IMPORTANT as we countdown - making it all clear

[Mark Tarver]

We had a long discussion about copyright and licensing and I've brought it together under a document which will be incorporated into the sources.  You can find it here

http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf

Read it carefully.  It is quite simple and follows the Berne convention and the proper understanding of the relations between copyright and licensing.   It applies equally to all of us, so that code you write is respected too. 

As regards certification,  this is not a license issue but a standards issue.  I think just about all of us should be able to make this certification and by example I will be submitting my own CL port to a 2011 committee member to validate as certificate worthy.  I'd encourage people to certify their stuff because it really makes 'write once, run anywhere' a reality.  After certification, you can distribute your work with the certificate attached to it and I'll put your port up against that certificate.

Bruno, Greg, Ramil, Michael, Artella, Mark (Thom), are we all clear and happy with all this?   If you are OK with it, then sound off.  I'm quite happy to hold back release for a day or two in order to clear up any confusion or misgiving, because after this we won't be revisiting the license issue.  So get it all out now.

Mark 

[Mark Tarver]

Sorry, that link was defective.

http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf

[Bruno Deferrari]

Clear and happy here.

> Mark
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Shen" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to qilang+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to qil...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/qilang.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
BD

[h...@ancell-ent.com]

From: Mark Tarver <dr.mt...@gmail.com>

Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 05:43:48 -0800 (PST)

 

We had a long discussion about copyright and licensing and I've brought it together under a document which will be incorporated into the sources.  You can find it here

 

[ http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf should be correct. ]

 

Read it carefully.  It is quite simple and follows the Berne convention and the proper understanding of the relations between copyright and licensing.   It applies equally to all of us, so that code you write is respected too.

 

I suppose it was too much to expect you to, actually, you know, license Shen under a BSD license :-(.

 

From the text you're adding to the BSD license:

 

This license applies to all derived versions of Shen, including all versions derived from the sources
provided whatever the method of compilation and the object code generated. This is the reason for
clause 2 in the BSD. Such derived works should carry the above license on those source files
generated – or with the files if they are binary. Any original code specifically written by the
programmer which not derived from the sources supplied is and should be copyrighted to that
programmer. This work may be placed under any license of choice except GPL because of the viral
condition (see next paragraph)

 

Not only is the above language unclear about what is being referred to in the various parts, one way to read it is the "Scientific Shen" version I posited, that would include, as in links in, the viral GPLed GNU Scientific Library (http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/), would not be allowed.

 

Maybe that's not what you meant, but this sort of confusion happens when you take tested legal language and try to "improve" it.

 

There is no legal right to relicense or sublicense BSD code or any derived version to another license
(e.g. GPL). The power to place a license on a work belongs to the copyright holder.

 

True, but you don't need to say this, since nobody outside of a few FSF fanatics believes it, and even Moglen wasn't willing to push it, was he?  Anyone trying to pull this stunt in a court wouldn't get very far at all, since it could be decided on the law without considering the facts (the easiest way to short-circuit a lawsuit in the US).

 

Every word you add to the license adds to the effort required to analyze it and decide if you can use it, and you're now destroying the #1 advantage of relicensing it, that people could dismiss it out of hand because it had a non-standard license.

A person does not assume copyright over a work by making a small change to it. Only if the change
is substantial to be deemed intellectually significant can such a claim be made and then only over the
change itself. Hence if changing code, if you wish to retain copyright over your changes and they are
intellectually significant, offset these changes under your copyright.

 

Again, more restating normal stuff, in a manner that doesn't actually provide clear rules to anyone desiring to take such a step.  E.g. the last sentence should tell someone what they "mechanically" need to do, e.g. "add your license on top/after the original license, and add these words to indicate it's a derivative work".

 

- Harold

[Greg Spurrier]

> On Feb 2, 2015, at 5:43 AM, Mark Tarver <dr.mt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bruno, Greg, Ramil, Michael, Artella, Mark (Thom), are we all clear and happy with all this? If you are OK with it, then sound off.

I'm clear and happy.

Greg

[Mark Tarver]

Well Harold, what I've said in that document is precisely what I've said publicly in various threads.  I'm not adding to the BSD; I'm making it clear what BSD amounts to.

BSD carries across compilation and that is written into the text of the license itself.    Stuff people write is under their copyright.   

Not only is the above language unclear about what is being referred to in the various parts, one way to read it is the "Scientific Shen" version I posited, that would include, as in links in, the viral GPLed GNU Scientific Library (http://www.gnu.org/software/gsl/), would not be allowed.

The FSF is corrupt and I've said why and you yourself have said the same and said that the standard library should be GPL free.  So if we are GPL free there, then we are free at the kernel level too.   I do not want any association with dual licensing using a 1,000 word+ license run by a corrupt organisation open to the interpretation of a New York lawyer.    Running a GPL program on top of Shen is fine - I have no say in that, no business of mine.  But any usage which requires dual licensing is not one I am prepared to go with until the FSF cleans up its act.   As a matter of policy, the standard library will be BSD and fear-free. 

> There is no legal right to relicense or sublicense BSD code or any derived version to another license
> (e.g. GPL). The power to place a license on a work belongs to the copyright holder.

