ShenJ - closed?

[Mark Tarver]

Joel,

I think at this point I do have to clear something up both for myself,
and for other members of the group. Do you intend to make ShenJ
closed source? Your private mail to me intimated that you were
seriously considering this. You are of course entitled to do that by
the terms of the license.I said in that event, though I had no quarrel
with your decision and no criticism, if you were to seek further
online support for what would be a commercial venture I'd expect you
to become a sponsor. However neither clarification nor sponsorship
has emerged and instead you want more support.

I have to make this public, because I cannot simply ignore your public
posts. I will of course continue to post up your questions, but for
the time being I will not provide the free support People are free
to help you if they want.

I'm not going to play much part in any thread here, in part because
I'm supposed to be resting for a few days and I'm tuning out to do
that. Willi is moderating and may have something to say.

Mark

[jo...@mentics.com]

tldr: I haven't decided on the specific license, but I intend for my
port of Shen on Java to be released under some type of free including
source, allowing modifications and redistribution, license.

Well, this requires some explanation, I see.

To Mark, I apologize for the delay in response. It was a busy
Thanksgiving weekend for me here in the US, and I wanted some time to
think some things through.

My goal is to provide services around Shen on the JVM platform,
consulting, custom software, maybe even training. Shen is a language
that might be able to do the things I've been wanting to do. Release
the shackles, so to speak.

As I was working through what business model might make the most
sense, I considered the idea of restricting my port of Shen on Java to
a commercial closed source license. The idea was that the more I (and
the company I plan to form) am financially compensated for my work on
Shen, the more I will be able to work on Shen which benefits the Shen
community. So I floated the idea by Mark to see what he thought of it.
He was understanding and I think his primary concern was that whatever
my decision was, I should make it public and soon. I can understand
that if people were going under the assumption that my port would be
open, it would be most proper to announce ASAP if that were not the
case.

So, my plans are that my port will be released under some type of free
license, including source. I haven't decided which license yet. I
don't know if it will be 100% http://opensource.org/osd compliant, but
the Shen license isn't either, and I have to figure things out.

Sorry about the confusion, this was intended to be a private
conversation with Mark but I understand why he forced me to make it
public. I'm hoping to get my port properly released over the next
couple weeks and you'll all be able to play with it, source and all.

As for sponsorship, I do hope to do so at some point.

[jo...@mentics.com]

Yes, certainly. One of the goals of the project is for that Java code
to be useful, though at the moment it is still pretty ugly.

You can set a property that tells it where to write out the Java source code.


On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 10:41 AM, Jacob <submissio...@gmx.com> wrote:
> Joel, is it possible to view the java source code that is "spat" out by
> ShenJ?

[Willi Riha]

I posted your reply as soon as it was received. I have now added a few
remarks

On 26/11/2012 15:53, jo...@mentics.com wrote:
> tldr: I haven't decided on the specific license, but I intend for my
> port of Shen on Java to be released under some type of free including
> source, allowing modifications and redistribution, license.
>
> Well, this requires some explanation, I see.
>
> To Mark, I apologize for the delay in response. It was a busy
> Thanksgiving weekend for me here in the US, and I wanted some time to
> think some things through.
>
> My goal is to provide services around Shen on the JVM platform,
> consulting, custom software, maybe even training. Shen is a language
> that might be able to do the things I've been wanting to do. Release
> the shackles, so to speak.
>
> As I was working through what business model might make the most
> sense, I considered the idea of restricting my port of Shen on Java to
> a commercial closed source license. The idea was that the more I (and
> the company I plan to form) am financially compensated for my work on
> Shen, the more I will be able to work on Shen which benefits the Shen
> community.

This point is very clear: you are hoping to make money out of your port
- and
good luck to you. Mark has been answering your numerous questions to
help you along.
And how does he benefit?

> So I floated the idea by Mark to see what he thought of it.
> He was understanding and I think his primary concern was that whatever
> my decision was, I should make it public and soon. I can understand
> that if people were going under the assumption that my port would be
> open, it would be most proper to announce ASAP if that were not the
> case.
>
> So, my plans are that my port will be released under some type of free
> license, including source. I haven't decided which license yet. I
> don't know if it will be 100% http://opensource.org/osd compliant, but
> the Shen license isn't either, and I have to figure things out.

You have tried to explain your intentions, but your position is still
not clear

> Sorry about the confusion, this was intended to be a private
> conversation with Mark but I understand why he forced me to make it
> public. I'm hoping to get my port properly released over the next
> couple weeks and you'll all be able to play with it, source and all.

I wonder how many of our group are looking forward to this experience!

> As for sponsorship, I do hope to do so at some point.

I am sure that Mark also hopes to reply to your queries at some point!

[jo...@mentics.com]

>> As I was working through what business model might make the most
>> sense, I considered the idea of restricting my port of Shen on Java to
>> a commercial closed source license. The idea was that the more I (and
>> the company I plan to form) am financially compensated for my work on
>> Shen, the more I will be able to work on Shen which benefits the Shen
>> community.
>
> This point is very clear: you are hoping to make money out of your port -

I toyed with the idea, but decided against it. The basic Java port I'm
working on will be made available free. So, no, I won't be making
money directly from the port.

