Re: Shen Makes Front Page of Hacker News
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Mark Tarver
Nov 2, 2012, 9:36:19 AM11/2/12
to Qilang
Read it; a lot of prefabricated outrage from the OS people who cannot
grasp any opinion other than their own.
I would be beware of trying to interpret the license to win over the
opinions of the close-minded proponents of open source or saying that
the license is badly worded; it is quite clear. In particular
distributing a version of Shen with some flag that causes stock
programs to crash would be illegal if that flag was set on
distribution.
Good though that there are voices who have taken in the license and
understand the motivation.
Mark
On Nov 2, 2:05 am, Rafael Turner <rafael.tur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4730535
grasp any opinion other than their own.
I would be beware of trying to interpret the license to win over the
opinions of the close-minded proponents of open source or saying that
the license is badly worded; it is quite clear. In particular
distributing a version of Shen with some flag that causes stock
programs to crash would be illegal if that flag was set on
distribution.
Good though that there are voices who have taken in the license and
understand the motivation.
Mark
On Nov 2, 2:05 am, Rafael Turner <rafael.tur...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4730535
JS
Nov 2, 2012, 9:55:25 AM11/2/12
to qil...@googlegroups.com
> I would be beware of trying to interpret the license to win over the
> opinions of the close-minded proponents of open source or saying that
> the license is badly worded; it is quite clear.
I'm sorry but I have to disagree. I have read it several times and
> opinions of the close-minded proponents of open source or saying that
> the license is badly worded; it is quite clear.
read mailing list discussion of it and it's still confusing. I've read
various contracts, employment, software, real estate, etc. and I can
understand those. But I find the way the Shen license agreement is
written is difficult to read and understand.
For example, the following phrases are used and it is unclear if they
are intended to mean the same thing or different things:
"derivative work"
"code derived from this code..."
"derived versions of this software"
"derived copies of this software"
"derived software"
"the software"
I think some of the complaint on Hacker News is due to this type of ambiguity.
Mark Tarver
Nov 2, 2012, 12:36:28 PM11/2/12
to Qilang
We'll have to agree to disagree here. All the phrases using
'derivative' relate to the expression in US copyright law which is
clearly explained at the top of the page along with the other terms of
art.
This issue that the top posters have is not with the wording of the
license; they are not confused. They don't like it because it is not
open source and nothing is going to satisfy them short of that.
It's not even about freedom of commercial exploitation or being
seriously hampered; this is a religious commitment and you can pick up
the sanctimony in the posts. And these same people are to a degree
offended by the idea that any open project could be driven by ideas
other than those they are familiar with.
So to begin by apologising to them is to set the wrong tone and simply
gives them ammunition to attack. There is nothing to apologise for;
grannyg00se nailed it well and challenged their closed mind set. Time
we got out from the tyranny of freetards and called them out.
Mark
PS I also have issues with the use of the terms 'open source' and
'open' and 'free'. 'Open source' is contracted to 'open' which is
equated with 'liberal' etc. so that a lot of positive words are co-
opted from their original meaning. Stallman co-opted 'free' to cover
software under a restrictive GPL license that could be sold for money
which IMO is a misuse of language.
'derivative' relate to the expression in US copyright law which is
clearly explained at the top of the page along with the other terms of
art.
This issue that the top posters have is not with the wording of the
license; they are not confused. They don't like it because it is not
open source and nothing is going to satisfy them short of that.
It's not even about freedom of commercial exploitation or being
seriously hampered; this is a religious commitment and you can pick up
the sanctimony in the posts. And these same people are to a degree
offended by the idea that any open project could be driven by ideas
other than those they are familiar with.
So to begin by apologising to them is to set the wrong tone and simply
gives them ammunition to attack. There is nothing to apologise for;
grannyg00se nailed it well and challenged their closed mind set. Time
we got out from the tyranny of freetards and called them out.
Mark
PS I also have issues with the use of the terms 'open source' and
'open' and 'free'. 'Open source' is contracted to 'open' which is
equated with 'liberal' etc. so that a lot of positive words are co-
opted from their original meaning. Stallman co-opted 'free' to cover
software under a restrictive GPL license that could be sold for money
which IMO is a misuse of language.
Racket Noob
Nov 2, 2012, 1:07:05 PM11/2/12
to Qilang
Dr. Tarver, don't be bitter, don't be sad; they are jerks!
