Irrational fear of Python

[M to the B]

Hello,

My name is Matt and I've just joined this group. My reason for joining
is that I've a question I'd like to ask Python users and I'm based in
Ireland, so this seems like a reasonable place. I'd like to give a
quick bit of context first, before getting to said question.

I've been tinkering with computers since I was a kid, and over the
years I've used a fairly wide selection of languages, from assembly to
ML, in different capacities and at different levels of proficiency.
Lately, I've mostly been using Perl at work and while I like Perl for
letting me do what I want and putting bread on the table, I'm very
much aware of its drawbacks. It's also getting a bit long in the
tooth.
As it happens, one of my colleagues -who is probably on this group- is
a Python advocate and has convinced me that Python is the language I
should take up. I've been given useful pointers, I bought a book
but... I still haven't learned a thing about Python because of a
stupid mental block when it comes to the language and its users. I
understand and appreciate that it is wholly irrational and ridiculous
to be afraid of a programming language and therefore I want to ask:

Has anyone around here overcome similar prejudice before becoming a
Python user? Or maybe in relation to some other language? If so, I'd
like to hear about your experience.

I wish to assure you I'm not trolling. In my experience, it's not
uncommon for programmers and hackers of various stripes to hold
preconceptions in favour of or against a given language/technology and/
or its users (would you take up Perl for instance? or FORTRAN?). I'm
hoping that by asking a large enough set of people, I'll come across
folks who have managed to expand their horizons in spite of such
prejudice.

Thank you,

- Matt

[Sean O'Donnell]

Hi Matt, and welcome

Im not sure if this is what you are looking for, but I ran from python
screaming the first few times I tried it. Significant white-space, it
really annoyed me for a very long time. I think it probably came from
nightmarish experiences with a cobol system I had to work on in college,
it had all sorts of weird rules about what had to start in what column.

Python kept cropping up over time as providing nice solutions for
problems I needed to solve, and eventually I overcame the block and
spent enough time with it to become comfortable.

I would be curious to hear a little more about the specifics of the
nature of the block. In any case, good luck overcoming the block. (By
the way, I have used Perl in the past, but not Fortran, but if I came
across a problem that it seemed well suited to I would take it for a
spin. I don't consider myself just a Python programmer, only primarily a
python programmer, always choose the right tool for the job, and no one
language is always the right tool).

All the best

Sean

[Rory Browne]

I'm probably not the most useful responder you could get for this,
since I'm not yet fluent in Python myself, and still when a new
problem comes up, my first instinct is still to reach for Perl. Most
of my python experience is in reading other peoples code, to find out
how systems that I'm supposed to administer work.

I think my personal issue to overcome with Python was the lack of
semi-colons. They reminded me too much of BASIC, where I'd picked up a
few bad habits, and had just gotten rid of by the time I'd started
looking at Python. It's probably relevent that nearly every other
language I've looked at used a c-like syntax as well.

Rory

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[moylan]

On 22 August 2010 17:28, M to the B <directed...@gmail.com> wrote:

As it happens, one of my colleagues -who is probably on this group- is
a Python advocate and has convinced me that Python is the language I
should take up. I've been given useful pointers, I bought a book
but... I still haven't learned a thing about Python because of a
stupid mental block when it comes to the language and its users. I
understand and appreciate that it is wholly irrational and ridiculous
to be afraid of a programming language and therefore I want to ask:

Has anyone around here overcome similar prejudice before becoming a
Python user? Or maybe in relation to some other language? If so, I'd
like to hear about your experience.

 
any time i have jumped platforms, dos -> windows -> mac -> linux.
or psion -> palm -> symbian -> iphone -> android
or jumped development systems ms basic -> vb basic plus a dozen minor scripting languages
and adjacent toolkits dbf -> homemade fixed length record databases -> sql
or even primary apps netscape -> opera -> firefox

i have mental blocks were i find it easier to create code in the older version than the newer one or complete a task in less time with the older tech than the newer one.  but sometimes you have to move forward.  why are you looking at python?  what does python do that none of your older development languages do?

for me at least it is flexibility.  on a day to day basis i use mac osx and linux and android.  a lot of my customers use windows.  so i needed a language that would at some level run on all those platforms.  i won't be holding my breath for ms to release one.  i haven't gotten too far but every small script i get running is a useful tool that helps me on those platforms.

bonuses are that i can quickly find existing code that will do quite complex tasks send email via gmail or handle ftp with a quick google search.

starting again from scratch can be off putting but all i can say is keep trying.  it is worth it.

regards,
moylan

--
Eagles may soar but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

[Kevin Gill]

> On 22 August 2010 17:28, M to the B <directed...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>

>> As it happens, one of my colleagues -who is probably on this group- is
>> a Python advocate and has convinced me that Python is the language I
>> should take up. I've been given useful pointers, I bought a book
>> but... I still haven't learned a thing about Python because of a
>> stupid mental block when it comes to the language and its users. I
>> understand and appreciate that it is wholly irrational and ridiculous
>> to be afraid of a programming language and therefore I want to ask:
>>
>> Has anyone around here overcome similar prejudice before becoming a
>> Python user? Or maybe in relation to some other language? If so, I'd
>> like to hear about your experience.
>>
>>

My position is something similar. I won't describe it as 'an irrational
fear', but rather a 'reluctance'. I am reluctant to use a new
language/framework. I know that it might be more fruitful in the long
term, but for this next job, I have something in my toolbox which can be
made to fit this job. Less effort now, more certain outcome / lower risk,
etc.

