Python Asia Organization and the Future of PyCon in APAC

[Iqbal Abdullah]

Esteemed community members,

As some of you are already aware, we announced the launch of the Python Asia Organization (PAO) during our talk at PyCon APAC 2024 in YIA last weekend.

PAO is not a new idea; we've been discussing it since before the pandemic, and I briefly touched on the concept during my PyCon APAC 2022 Keynote.

If you've missed it, here is the initial document for PAO which lists out what and why we have it.

Joining me in running PAO are fellow community members Manabu Terada (JP), Kwon-Han Bae (KR), and Freilla Mae Espinola (PH). Freilla will join us as our Executive Director, and this will be a paid position for her.

One of PAO's main objectives is to hold the IP rights and infrastructure for our annual regional conference.

Today, I would like to bring to your attention a decision we need to make about the name of our conference:

As you know, "PyCon" is a registered trademark of the Python Software Foundation (PSF) in the US. Because of this, PAO cannot hold the IP for "PyCon APAC." If we want ownership of our regional conference, it must not include the word "PyCon."

There are two parts to this question: Q1) Do we need to change our regional conference name? Q2) If we do, what name should we change it to?

I would like to discuss both of these questions with all of you on this mailing list.

For Q1, I strongly believe we need to change the name. An example is "EuroPython," which did not use the word "PyCon" (partly because they started in 2002, even before the first PyCon) and they own this name. Due to their foresight, they have managed to continuously produce a regional conference without significant issues, regardless of policy or personnel changes within the PSF, its Workgroups, or its Board.

Although we're making progress in terms of diversity and inclusion, the PSF is still far from being a non-US or non-Western Europe-centric organization. The differences between the non-CoC values that the PSF holds affect their policies and decision-making. Board members change, and until we have a steady stream of people from our community elected onto that Board (which is what PAO aims to achieve in the long term), we cannot expect significant changes.

I believe we need to own our own trademark for our most successful and important gathering of Pythonistas in this part of the world. To do that, we need to move away from the word "PyCon."

We would like to know your thoughts on this.

[Maurice Ling]

Dear all

If the word "PyCon" is a problem and it appears that it will be a problem, then I support a change of name. 

Regards 

Maurice 

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[Irvan Putra]

Yeah, something like PAOCON, AsiaPy, EastPy, and so on.

By the way, I just realized PAO doesn't include Pacific in its name. Any explanation about that?

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[Tzu-ping Chung]

What are the rules exactly? IIUC, “Python” is also a registered trademark to the PSF, but EuroPython is considered appropriate. I wonder if there’s some process we need to go through and keep the name (or at least the PyCon part).

TP

[Iqbal Abdullah]

Good question TP.

Within trademark law, there is this thing called "classes". Classes separate what context a particular trademark is used in. 

For example, "Python" is registered as a trademark under the classes 009 (Downloadable Software) and 042 (Programming Language) while "PyCon" is under classes 035 (Community Outreach Services) and 041 (Education Services). Classes 035 and 041 are the context that we will use when we talk about conferences and educational events which PyCon is known for.

So although "Python" is a trademark, it is not registered under class 035 or 041 which means we can use it (or even register it) for that class as a trademark. That is why "EuroPython" can be registered, and in fact it is registered by the Euro Python Society under classes 041, 016, 035. You don't even have to ask for permission from the PSF if you want to since they don't have rights in those classes in the first place (although someone else might already have it, so we need to make it distinctive by adding more words to the trademark).

I'm really simplifying things here, as the class definitions and how trademarks work is much more detailed but that's the gist of it. If you're interested in trademarks, searching for stuff in the USPTO database might be fun!

[Iqbal Abdullah]

Well, by right you'll need to ask for permission to use the "PyCon" wordmark from the PSF Trademarks WG (which I am also co-chairing) before using it.

But since you follow the "PyCon" usage policy when you folks started using it, we've basically grandfathered you in, and as you pointed out no one has complained about it (yet).

The PSF Trademarks WG doesn't really go around policing the usage of its trademarks (we just don't have the resources for that) but we do try to fix things if we find something not right.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 at 10:28, Martin <martin.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

Whoa! I had no idea PyCon cannot be used as a name? We’ve been running PyCon Singapore for ages and we even have the domain pycon.sg - no one ever complained.

