Rejection of project by PSF
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David MacQuigg
Apr 21, 2010, 9:31:40 PM4/21/10
to PyWhip
We just got a rejection of all proposals relating to PyKata. There
was no opportunity to respond to the criticisms of the project, and no
opportunity to change it now, but Andre and I did get involved in a
discussion about trying to improve the process. This discussion,
unfortunately, is turning into a debate on the merits of one
proposal. Rather than bother everyone on the PSF list, I invited
anyone interested to continue here. Please be respectful, and stick
to the issues. Everyone at PSF is doing their best.
Here is a summary of the criticisms, and my initial responses.
1) This is a proposal for a website, not an application. We don't
fund website development.
1R) It is an application that runs on the web (a web application),
not just fancy HTML. There is some serious coding, not something the
PHP guy at our local ISP can do.
2) This project is far too big, even for the best and brightest
student.
2R) The tasks are prioritized, and we will get a working webapp, good
enough for teachers to use this fall, even if it doesn't have all the
nice, but non-essential things in the proposal. We asked our students
to think big, with the understanding that they wouldn't be expected to
do everything. Did you notice the * on the items at the bottom of the
list? These are the optional items, to be done only if there is
time. Note: This criticism seems inconsistent with the one above.
3) This is not the kind of well-established community project which
participates in Summer of Code. We need to see releases, something
that users can download and install.
3R1) True, we are just getting started, but isn't Python itself not so
well established, compared to say Java or C++? We have a good start,
and one summer of coding will easily provide a tool at least as good
as JavaBat.com. I wonder if the folks who developed Ruby-on-rails got
this reaction from the Python community: Just another web development
tool, we already have a dozen. Go play with those Ruby kids. You're
just not in our league.
3R2) One reason we decided on a web application is to avoid any
requirement for a download and install. PyKata will work on any web
browser. Think of the Java teacher at your local community college.
Try to get him to try Python. He will find something he doesn't like,
maybe the idea of relying on whitespace to define structure. Words
are not going to change his mind. Later, while nobody is watching,
he'll visit our website. We'll get him hooked with a few simple
exercises.
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was no opportunity to respond to the criticisms of the project, and no
opportunity to change it now, but Andre and I did get involved in a
discussion about trying to improve the process. This discussion,
unfortunately, is turning into a debate on the merits of one
proposal. Rather than bother everyone on the PSF list, I invited
anyone interested to continue here. Please be respectful, and stick
to the issues. Everyone at PSF is doing their best.
Here is a summary of the criticisms, and my initial responses.
1) This is a proposal for a website, not an application. We don't
fund website development.
1R) It is an application that runs on the web (a web application),
not just fancy HTML. There is some serious coding, not something the
PHP guy at our local ISP can do.
2) This project is far too big, even for the best and brightest
student.
2R) The tasks are prioritized, and we will get a working webapp, good
enough for teachers to use this fall, even if it doesn't have all the
nice, but non-essential things in the proposal. We asked our students
to think big, with the understanding that they wouldn't be expected to
do everything. Did you notice the * on the items at the bottom of the
list? These are the optional items, to be done only if there is
time. Note: This criticism seems inconsistent with the one above.
3) This is not the kind of well-established community project which
participates in Summer of Code. We need to see releases, something
that users can download and install.
3R1) True, we are just getting started, but isn't Python itself not so
well established, compared to say Java or C++? We have a good start,
and one summer of coding will easily provide a tool at least as good
as JavaBat.com. I wonder if the folks who developed Ruby-on-rails got
this reaction from the Python community: Just another web development
tool, we already have a dozen. Go play with those Ruby kids. You're
just not in our league.
3R2) One reason we decided on a web application is to avoid any
requirement for a download and install. PyKata will work on any web
browser. Think of the Java teacher at your local community college.
Try to get him to try Python. He will find something he doesn't like,
maybe the idea of relying on whitespace to define structure. Words
are not going to change his mind. Later, while nobody is watching,
he'll visit our website. We'll get him hooked with a few simple
exercises.
--
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Eliseo Ocampos
Apr 21, 2010, 11:17:19 PM4/21/10
to pyw...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:31 PM, David MacQuigg <macq...@box67.com> wrote:
> We just got a rejection of all proposals relating to PyKata. There
> was no opportunity to respond to the criticisms of the project, and no
> opportunity to change it now, but Andre and I did get involved in a
> discussion about trying to improve the process. This discussion,
> unfortunately, is turning into a debate on the merits of one
> proposal. Rather than bother everyone on the PSF list, I invited
> anyone interested to continue here. Please be respectful, and stick
> to the issues. Everyone at PSF is doing their best.
