I spent hours trying to figure out what cues could be inserted where in
the music & just be autos & programmed & what cues had to be on separate
triggers.
All of this just becomes "press M" for as long as you want or as little as
you want with a momentary trigger option.
Taking this thought one step further.
Provide for a trigger for the press & a different sound for the release.
Press = lawn mower starts & runs
Release = lawn mower dies
Two cues but one trigger
If this is just plain impossible, fine. If I'm only one of 3 people on
this entire list that can take advantage of something like this, by all
means let's not. In that case, the three of us SHOULD get (hardware /
software) samplers & move on. But I find this hard to believe...
*
On Thu, September 2, 2010 12:30 pm, Christopher Ashworth wrote:
> I should note this reasoning is about letting the cue overlap itself when
> played multiple times. This is distinct from a feature that would allow a
> cue to be aborted and restarted from the top each time it's fired, but
> that seems less useful....
Andy Leviss
> HOT KEY / MIDI TRIGGER OPTION
> Maintained = plays out completely
> Momentary = starts upon press but stops as soon as the hot key / midi
> trigger is released.
This functionality is already possible. Any standard-compliant MIDI
controller sends a Note On on press and a Note Off (or Note On at 0)
on release. Use the Note On (127) for the start cue, and the Note
Off/0 to trigger a stop cue, and you're all set.
--Andy
----------------------
Duck's Echo Sound
Your premier source for custom MIDI controllers and turnkey QLab systems
http://DucksEchoSound.com
Christopher Ashworth
For the record, don't take my previous email as intending to discourage your suggestion. I definitely hear where you're coming from. Maybe there is a clean way to add some of the things you're describing more directly / with fewer steps than the current methods.
As always, reading the feedback of everyone on the list is critical for me to hear, so thanks to you (and everyone).
-C
Steve Lalonde
raymond soly
If I may add...Almost every sound design for theatre I did was very small budget and operated by someone who know very little about sound and sometimes, computer. So I have to make things very simple and user friendly. Opening more than one software or just switching a window to start a cue is sometime impossible and sometime a big amount of stress on a guy who's already doing a thousand things at the same time.Discovering QLab changed my life and brought my sound design a thousand steps higher and every ideas like this sampler cue open thousand of possibilities (or saves me hours of programming). I now can rig the go to a button of the light board and only teach how to open a computer and double-click on the icon on the desktop. Stability, simplicity and infinite possibilites.S
*
this thread in the first place.
Not everyone has a midi controller, nor the space for one, nor the
knowledge to connect it all & use it.
Andy, no doubt you know what you're talking about but I had this
conversation back when I needed to do such things & I believe that Chris
supported that there is no way to press a hot key & then to have anything
happen on the release.
I'm not even sure it can be done with midi & QLab at the moment without
some sort of script or work around. I know that the midi standard is ready
to play ball but is Qlab ready to pitch (meaning to allow for the same
trigger to do two different things dependent on the velocity)?
*
On Thu, September 2, 2010 12:59 pm, Andy Leviss wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM, * <ra...@rabyn.com> wrote:
>> HOT KEY / MIDI TRIGGER OPTION
>> Maintained = plays out completely
>> Momentary = starts upon press but stops as soon as the hot key / midi
>> trigger is released.
>
> This functionality is already possible. Any standard-compliant MIDI
> controller sends a Note On on press and a Note Off (or Note On at 0)
> on release. Use the Note On (127) for the start cue, and the Note
> Off/0 to trigger a stop cue, and you're all set
________________________________________________________
Jason Knox
Andy Leviss
> I'm not even sure it can be done with midi & QLab at the moment without
> some sort of script or work around. I know that the midi standard is ready
> to play ball but is Qlab ready to pitch (meaning to allow for the same
> trigger to do two different things dependent on the velocity)?
To do it from a keyboard, yeah, there are workarounds involved, but one could also argue that using a keyboard designed for typing is already a compromise, so that's arguably hypocritical :-)
Anyway, to do it from a typing keyboard, you'd have to:
A)Use something like v.m.k., which is a third-party program that lets you use your keyboard as a MIDI controller. Keep that on top, and use that to send MIDI to QLab.
B)Use Max/MSP or Pd or whatever else to create an onscreen button panel that sends MIDI, and do the press and release with your mouse, or mapping keypresses there. Or to otherwise create the equivalent of choice A.
C)Compromise and rather than using a press/release cycle, use alternating taps. Make a looping cue list with a start and stop cue targeting your audio cue, and make the key trigger that list rather than a specific cue. The first press will start, the second will stop, the third will start it again, etc.
Andy Leviss
This doesn't resolve how to do this with hotkeys which is what started
this thread in the first place.