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[Krishna Kolli]

Yeah it makes sense that we can't use "PyCon" without permission from PSF. As PAO is a separate entity by itself, we can choose to register a new name. Like "PyAsia🐍"  or something like that with words "Python" and "Asia".

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[Dylan Jay]

On 30 Oct 2024, at 6:07 am, Irvan Putra <irvan...@python.or.id> wrote:

By the way, I just realized PAO doesn't include Pacific in its name. Any explanation about that?

Not sure about PAO but some reasons why it might be better to not include Pacific in the conference name would be

- Visas and flights make it almost impossible for AU/NZ to hold a conference that wants to invite the countries we currently include. It’s the same distance and cost to fly bangkok to Auckland as it is Bangkok to London. And I’ve seen first hand the painful process Thais have endure to get visas to go there.

- Asia sounds more inclusive and bigger even though technically it’s smaller than APAC. In the same way that Pycon EMEA doesn’t sound as big a deal as EuroPython. Asia is better branding I think.

 PythonAsia or AsiaPy sound like great conferences to me.

We should not get too hooked up on semantics on what asia means or APAC means. Former Australian PM’s have argued that Australia is part of Asia before.

PyConAPAC has a great history but none of that is lost by renaming I think.

 

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[Irvan Putra]

Sure, I asked just to get it clear. I am looking forward for the answer (to the question why only Asia, not Asia Pacific) to be in FAQ. Sorry for the tangent, let's get back to the topic.

I think as simple as PyAsia and PyAsiaCon could be registered. I am looking forward for the news of which one to be used by the community.

[Kumar Anirudha]

Hi Iqbal,

While it's wonderful that you wish to establish your own identity for
the event you’re organizing, I believe it is inappropriate to call it
‘Asia’ without including all Asian countries. You’re more than welcome
to choose any other name and form any organization that meets your
goals.

As for PyCon India, we do not share this approach and prefer to remain
independently associated with the PSF, continuing our operations as we
have since 2009. Please do not use ‘India’ or ‘Asia’ in your proposal.
We intend to maintain our role as the oldest and longest-running
Python community events in Asia and would not appreciate any
misrepresentation, especially in communications with the EuroPython or
PSF, that involves PyCon India or Asia in general.

Cheers,
Kumar Anirudha

[Nabarun Pal]

Hi,

Good to see a proposal like this. I appreciate the discussion around
trademarks and proper naming. However I think a few fundamentals
topics need a discussion before that.

- Is the organization supposed to be a local fork of PSF? That is how
the proposal sounds in the current state.
- I think having the word Asia in such an organization without having
a solid governance structure and representation from "all" countries
in the said geography is counter-intuitive and probably a little
misleading. I couldn't find any governance structure in the document
you shared. I strongly believe nailing down a good governance
structure helps a community thrive.
- How is the organization staff paid? Where is the revenue generated
from to fund expenses?

From the linked document.

> The Python Asia Organization is a non-profit organization based in Estonia which organizes Python Asia Conferences

Why is an organization focused on Asia registered in Estonia?

> The mission of the Python Asia Organization is to promote, protect, and advance the Python programming language, and to support and facilitate the growth of a diverse regional community of Python programmers within the East and Southeast Asia region.

Why are other regions in Asia not mentioned if the geography is Asia?

> To be the contact point between the PSF in the US and the EuroPython Society (EPS) in the EU

I am unable to understand why an organization in Asia should be a
contact point between PSF and EPS.

> To do that, we need to move away from the word "PyCon."

I don't think that is necessarily correct. The oldest PyCon in Asia
has been striving under the PyCon / PSF umbrella for 15 years.

One request, please open up the Google doc for comments. It makes for
a good avenue to comment on the proposal.

Best,
Nabarun

[Iqbal Abdullah]

Hi Nabarun and Kumar,

Thank you for your comments. As I have mentioned in my previous email, I will not respond to questions on PAO itself (PAO is no longer a proposal: It's something we have already made and launched) but to allow this thread to focus on the name of the conference in the future. There is no "proposal" in this email thread, but only 2 questions to my fellow community members.

Your questions are important though, and we will have separate documentation up in the future to answer these questions on GitHub or a website.

Having said that, I will respond this, because I feel it is VERY important:

1. PAO does not represent or intends to represent anyone. That is not in its mission nor in its objectives.

2. PAO is not a "fork" (a "fork" here is a parallel) of the PSF or intended to replace the PSF in Asia. It complements and works together with the PSF, and other groups around the world.