>
This is a real shame. I'm not very convinced with the reasons they
argue to reject the project, but I'm thinking that perhaps we are not
very inline with the PSF priorities, like porting tools to Python 3.x
or others that involve core development.
Hoping that these questions were relevant: What do we know about the
other projects in Education? (Crunchy, Software Carpentry) Were
rejected as well? If so, why were rejected?
I think that the answers could be relevant to know the level of
importance to teach Python using a tool and not just tutorials/books
or other conventional means.
Despite having been rejected, I wish the best to the project and all
people here, I really like PyKata and I know we can do great things
with it in the future :)
Best Regards,
Eliseo.
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 9:31 PM, David MacQuigg <macq...@box67.com> wrote:
> We just got a rejection of all proposals relating to PyKata. There
> was no opportunity to respond to the criticisms of the project, and no
> opportunity to change it now, but Andre and I did get involved in a
> discussion about trying to improve the process. This discussion,
> unfortunately, is turning into a debate on the merits of one
> proposal. Rather than bother everyone on the PSF list, I invited
> anyone interested to continue here. Please be respectful, and stick
> to the issues. Everyone at PSF is doing their best.
>
argue to reject the project, but I'm thinking that perhaps we are not
very inline with the PSF priorities, like porting tools to Python 3.x
or others that involve core development.
Hoping that these questions were relevant: What do we know about the
other projects in Education? (Crunchy, Software Carpentry) Were
rejected as well? If so, why were rejected?
I think that the answers could be relevant to know the level of
importance to teach Python using a tool and not just tutorials/books
or other conventional means.
Despite having been rejected, I wish the best to the project and all
people here, I really like PyKata and I know we can do great things
with it in the future :)
Best Regards,
Eliseo.
Andre Roberge
Apr 22, 2010, 5:14:39 AM4/22/10
to pyw...@googlegroups.com
[snip]
Hoping that these questions were relevant: What do we know about the
other projects in Education? (Crunchy, Software Carpentry) Were
rejected as well? If so, why were rejected?
While I share the feelings expressed by David, I would suggest that ino one else would comment publicly about project status until the official announcements by Google. It is considered highly inappropriate by Google to give any indication about project status before *they* do the announcements.
André
David MacQuigg
Apr 22, 2010, 12:38:35 PM4/22/10
to PyWhip
Good point, Andre. I changed this list so it is not publicly
viewable, and will keep it that way for a few days.
To answer Eliseo's question, it appears that none of the 30 proposals
accepted by PSF were in education. Of the 74 total proposals to PSF,
I'm guessing half were overlaps like with our project (5 proposals for
one project). So that means maybe 7 proposals were rejected that
could have been accepted with more slots from Google.
We were given no reasons for the rejections, other than the responses
to the thread started by Andre. This is the part of the process we
need to change.
I would not jump to the conclusion that PyKata or a tool like it is
unimportant to the Python community. Rather, I would assume that
something just went very wrong with the GSoC selection process.
viewable, and will keep it that way for a few days.
To answer Eliseo's question, it appears that none of the 30 proposals
accepted by PSF were in education. Of the 74 total proposals to PSF,
I'm guessing half were overlaps like with our project (5 proposals for
one project). So that means maybe 7 proposals were rejected that
could have been accepted with more slots from Google.
We were given no reasons for the rejections, other than the responses
to the thread started by Andre. This is the part of the process we
need to change.
I would not jump to the conclusion that PyKata or a tool like it is
unimportant to the Python community. Rather, I would assume that
something just went very wrong with the GSoC selection process.
Andre Roberge
Apr 22, 2010, 12:58:50 PM4/22/10
to pyw...@googlegroups.com
On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 1:38 PM, David MacQuigg <macq...@box67.com> wrote:
Good point, Andre. I changed this list so it is not publicly
viewable, and will keep it that way for a few days.
To answer Eliseo's question, it appears that none of the 30 proposals
accepted by PSF were in education.
Not quite; there is one (ranked 27) to which I alluded in my email on the Mentor list, and which was mentioned by Eliseo if I recall.
Of the 74 total proposals to PSF,
I'm guessing half were overlaps like with our project (5 proposals for
one project). So that means maybe 7 proposals were rejected that
could have been accepted with more slots from Google.
We were given no reasons for the rejections, other than the responses
to the thread started by Andre. This is the part of the process we
need to change.
And, in the past, there were a lot more discussions about various projects.
I would not jump to the conclusion that PyKata or a tool like it is
unimportant to the Python community. Rather, I would assume that
something just went very wrong with the GSoC selection process.
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