You've done an excellent job and it's sad that those people don't see
that.
It seems that those "freetards" aren't interested in anything in Shen,
they don't see any beauty there, they see only the damn licence! As if
they were on "Lawyer news", not on "Hacker news". F*** them all!
Racket Noob
You've done an excellent job and it's sad that those people don't see
that.
It seems that those "freetards" aren't interested in anything in Shen,
they don't see any beauty there, they see only the damn licence! As if
they were on "Lawyer news", not on "Hacker news". F*** them all!
Racket Noob
Mark Tarver
Nov 2, 2012, 2:41:04 PM11/2/12
to Qilang
I'm not bitter, I'm bloody annoyed by the misrepresentation in ' I
would advise anyone to stay far, far away from that sort of
licensing.'
Adopting an OS license does not make a person stupid. Supporting OS to
the point where problems are willfully ignored, irrespective of
context, and alternative positions misrepresented is a form of self-
inflicted stupidity. The worst aspect is that they want others to
catch their attitude.
I long since stopped arguing with these people - waste of time. But
you should not apologise to them.
Mark
would advise anyone to stay far, far away from that sort of
licensing.'
Adopting an OS license does not make a person stupid. Supporting OS to
the point where problems are willfully ignored, irrespective of
context, and alternative positions misrepresented is a form of self-
inflicted stupidity. The worst aspect is that they want others to
catch their attitude.
I long since stopped arguing with these people - waste of time. But
you should not apologise to them.
Mark
Raoul Duke
Nov 2, 2012, 2:27:27 PM11/2/12
to qil...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Marko Kocić <ma...@euptera.com> wrote:
> Don't let this list become comp.lang.lisp
or at least push all such stuff to a new list like "qilang-flamewars"
or whatever? :-)
> Don't let this list become comp.lang.lisp
or at least push all such stuff to a new list like "qilang-flamewars"
or whatever? :-)
Mark Tarver
Nov 2, 2012, 6:05:57 PM11/2/12
to Qilang
Yes, I've seen Rich get seriously annoyed with some of these people.
I must say that the 'freetards' label made me smile when I first came
across it. Even Torvalds has gone on record as wanting to distance
himself from the more extreme elements of his following.
Good you are off topic. Let's talk about something more edifying.
Regarding Java FX its still up for grabs tho' as I recall it was
touted as the successor for Swing so probably yes, But first I want
to port Shen to the new SBCL and get the concurrency going.
And we STILL need money.
Mark
On Nov 2, 7:08 pm, Jacob <submissionfight...@gmx.com> wrote:
> "freetards"...LOL. I disagree that clojure has been completely civil. In
> fact, on more than one occasion you will find Mr Hickey getting pissed off
> at people who mindlessly complain(by mindless I mean that kind of
> regurgitated, I only know what the influential people of the world have
> told me) Anyway, I have a completely off topic question... Dr Tarver, did
> you decide to use Java FX or something else? I am always prodding for
> answers but I think it is good to keep information flowing for
> adoption(hehe, even if "freetards" will not accept the superiority of Shen).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:05:58 PM UTC-4, Rafael Turner wrote:
>
> >http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4730535
I must say that the 'freetards' label made me smile when I first came
across it. Even Torvalds has gone on record as wanting to distance
himself from the more extreme elements of his following.
Good you are off topic. Let's talk about something more edifying.
Regarding Java FX its still up for grabs tho' as I recall it was
touted as the successor for Swing so probably yes, But first I want
to port Shen to the new SBCL and get the concurrency going.
And we STILL need money.
Mark
On Nov 2, 7:08 pm, Jacob <submissionfight...@gmx.com> wrote:
> "freetards"...LOL. I disagree that clojure has been completely civil. In
> fact, on more than one occasion you will find Mr Hickey getting pissed off
> at people who mindlessly complain(by mindless I mean that kind of
> regurgitated, I only know what the influential people of the world have
> told me) Anyway, I have a completely off topic question... Dr Tarver, did
> you decide to use Java FX or something else? I am always prodding for
> answers but I think it is good to keep information flowing for
> adoption(hehe, even if "freetards" will not accept the superiority of Shen).
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, November 1, 2012 10:05:58 PM UTC-4, Rafael Turner wrote:
>
> >http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4730535
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