 

True, but you don't need to say this, since nobody outside of a few FSF fanatics believes it, and even Moglen wasn't willing to push it, was he? 

I'm afraid I disagree.  I have to say this because there is a lot of FUD, stemming from the FSF in reddit and elsewhere, about BSD and GPL.  A lot of hackers think that you can do this, having been misled.   Moglen was only deterred because OpenBSD started a legal fund.

Not only is the above language unclear about what is being referred to in the various parts

I disagree.  Code that is derived (i.e. compiled) from the sources supplied from the Shen site is under BSD and my copyright and anything you write is under your copyright and your license (bar GPL because it is viral).   This is clear.  If you take over somebody's code, you respect their copyright.

Every word you add to the license adds to the effort required to analyze it and decide if you can use it, and you're now destroying the #1 advantage of relicensing it, that people could dismiss it out of hand because it had a non-standard license.

If so much disinformation about copyright and licensing had not been put out,  I would not have to write this.  If people are so easily frightened of licensing and copyright then they need to get out of programming altogether.    We are not children needing to be reassured. 

Also though your input is appreciated, perhaps we might give the space to the platform holders.

Mark

[Ramil Farkhshatov]

Ok.

Although I have non-derived code licensed as GPL. (I consider to use
LLGPL for that or something similar).

[Mark Tarver]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Lesser_General_Public_License#Differences_from_the_GPL

says 

The main difference between the GPL and the LGPL is that the latter allows the work to be linked with (in the case of a library, 'used by') a non-(L)GPLed program

If the viral condition is absent, this is fine.

Mark

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+un...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to qil...@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Tarver]

I'll put the certification text and the licensing text in different files.  They are actually distinct issues.

Mark

[Mark Tarver]

OK, this leaves Artella, Mark and Michael.  Once we've got an OK, I'll move straight away.

Again nothing I've said here adds to the BSD license or is inconsistent with what I have already said several times or departs from copyright law.   This should be anodyne stuff.   I don't mind going over it again.

So waiting here for everybody to green light this.

Mark

[Greg Spurrier]

A question I just thought of: what is the status of the values of the global variables initialized (via set) by Shen during startup?

If I write code to enumerate the global variables in the current Shen environment and then generate Shen code that recreates this global variable environment when executed, is that generated code considered a derived work?

I would think that it is not, but wanted to verify and put the question out for discussion if necessary. 

I ask because this is part of a strategy I'm considering for improving ShenRuby's startup time. 

Greg

On Feb 2, 2015, at 5:43 AM, Mark Tarver <dr.mt...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+un...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to qil...@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Tarver]

Sorry Greg; what global variables do you mean?   The ones in declare.shen which are pretty much mandatory in order for Shen to work and derive from my code? Or stuff you generate in your startup program like *porter* etc.   If it is not generated from my code it is copyrighted to you and under a license of your choice.

Does this answer your question?

Mark

[Greg Spurrier]

I meant all of the values accessible via 'value' after startup. I.e. If I generate code that reconstructs that state via sets with their final values, is it considered derived from the Shen sources? Ruby doesn't support taking images like Lisp, but I'm attempting to mimic it. 

Thinking more about it, I guess this is akin to the data segment in object code and would be considered derived?

Greg

[Mark Tarver]

Well the variables together with their initial values, many of them, derive directly from my code.  Many of these cannot be changed without causing Shen to fail.  The kind of stuff where you set platform specific values is your code.    Given you are running all your code under MIT/BSD (?), it probably doesn't matter if you place this under my copyright and BSD.   But if you really want to lay claim to the platform specific variables under your copyright, you can do so.

Mark

On Monday, 2 February 2015 18:14:04 UTC, Greg Spurrier wrote:

I meant all of the values accessible via 'value' after startup. I.e. If I generate code that reconstructs that state via sets with their final values, is it considered derived from the Shen sources? Ruby doesn't support taking images like Lisp, but I'm attempting to mimic it. 

Thinking more about it, I guess this is akin to the data segment in object code and would be considered derived?

Greg

On Feb 2, 2015, at 9:59 AM, Mark Tarver <dr.mt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry Greg; what global variables do you mean?   The ones in declare.shen which are pretty much mandatory in order for Shen to work and derive from my code? Or stuff you generate in your startup program like *porter* etc.   If it is not generated from my code it is copyrighted to you and under a license of your choice.

Does this answer your question?

Mark

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 5:43 PM, Greg Spurrier <greg.s...@gmail.com> wrote:

A question I just thought of: what is the status of the values of the global variables initialized (via set) by Shen during startup?

If I write code to enumerate the global variables in the current Shen environment and then generate Shen code that recreates this global variable environment when executed, is that generated code considered a derived work?

I would think that it is not, but wanted to verify and put the question out for discussion if necessary. 

I ask because this is part of a strategy I'm considering for improving ShenRuby's startup time. 

Greg

On Feb 2, 2015, at 5:43 AM, Mark Tarver <dr.mt...@gmail.com> wrote:

We had a long discussion about copyright and licensing and I've brought it together under a document which will be incorporated into the sources.  You can find it here

http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf

Read it carefully.  It is quite simple and follows the Berne convention and the proper understanding of the relations between copyright and licensing.   It applies equally to all of us, so that code you write is respected too. 