Not everyone has a midi controller, nor the space for one, nor the
knowledge to connect it all & use it.
Rich Walsh
> Any trigger, both workspace-wide and cue-specific, supports the full MIDI data set. For the default of Note On, you can specify for any trigger a note number and a velocity, 0-127, or "any" to ignore velocity and go on any Note On for that note number.
Watch out for the trap here though: Note On @ 0 is considered as a Note Off, so most cheap velocity-sensitive MIDI controllers (ie: keyboards) will double GO if you use the "any" setting - once as you push down, and once again as you release (and they send a Note On @ 0, rather than a "proper" Note Off). So, you need a MIDI controller that can be made to generate a fixed velocity - or one that sends Note Offs, not Note Ons @ 0 - or else sends nothing at all on release.
Just in case any one didn't already know about that one...
In 8 years of using SFX I found enough uses for "on release" hot keys that I do miss them occasionally. You can't really beat an emergency backup for a mobile phone cue onstage that only rings while you hold the button down; a separate MIDI controller when you must needs have a QWERTY keyboard to hand would be overkill for a backup.
Rich
raymond soly
and then there was/is the "Griffin Powermate" with scriptability!!! http://www.macnn.com/articles/10/07/05/update.brings.60.triggering.actions.scriptability/
only for mac 10.6 though.........
Ray
*
For Nutty Nutcracker (my only real life experience doing what I describe
with Qlab) I had more hot keys than I had letters after skipping over the
ones that are used by Qlab as a default.
Of course my first thought at the time was....damn I wish I had a second
midi port x 2 & a midi keyboard so I could just put stickers on all the
keys.
What I ended up doing is re editing some of the cues outside of Qlab to
save triggers & combine & hope that others would work within the main cue
list by inserting at the right points in the music cues.
What was left over I had to sacrifice (2) hot key triggers per gag.
Maybe Qlab was capable of press ON / release OFF via the instructions /
screenshot Andy has provided but I'm pretty sure that this wasn't & still
isn't possible via hot keys. I did ask the list.
Maybe even more relevant is that in my case, hot keys meant that I had to
run non redundantly & so I just used one machine & had the other one there
just in case but not tracking via midi. A midi keyboard & extra midi ports
would of solved this but I didn't have the kit at the time nor did I know
that I needed it until it was too late.
I wasn't give the final list of sound needs / expectations & function for
Nutty until right before the final rehearsal (because Artistic & dancers
were still trying to add funny parts) & so I wouldn't of had time to re
configure anyway.
For a machine gun cue that is over music, press = ON , release = OFF is
fine. I don't need the tail of the reverb or anything. Plus we're in an
opera house & the room covers up all sorts of bad cuts & endings.
For the chain saw start up & shut down, I need two cues. One that has the
start up & the rev & then one that has the shut down. In this case, I
would need the ability to, press = start up, release = shut down.
Hence the M & N approach per gag.
Did I make the gig work? Sure. But I had to do a lot to make it work &
here is a fact that I think drives my suggestion:
I was actually testing things (because I hadn't heard them work as desired
yet) right up until the show started. Literally holding the curtain until
I checked my last cue. Why? Because I had to conceive, program & then
test, fix issue, change time, re conceive, test x 25+ extra cues for that
one show. Not normal to the gig but still my job.
Putting 50 songs in order & triggering them at right time is a no brainer
(as long as the operator is paying attention). Doing improvisational sound
design is hard even with Qlab.
This year & thanks to Andy's post, I'll be dragging a keyboard along &
updating my rigs to have more than 1 midi in / out port. Since my goal is
be redundant with auto switching, I have a solution via the midi velocity
setting I wasn't aware of & that may not have existed last Xmas. I bet you
know Andy:)
But for those who don't have a midi interface, don't have a midi keyboard
& still need to stop & start something out of order & without using two
cues per gag, a press = on , release = off seems like a valuable & time
saving tool.
So to be clear, I'm not advocating for this because I'm waiting for it
myself (I'll be forced to go the midi route) but because others who might
not even know yet what this all means will have some cue (like Rich
mentions with the cell phone gag) that needs an appropriate tool.
Again, I'm not complaining. I started with Reel to Reel so I have no legs
to stand on here. I love Qlab & the fact is, the existing scripting
options & paypal donations to Rich Walsh are my future:)
I appreciate all of your replies & input.
*
On Thu, September 2, 2010 5:16 pm, Jason Knox wrote:
> *,
> I liked your solution to have the M key play a long machine gun cue and the
> N key stop that cue.
> In fact I think that you probably want to have two separate cues for
that
> sort of thing anyway, since simply stopping the machine gun sound (ala a
simple "key on" / "key off" sampler mechanism) would probably cut off
the
> sound too abruptly and sound fake. Ideally the N key triggered a
machine
> gun "button" cue that was just the sound of the gunfire stopping and
decaying naturally (along with a Stop cue or quick fade out of the M
key's
> gunfire sound).