>> So, my plans are that my port will be released under some type of free
>> license, including source. I haven't decided which license yet. I
>> don't know if it will be 100% http://opensource.org/osd compliant, but
>> the Shen license isn't either, and I have to figure things out.
>
> You have tried to explain your intentions, but your position is still not
> clear

I don't understand what remains unclear. The question was about the
license of the Java port I'm working on. I clarified saying that it
would be a free license, including source and such. What remains in
question?

[Mark Tarver]

I don't think you are obliged, nor do I expect you to, share your
business plans online with the whole world. I wish you the very best
in this enterprise and I'm sure other people do too. Let us for the
moment suppose that as long as your posts continue to be on general
lines, that there is no conflict of interest and I can reply to
them.

However at some point you'll probably have to make some decision about
exactly what license you want to use - the Shen one basically only
requires that you keep the title and the implementation works - that's
it. So if you want to place conditions above that, you can do so by
the terms of the license. There are quite a few choices; readable/non-
readable + free for non-commercial use etc. But some people here
would probably be interested to know where you land.

Consider sponsorship in the longer term if you really want to support
your commercial work from this group. Lets close this thread now.

Mark

On 26 Nov, 20:30, j...@mentics.com wrote:
> >> As I was working through what business model might make the most
> >> sense, I considered the idea of restricting my port of Shen on Java to
> >> a commercial closed source license. The idea was that the more I (and
> >> the company I plan to form) am financially compensated for my work on
> >> Shen, the more I will be able to work on Shen which benefits the Shen
> >> community.
>
> > This point is very clear: you are hoping to make money out of your port -
>
> I toyed with the idea, but decided against it. The basic Java port I'm
> working on will be made available free. So, no, I won't be making
> money directly from the port.
>
> >> So, my plans are that my port will be released under some type of free
> >> license, including source. I haven't decided which license yet. I

> >> don't know if it will be 100%http://opensource.org/osdcompliant, but

[Mark Tarver]

One point though is that generating the Java source is less useful if
the Shen Java sources are themselves unreadable. You will not be able
to run the program outside the Shen environment.

Generally there is a challenge because if you write say a ShenJS
program of 30 lines, the full environment of ShenJS code inside Shen
is 20,000 lines. So what you want is to be able to computably extract
just the bit you need and this was a project I was undertaking.

Mark
5:50

On Nov 26, 6:41 pm, Jacob <submissionfight...@gmx.com> wrote:
> Joel, is it possible to view the java source code that is "spat" out by
> ShenJ?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Monday, November 26, 2012 10:57:00 AM UTC-5, jo...@mentics.com wrote:
>

> > don't know if it will be 100%http://opensource.org/osdcompliant, but

> > the Shen license isn't either, and I have to figure things out.
>
> > Sorry about the confusion, this was intended to be a private
> > conversation with Mark but I understand why he forced me to make it
> > public. I'm hoping to get my port properly released over the next
> > couple weeks and you'll all be able to play with it, source and all.
>
> > As for sponsorship, I do hope to do so at some point.
>

> > On Mon, Nov 26, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Mark Tarver <dr.mt...@gmail.com<javascript:>>

[Mark Tarver]

In some sense yes. It analyses your Shen application and eliminates
from the Shen sources all the code you do not need to run your
application. Since the JS sources for Shen are 20,000+ lines of code
- that can be a big saving.

What my beta version showed is that diddy programs throw up a
surprisingly huge 'tail' of Shen system code. The main problem is the
use of innocent looking constructions like (input) which actually draw
in the Shen evaluator and the whole reader. It's very easy to write
code like this and not hard to avoid it if you know where it arises.

Editors can contribute to solving this but you need a different model
of editor. For example, right now, you have colour coding so that
strings are purple say, lists are green etc. You get this on NotePad2
and also on Qi/Emacs. That's too low.

Have you seen Predator II? Remember the part where they are hunting
the alien in a meat packing factory and the alien gets suspicious and
switches his vision from IR to UV? Then he sees the humans who are
masking under IR and of course they are toast after that.

What we need wrt Babel is something like the power that the alien had
to switch filters.because syntax is very superficial. For example I
may say 'Babel switch to the code weight filter' and it colour codes
my source in terms of the weight of the tail showing (input) up in
blinding crimson. Or i might say 'Babel switch to the termination
filter' and it highlights the code that might lead to an infinite
loop. Or 'Switch to the type filter' and I see my datatypes in
different colours with a manky colour for the parts which are not type
secure.

To build something like that requires an integration of the best of
GUI with va total mastery of logic engines and type theories and how
to build them together with a metalanguage that is so powerful that it
can put all these things together for any arbitrary language. Shen is
about the only thing I know that is powerful enough to do that.

However right now the whole 'vision thing' (as Bush snr) described it;
is in peril because we have very little funding.

Mark
1:45




On 3 Dec, 04:20, Jacob <submissionfight...@gmx.com> wrote:
> Mark, what you are working on... Is it similar to the google closure
> compiler in the sense of a code minifier/dead code eliminator?