As regards certification,  this is not a license issue but a standards issue.  I think just about all of us should be able to make this certification and by example I will be submitting my own CL port to a 2011 committee member to validate as certificate worthy.  I'd encourage people to certify their stuff because it really makes 'write once, run anywhere' a reality.  After certification, you can distribute your work with the certificate attached to it and I'll put your port up against that certificate.

Bruno, Greg, Ramil, Michael, Artella, Mark (Thom), are we all clear and happy with all this?   If you are OK with it, then sound off.  I'm quite happy to hold back release for a day or two in order to clear up any confusion or misgiving, because after this we won't be revisiting the license issue.  So get it all out now.

Mark 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to qil...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/qilang.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to qil...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/qilang.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Tarver]

I've done that.  The license is now 1 side of A4, 2/3 of that is BSD and 1/3 are comments on copyright law and licensing. The text on certification, 1/2 side.

http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf

http://www.shenlanguage.org/certification.pdf

Mark

[Raoul Duke]

> and you're now destroying the #1 advantage of
> relicensing it, that people could dismiss it out of hand because it had a
> non-standard license.

Yup!

Not that I have any say in the matter other than as a consumer, observer.

[Greg Spurrier]

Ok. That makes sense. I'm fine having all that under your copyright and license. 

I asked because it was a nuance that I don't recall having been discussed. I care about putting the correct license/copyright on that generated code, not which license/copyright that happens to be.

Greg 

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+un...@googlegroups.com.

[Mark Tarver]

The license is not non-standard.  It is standard BSD.  Problem is that there are some dumb/misinformed people out there.   If they choose to stay dumb, having been informed, then maybe they need to be dismissed themselves.  But again I'm keeping this thread mainly open for the platform holders.  I want this stuff crystal clear.  Everything I'm saying I've said several times before; so really there are no surprises here.   I just want the formal acknowledgement so that we can all go ahead together.  

This psychological 'small furry animals and corporations will be frightened' BS doesn't cut it with me.   We are grown-up or should be and we're better than the lowest stratum of reddit. This is all pretty straightforward in essence.  So let's get through it.

Mark

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+un...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to qil...@googlegroups.com.

[Bruno Deferrari]

Maybe I'm missing something, but my understanding from the beginning
has been that Shen is going to be licensed under a BSD 3-Clause
License (http://opensource.org/licenses/BSD-3-Clause), the rest of the
text on that PDF are just clarifications, not extra conditions.

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Shen" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to qilang+un...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send an email to qil...@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/qilang.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
BD

[Mark Tarver]

Spot on Bruno; exactly right.  There are no extra conditions in the license.  All I'm doing is adding 1/3 side of clarification.   Shen BSD license carries across compilation; respect copyright; not just mine but others too.   Only required because of FUD.

Mark

[Michael Bradley, Jr.]

Just now getting to the computer today...

I'm mostly happy with it (joyous day!), but I do share Harold's concerns to some degree.

Just above the "Note on BSD..." heading, I think it would be helpful to be ultra-clear by having a line/s that reads, "End of the license text. What follows is commentary and does not add any terms or conditions to those indicated above."  Or something like that. To my mind, there should not be even a whiff of doubt that the license is anything other than the 3-clause BSD license approved by the OSI.

Best regards,

--

Michael Bradley

@michaelsbradley

[Marko Kocić]

Why not just put the standard unmodified BSD license as is as a Shen license, and then put additional clarification in a separate file? That way Shen would still have standard BSD license to keep corporate legal departments happy and still provide clarifications which, as you already said, don't add anything to the license.

Modified BSD license as proposed is not standard BSD license, and would have the same chance to be approved in many companies as original Shen license, so what's the point of changing it then?

Cheer

[Raoul Duke]

If the graphic design is fixed to make it clear, yes, it will be better off.

[Mark Tarver]

It is not modified - as said many times - it is exactly a BSD license with some comments attached re licensing law.   I've made this even clearer.

http://www.shenlanguage.org/license.pdf

Mark

[Mark Tarver]

Fair point.  I've made the text even clearer.

Mark

[Mark Tarver]

Assuming that's good we just need Mark Thom and Artella and then we can go ahead.

To Shenturians, sorry, sometimes getting people all on the same boat takes time, but we are very close to getting through this thing.

Mark

[Mark Thom]

Yes, I'm happy and clear.

[Mark Tarver]

Great - just leaves Artella.

Mark

[Mark Tarver]

OK; I'm getting ready to retire here.   Just one vote left to come in and we're there, but I can't stay up much longer.   I'll pick this up tomorrow.

Mark

[Artella Coding]

Fine with me. 

[Mark Tarver]

Good.

The commentary attached to the license is really for porters to establish we have a common understanding of copyright and licensing.  About 1:3 of the hackers mailing in to reddit seem not to have this.    Note the license on top of Shen 17 code files is just the 3 clause BSD.

Right.  I'll get a coffee and then I'll get to work.

Mark