> If I'm understanding things correctly, I think you already hit upon the
best
> solution.
*
Good stuff!!!
In my case I haven't had a midi controller that allows for changing the
messages. They are fixed. It's one reason why I'm moving away from the
JLCooper MCS-2 Midi. It's fine but limiting when I've got (4) Midi
Solutions F8s sitting here on my bench:)
I didn't presume you were wrong. I just didn't know you were right.
Out of curiosity, what have you used the velocity function on the midi
trigger tab for? Or is it just that you've looked at all the tabs & boxes
in Qlab & I haven't:)
*
*
> Where in this thread does it say that hotkeys were required?
Unless I'm mistaken, Chris himself suggested hot keys & a second cue list.
Not that a "midi solution" was automatically ruled out but only that it
wasn't assumed. An on board solution is always more attractive to me
because I don't always have the time or budget to use external solutions.
> The thread
> was
> started with somebody describing an effect they wished to accomplish, no
mention of how it was being triggered was made. You mentioned hotkeys,
but
> that wasn't the initial question, and you didn't say that was a
> requirement,
> I was just
> saying that, if you've got the right toolset, much of what's being asked
for
> is easily possible.
I appreciate everyone's input even if it doesn't help everyone.
I hope I didn't come across as discounting your post Andy. Instead I was
just trying to clarify my thoughts.
Thanks to Jeremy's post, I know which sampler software to look at if I end
up needing to. That's absolutely valuable. But I have my reasons for
continuing the conversation past that point. No doubt I could of been a
little less ranty.
> This might sound ironically similar to the rant you went on this afternoon,
> *, but just because a suggestion doesn't solve *your* problem doesn't
mean
> it won't solve somebody else's, y'know?
I value everyone's perspective. From the high end users to the middle &
high school kids I tell about Qlab all the time.
FYI - Most of my problems HAVE been solved by you & Jeremy & Rich & Figure
53 staff & others so I'm in no position to be burning bridges even if I
carelessly have.
> (Tangent, I distinctly thought of you when I described this, because you've
> mentioned many times about some MIDI controller you were using to
control
> QLab, although I'm blanking on what it was. So I suggested that
> specifically
> for you, because you'd specifically mentioned having such a controller
in
> the past. Excuse me for trying to help.)
I very much appreciate your input, talents & attention to detail Andy.
It's why I bother you offlist so much:)
As you are probably aware, the JLCooper MCS-2 Midi) doesn't allow for any
adjustment. The midi messages are fixed & so using midi velocity levels
wouldn't of been possible. More importantly, I needed more triggers than
the MCS2 provides x 4 +.
You have provided the solution for my case.
A midi keyboard can do what I want to do right now. But I would of needed
more 2 hours to reprogram & test that night that I didn't have. This is
where having an on board solution is valuable. Time saving.
> Whether it's an outboard controller (and yes, of course, I do make very
compact and very durable ones, but while I think mine are the best,
they're
> certainly not the only ones), a UD key on a Yamaha console, a MIDI
Solutions
> FC, a $50 mini USB keyboard or button board, there are lots of solutions
for
> lots of budget ranges. Those Korg Nano controllers can easily fit on top of
> a keyboard or a console, and they're $50.
Again, I appreciate your ability to provide exact solutions Andy.
I work with "non profit" theaters & schools where $50 is a deal breaker.
This isn't a reflection of the usefulness of your suggestions but again,
to me, on board solutions are more valuable than external solutions
because they are inherent.
*
Andy Leviss
This year & thanks to Andy's post, I'll be dragging a keyboard along &
updating my rigs to have more than 1 midi in / out port. Since my goal is
be redundant with auto switching, I have a solution via the midi velocity
setting I wasn't aware of & that may not have existed last Xmas. I bet you
know Andy:)
Andy Leviss
Out of curiosity, what have you used the velocity function on the midi
trigger tab for? Or is it just that you've looked at all the tabs & boxes
in Qlab & I haven't:)
Allan Hirons
Again a work around.
Option D) Try using a software package called 'Junxion' (US$39) Operates in the background and monitors all HID devices and sends any midi message you want according to nearly any input parameter you can think of from you HID.
- Hotkey 'M' is pressed, Junxion sends Note ON (127) to Qlab - Machine gun loop start trigger
- Hotkey 'M' is released, Junxion sends Note ON (###) to Qlab - Machine gun loop stop trigger follow on Decay.
A)Use something like v.m.k., which is a third-party program that lets you
use your keyboard as a MIDI controller. Keep that on top, and use that to
send MIDI to QLab.
