Pyramid and Python 3.3.0 beta 2

[Luke D]

I realize that this version was just released over the weekend, but thought I'd put things I've noticed, questions, and issues out here.

Noticed

---------------

- New virtual environment "venv" is handy

- There is a new packaging module that deprecates distutils

- Namespace Packages

Questions

----------------

- Are there any known issues with pyramid and the new virtual environment

- Will the new packaging be used for creating pyramid projects in the future?

- Will namespace packages eliminate the need for config.scan?

Issues

-----------------

- I'm getting an error on Mac OSX Lion when I pserve a standard scaffold ( AttributeError: 'SourceFileLoader' object has no attribute 'etc') in venusian/__init__.py line 181

[Philip Jenvey]

On Aug 13, 2012, at 11:44 AM, Luke D wrote:

> I realize that this version was just released over the weekend, but thought I'd put things I've noticed, questions, and issues out here.
>
> Noticed
> ---------------
>
> - New virtual environment "venv" is handy
> - There is a new packaging module that deprecates distutils

packaging was actually removed in an earlier release, because it's unfinished.

> - Namespace Packages
>
> Questions
> ----------------
>
> - Are there any known issues with pyramid and the new virtual environment

There shouldn't be

> - Will namespace packages eliminate the need for config.scan?

I don't see how this would eliminate that need. Plus we already have namespace packages, this is really just a better, official impl of them.

>
> Issues
> -----------------
>
> - I'm getting an error on Mac OSX Lion when I pserve a standard scaffold ( AttributeError: 'SourceFileLoader' object has no attribute 'etc') in venusian/__init__.py line 181

Could you post a new bug with a full traceback? Major parts of Python's import system were rewritten for 3.3 (including SourceFileLoader).

--
Philip Jenvey

[Luke D]

Posted an issue with full traceback to Pyramid: https://github.com/Pylons/pyramid/issues/657 

[Mike Orr]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Philip Jenvey <pje...@underboss.org> wrote:
>> - New virtual environment "venv" is handy

What does this mean?

>> - There is a new packaging module that deprecates distutils
>
> packaging was actually removed in an earlier release, because it's unfinished.

Does that mean we'll have to wait until 3.4 for it? That's really
unfortunate because I've been waiting months for 3.3, and an end to
having to explain to people how to make their Python installation
setuptools-aware.

--
Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com>

[Marius Gedminas]

On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 08:18:28PM -0700, Mike Orr wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Philip Jenvey <pje...@underboss.org> wrote:
> >> - New virtual environment "venv" is handy
>
> What does this mean?

http://docs.python.org/dev/library/venv.html

> >> - There is a new packaging module that deprecates distutils
> >
> > packaging was actually removed in an earlier release, because it's unfinished.
>
> Does that mean we'll have to wait until 3.4 for it? That's really
> unfortunate because I've been waiting months for 3.3, and an end to
> having to explain to people how to make their Python installation
> setuptools-aware.

I've been waiting for Python 2.5 because there were some talks early in
its development about setuptools maybe making it into the standard
library...

Marius Gedminas
--
We don't care. We don't have to. We're the Phone Company.

[Philip Jenvey]

At least 3.4, that is the goal. Though even that is tentative, there's still some things that need to be ironed out and there's unfortunately a bit of a lack of developer time/interest.

--
Philip Jenvey

[Mike Orr]

So in the meantime we're still using distribute? I thought there was
an effort to deprecate distribute as setuptools was deprecated
earlier, but if distutils2 still isn't ready for general use, that
leaves nothing but distribute to fall back on.

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--
Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com>

[Chris McDonough]

On 08/14/2012 09:10 PM, Mike Orr wrote:
> So in the meantime we're still using distribute? I thought there was
> an effort to deprecate distribute as setuptools was deprecated
> earlier, but if distutils2 still isn't ready for general use, that
> leaves nothing but distribute to fall back on.

Effectively nothing has changed at all architecturally with the release
of 3.3 vs. what existed with 3.2.

- C

[Sayth Renshaw]

Still 3.3 it's pretty sweet to include virtual environments in the core. http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0405/ 

[Mike Orr]

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 4:54 AM, Sayth Renshaw <flebbe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Still 3.3 it's pretty sweet to include virtual environments in the core.
> http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0405/

Although this will mean installing dowloading and installing
distribute manually since it won't do it automatically unlike
virtualenv. Which brings us back to the original problem that people
have to learn how to install one package manually so that they can
install all their other packages with pip.


--
Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com>

[Michael Merickel]

pip and distribute are mutually exclusive but yes people have to
manually install either pip or distribute depending on which they want
to use.

[Sayth Renshaw]

On Ubuntu

sudo apt-get install python3.3 pip

Will be all you need to have python with venv and package management setup.

Sayth

[Mike Orr]

Mutually exclusive? Does pip include its own support for eggs and
namespace packages and pkg_resources?

--
Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com>

[Chris McDonough]

On 08/15/2012 10:03 PM, Mike Orr wrote:
> Mutually exclusive? Does pip include its own support for eggs and
> namespace packages and pkg_resources?

You can install both of them into the same interpreter and that's no
problem, but mixing usage of both in that interpreter can lead to
bizarre weirdness, so they are effectively mutually exclusive as
runnable things (at least if you like sanity).

- C

[Mike Orr]

So I'm confused. I thought Distribute was a rewrite of Setuptools, and
Pip was just a command-line front end. So there are really three
implementations of package management?

[Michael Merickel]

On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com> wrote:
> So I'm confused. I thought Distribute was a rewrite of Setuptools, and
> Pip was just a command-line front end. So there are really three
> implementations of package management?

yes

[Marius Gedminas]

Um.

pip *depends* on Distribute.

pip replaces easy_install which is just one part of Distribute.

IIRC pip used to work with Setuptools as well (instead of Distribute),
but I'm not sure it still does.

Marius Gedminas
--
It should be noted that no ethically-trained software engineer would ever
consent to write a DestroyBaghdad procedure. Basic professional ethics would
instead require him to write a DestroyCity procedure, to which Baghdad could be
given as a parameter.
-- Nathaniel S Borenstein

[Mike Orr]

On Thu, Aug 16, 2012 at 1:32 AM, Marius Gedminas <mar...@gedmin.as> wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 09:25:31PM -0500, Michael Merickel wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 15, 2012 at 9:24 PM, Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > So I'm confused. I thought Distribute was a rewrite of Setuptools, and
>> > Pip was just a command-line front end. So there are really three
>> > implementations of package management?
>>
>> yes
>
> Um.
>
> pip *depends* on Distribute.
>
> pip replaces easy_install which is just one part of Distribute.

That's what I thought too but it contradicts what Mike Merickel is
saying. He seems to be saying that the Pip package reimplements
Distribute or something like that, and leads to conflicts if both Pip
and Distribute are installed.

When I'm using site-packages, I install Ubuntu's python-setuptools
(really distribute), python-pip, python-virtualenv, and
virtualenvwrapper. When I'm not using site-packages, well, I do the
same but virtualenv installs a local distribute *and* pip into the
virtualenv, or at least it says it does.

--
Mike Orr <slugg...@gmail.com>

[Michael Merickel]

Sorry, I consider them distinct because if you install namespace
packages with both then they tend to conflict. I wrote my previous
reply in packaging anger.