When you have multiple developers on a project they can be 'reluctant' to
use each others tools. If you have stubborn developers this may result in
long term tensions, so it's important to spot it early.

Kevin

[Joe Drumgoole]

Matt,

Start with,

http://wiki.python.org/moin/LanguageComparisons

To allay your initial fears but pay particular attention to Eric Raymond eulogy for Python.

http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/3882

Since 2006 I've converted over a dozen programmers to Python. None of them have ever regretted the move and several now use it as their preferred programming language. I'm a big fan of Django http://www.djangoproject.com/ as a way to leverage Python's power and expressiveness.

I would also skip over the standard Python tutorials and instead go straight to http://diveintopython.org/ which is a much more useful introduction to the language.

all the best,

Joe.

On 22 August 2010 17:28, M to the B <directed...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[M to the B]

Thanks Sean.

I've been thinking about that for a while after I started this thread
yesterday. It's true that I find significant whitespace weird. In a
way, it does remind me of an unhappy experience writing Pascal and
Delphi many moons ago. Likewise, the lack of semi-colons goes against
the flow for me - to this day, I terminate lines of shell script with
gratuitous semi-colons.

But I think the biggest roadblock for me is the duality between Python
as a language that is used to write machine-readable code on the one
hand, and on the other Python as a cause to be advocated for.I think
the former is a bit weird but not unmanageably so. The latter is where
the irrational element creeps in. There's a lot of people blogging
about Python and related topics out there. I understand now that it
reminds me of my early experience with Linux. I started using it in 98
(Red Hat 5.2!) and I saw it as a very fun thing to play with. But some
time thereafter, I started reading Slashdot comments and that's when
the conflicting opinions, the competitive snobbery and the trolling
sucked the joy out of it for me. I'm not saying that Python folks are
like that, but seeing Python as something many people are very
opinionated about puts me off.

So I've a lead for my own problem there: I should try reading more
code and fewer comments.

Thank you.

- Matt

[Vicky Twomey-Lee]

Hi Matt,

First of all, welcome. Drop along to meet-ups, it's a great way to chat to others on their own experiences.

Good luck,

/// Vicky

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~ http://irishbornchinese.com ~~
~~       http://www.python.ie     ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[M to the B]

Hello everyone and thanks for your replies.

I think that a better approach for me would be to just start picking
away at some Python code, as opposed to reading books/tutorials/blogs
since evidently I have a problem with those.

What I'm looking for would be easily digestible chunks of real Python
code, preferably <=1000 LOC. I was thinking maybe admin scripts or
small data processing utilities, to cut my teeth on the syntax. Would
anyone know where I can find that?

Thanks,

- Matt

On Aug 23, 1:28 pm, Vicky Twomey-Lee <why...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Matt,
>
> First of all, welcome. Drop along to meet-ups, it's a great way to chat to
> others on their own experiences.
>
> Good luck,
>
> /// Vicky
>
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~http://irishbornchinese.com~~
> ~~      http://www.python.ie    ~~
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>

> > pythonirelan...@googlegroups.com<pythonireland%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[Vicky Twomey-Lee]

Hi Matt,

Joe mentioned http://diveintopython.org/ and it's a great starting point.

You can find Python recipes at http://code.activestate.com/recipes/langs/python/,

and also check out http://stackoverflow.com as well.

All I can say is just get your hands dirty with a project you are working on, or some utility you want replacing.

Have fun!

/// Vicky

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~~ http://irishbornchinese.com ~~

~~       http://www.python.ie     ~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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[Paul Barry]

Hi Matt:

If you are into Admin-type stuff, I'd highly recommend this book (disclaimer: I'm an O'Reilly author): 

        http://oreilly.com/catalog/9780596515829/

I see you have mentioned you have a "problem" with this type of book-learning, but after a short 20 page introduction to Python, you can pick'n'choose admin topics to explore from a Python point-of-view from the rest of the book (as each chapter is pretty much self-contained).  There's plenty of good stuff in there.  Last time I looked, there was a copy in Hoggis-Figgis.

I can also, as suggested by Vicky, highly recommend "Dive into Python", and would encourage you to look at the Python 3 specific edition, which is available for free here:

        http://diveintopython3.org/

You can read it on-line and/or download it in full as PDF or HTML (you can also buy a "dead-tree copy", too).  Chapter 15 is especially useful as the author tackles a large porting project and hits on many of the nooks'n'crannies of the language.

Best of luck with whatever you do.

Regards.

Paul.

--
Paul Barry - http://glasnost.itcarlow.ie/~barryp
Lecturer, Computer Networking: Institute of Technology, Carlow, Ireland.
http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/au/3677 and http://programming.itcarlow.ie