B)Use Max/MSP or Pd or whatever else to create an onscreen button panel that
sends MIDI, and do the press and release with your mouse, or mapping
keypresses there. Or to otherwise create the equivalent of choice A.
C)Compromise and rather than using a press/release cycle, use alternating
taps. Make a looping cue list with a start and stop cue targeting your audio
cue, and make the key trigger that list rather than a specific cue. The
first press will start, the second will stop, the third will start it again,
etc.
Cheers
Allan
-------------------------------------------------------------
Allan Hirons
Lawler Studio Technician
Melbourne Theatre Company
140 Southbank BLVD
Southbank Vic
Australia 3006
tel: +61 3 8688 0886
fax: +61 3 9696 2627
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Jeremy Lee
QLab already played MIDI notes, and a lot of other media files. A MIDI file was just a logical extension of that. Turning it into a sampler seems overkill to me. But, as always, Chris will weigh what he feels makes sense, and we'll all do our shows.
Jeremy
--
Jeremy Lee
Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829
http://www.jjlee.com
Rich Walsh
> An extra tip for you...if you've got a velocity sensitive keyboard, use a lower trigger value than 127, so you're covered without having to worry about the operator hitting the key hard enough. Release will always be 0 (save the rare case of an actual Note Off, but I don't remember ever coming across one in the wild!), so pick a safety margin above that, and you'll always be covered. Going with 127 might result in missed cues.
It doesn't work like that, sadly: you have to hit _exactly_ the velocity set, not something above it...
It would be great if "any" didn't include 0 (although, if the sound is long enough you won't get a double GO when you release as QLab won't re-trigger a running cue - oh, no, hang on...).
Another niche improvement would be if you could set the note number to "any" too: then you could have a cue that runs on any received MIDI message (of a certain type). This would have saved Gareth Fry a lot of cues the other day!
Rich
Christopher Ashworth
On Sep 3, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Rich Walsh wrote:
> On 3 Sep 2010, at 07:55, Andy Leviss wrote:
>
>> An extra tip for you...if you've got a velocity sensitive keyboard, use a lower trigger value than 127, so you're covered without having to worry about the operator hitting the key hard enough. Release will always be 0 (save the rare case of an actual Note Off, but I don't remember ever coming across one in the wild!), so pick a safety margin above that, and you'll always be covered. Going with 127 might result in missed cues.
>
> It doesn't work like that, sadly: you have to hit _exactly_ the velocity set, not something above it...
I'd like to add an ">=" option for MIDI values...
> It would be great if "any" didn't include 0
This might be an easier tweak in the meantime.... with the tricky thing that I don't know if changing this would break an existing workspace out in the wide wide world.
As QLab has become more widely used, it's become less easy for me to go in and make easy changes like that. :/
This will get addressed sooner or later, though!
> Another niche improvement would be if you could set the note number to "any" too: then you could have a cue that runs on any received MIDI message (of a certain type). This would have saved Gareth Fry a lot of cues the other day!
Good to know!
-C
Andy Leviss
>
> It doesn't work like that, sadly: you have to hit _exactly_ the velocity set, not something above it...
Of course Rich is correct. One of these days I'll stop trying to think
at 3am! *buries face in shame* :-)
> Another niche improvement would be if you could set the note number to "any" too: then you could have a cue that runs on any received MIDI message (of a certain type). This would have saved Gareth Fry a lot of cues the other day!
Perhaps to make up for the aforementioned shame, LOL, it's too late to
help Gareth, but you could bus it through a MIDI Pipe and remap the
notes.
You could also, until QLab excepts 0 from "any" (if it does), map a
Note On @ 0 to a true Note Off, and then feed that to QLab via the IAC
bus. Likewise, if velocity variation was an issue, you could map any
of a wide range of values up to 127 via the Pipe. MIDI Pipe and/or
Bome's MIDI Translator can be pretty handy tools to have in your
toolbox!
-Andy
Jeremy Lee
--
Jeremy Lee
Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829
http://www.jjlee.com
Jeremy Lee
On Sep 2, 2010, at 9:44 PM, * wrote:
> For Nutty Nutcracker (my only real life experience doing what I describe
> with Qlab) I had more hot keys than I had letters after skipping over the
> ones that are used by Qlab as a default.
--
Jeremy Lee
Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829
http://www.jjlee.com
Jeremy Lee
On Sep 3, 2010, at 1:55 AM, Andy Leviss wrote:
> Release will always be 0 (save the rare case of an actual Note Off, but I don't remember ever coming across one in the wild!), so pick a safety margin above that, and you'll always be covered.
--
Jeremy Lee
Sound Designer, NYC - USA 829
http://www.jjlee.com