[Nabarun Pal]

Hi,

Thanks for replying to the email, although I will wait for answers to
my specific questions which are yet to be answered.

> PAO is no longer a proposal: It's something we have already made and launched

Why use the name Asia then? The organization is itself a misnomer and
a misrepresentation if all stakeholders weren't kept in loop *if* you
are using the name Asia in your organization.

Also, this is very confusing in that case. The email thread now sounds
to me like an announcement of a decision already made.

> PAO is not a "fork" (a "fork" here is a parallel) of the PSF or intended to replace the PSF in Asia. It complements and works together with the PSF, and other groups around the world.

Thanks for the clarification. The original email indeed sounded like a
fork since you mentioned disagreement with policies and moving away
from the word "PyCon".

---
Coming to your point, if you want opinions on your questions, you
should name the conference Py East+SouthEast Asia or something like
that which accurately represents the state of affairs.

Best,
Nabarun

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[Matt Lebrun]

Hello all,

There's some good insights shared in this thread regarding PAO.

Discord thread:
https://discord.com/channels/904229032651030568/1301325113425268767 

While I believe some more context about PAO needs to be easily accessible—I would like to echo my thoughts shared in the thread.

I recognize the reluctance or confusion with PAO having "Asia" in its name when it's not representative of all Python organizations in Asia nor all would like to be part of it.

However the name represents its mission—to be of service in growing communities in this side of the world.

We've had a similar conversation in the Philippines before, wherein other organizing groups raised concerns with us—Manila organizers—having Philippines in the name when we don't have representatives from organizers across the country. In a similar light—our mission—is in the name. It's a continuous and incremental process, but eventually we got to live up to it.

Best,

Matt

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[Micaela Reyes]

Hi APAC/Asia Community,

RE: The Purpose of PAO

Some important concerns were raised in the discord thread:
https://discord.com/channels/904229032651030568/1301325113425268767/1301404742983094282
https://discord.com/channels/904229032651030568/1301325113425268767/1301842105232134207

In short, the PSF is experiencing growing pains. The Python community is growing rapidly—potentially faster than the PSF, as a volunteer-driven organization, can fully support. 

We're at a point where we need to step up and help the PSF address regional needs in Asia.

To achieve this, we need a committed individual or group to rally our community across Asia, much like the founding members of PAO did.

PAO’s mission aligns with the PSF's, but with a focus on Asia. By working together rather than in isolation, we can solve challenges more effectively.

Best,

Micaela

[Manabu TERADA(PyConJp)]

Hello all,

In my opinion.

Since PyCon APAC began in 2010, it has provided an opportunity for
hosting events in the Asia-Pacific region. I myself attended the 2010
PyCon APAC, which inspired me to organize PyCon JP, and in 2013 I
chaired the PyCon APAC 2013 in Japan. Back then, no region other than
Singapore showed interest in hosting PyCon APAC, which made the
event's appeal and brand less significant. However, after hosting it
in Taiwan and Korea, we have succeeded in holding PyCon APAC annually
in the APAC region (particularly East Asia and Southeast Asia),
fostering collaboration across Asia through the event.

As a result of these activities, we have built connections with the
PSF, and I believe that more participants from Asia are now attending
PyCon US.

As Dylan pointed out, we have seen how difficult it is to incorporate
Oceania into our group. The name "APAC" presents some challenges, and
I can say from experience that explaining it at the PyCon US booth was
not easy.

In recent years, we have also seen interest from India in hosting
PyCon APAC, as well as members applying and participating as staff.
This has brought us closer to India as well.

The connections with the PSF have been established through our
activities, but I believe it was also a coincidence that the timing
aligned with the emergence of PyCons and communities across Asia.

However, I think there is still a distance between the PSF and Asia.
Our organization aims to strengthen Asia's presence, further increase
connections, and ensure that these activities continue sustainably.


2024年11月4日(月) 17:47 Micaela Reyes <codemic...@gmail.com>:

> To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/c7ac1472-541e-42cc-b13b-85362c17e954n%40googlegroups.com.



--
Board Member of PyCon JP Association
Manabu TERADA

[Sammy Fung]

Hi all,

I think PyAsia would be an attractive new event name for PAO, good feeling to replace PyCon APAC with PyAsia.

Yours Sincerely,
Sammy Fung
President, Open Source Hong Kong.
http://opensource.hk

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