A Python sandbox...

[Jeff Elkner]

I had a good conversation with Andy this afternoon. To sum up (Andy,
please correct any errors / omissions):

* We have two sets of goals under discussion here, both of which have
value to the python edu community, but both of which should probably
be pursued independently so that neither slows down the progress of
the other. The two sets of goals are:

1. The PyKata website. The focus of this project is to provide an
on-line resource to python learners similar to the Coding Bat web site
(http://codingbat.com/), but with a more open, community oriented
development. The content on this site is free, as is the software,
even if it requires the non-free Google App Engine hosting platform.
This site will be useful to both self learners and teachers, who won't
have to install anything to use it. They can just try their minds on
the the problems on the site.

2. A separate "DocTestQuiz" web application which runs on a completely
free platform, and is aimed more at projects needing their own
customizable tool for interactive on-line python.

jeff elkner

btw. I forwarded Andre's suggestion that we look at t www.skulpt.org
and pypy.org for a solution to running python in a secure sandbox.
PyPy looks most promising. David will investigate that during the
next week.

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[David MacQuigg]

Hi Jeff,

I'm not understanding the problems with Google App Engine not being
completely free. The fees kick in only if we get really big, and at
that point we can probably get some donations from PSF, or even a
waiver from Google. As you know, they are quite generous with
education and charitable organizations like ours.

The main concern, which I think we have addressed, is that we not be
locked in to any proprietary technology. If Google ever becomes
"evil", we can easily migrate to another service, including the one
you are planning.

Our top priority right now should be getting some content organized
for the fall semester. I would like to see that happen in the next
two months, so there is time for teachers to do some planning.

Good luck with your alternative to App Engine.

-- Dave

[Jeff Elkner]

Hi Dave,

Let me start by saying that I really do think we have two use cases
here, and I'm with you that we need not be so concerned about lack of
freedom for the PyKata website itself. When I speak of "free" by the
way, I mean "free as in speech", so fees have nothing to do with
that.

My use case is different. I'm interested in a technology to be used
with "live" on-line textbooks and tutorials. I want the exercises in
the book I've been working on for several years
(http://openbookproject.net/thinkcs/python/english2e/) to be solved by
students interactively through the web. What's more, I'd really love
for quizzes and tests to be able to be taken on-line, and for the
results to be available automatically to our school information system
(http://schooltool.org). So free as in freedom is really important to
me, because I'm interested in a technology that can be integrated with
other free systems.

Hope that helps...

Thanks!

jeff

[David MacQuigg]

Hi Jeff,

Thanks for clarifying your concerns. On the issue of "open
source" (to distinguish it from "zero cost") you are right, Google's
App Engine is not open-source. What would we do with the source code
if we had it? Perhaps there is some part we could extract to make a
local sandbox, but we would still be missing the benefits of a large
network with instant response anywhere in the world.

On the issue of flexibility in content, I don't understand what PyKata
is missing. Take a look at http://pykata.org/static/template.html.txt.
This is a template you can use to construct any pages you want.
Ignore the Django stuff in {curly brackets}. The rest is straight
HTML. Give it a try. I'll post it at http://pykata.org/~elkner.

Take a look also at the mockup of our Teacher Report at
http://pykata.appspot.com/static/T_report.htm. There is an "Export"
link which will download the entire table, so you can feed it into
your own spreadsheet for grading or integration with the system in
your school.

I don't mean to push you into doing something you are not comfortable
with, but I don't want to lose a top author due to some simple
misunderstanding of the technology. If you still feel it's a
technical limitation, tell me specifically what is missing. Perhaps
an example of some "live online text" would help. Put it in your
template, and I'll see if I can make it work.

The PyKata deal is pretty simple, and is the essense of open-source.
You contribute content under the creative commons license, and other
authors are free to use that content in their own pages (unlike
JavaBat). We all share the cost of developing the infrastructure, and
we avoid the cost of "marketing" our individual "brands".

We all benefit from the synergy of our different audiences remembering
the brand "PyKata". I will be happy if a few years from now, one of
your students, in a rush on some engineering project, remembers
"PyKata" and benefits from my writing, which is oriented toward
professional engineers who already understand programming. Likewise,
you should be happy if one of my engineers has kids who tell their
teacher to take a look at Jeff Elkner's online book.

The magic of open source is its ability to attract contributors from
all over the world, and accomplish more than any one alone could do.
The problem with most open-source projects is that everyone wants to
do their own thing, and there is no teamwork. I would like to make
PyKata one of the few successful open-source projects, an exception to
the rule.

Best Regards,