Hope we have a pure technology conference for PyCon APAC

[Cynthia Xin]

In the past more than 10 years，we promote Python in China and Host the PyCon China to empower more than 200K Professional  Python developers. We love Python and want to connect every Pythonista on the Earth to share Coding experience with Python.  And we just focus on technology.

We found that the PyCon APAC is promoting some political topics. We think that PyCon APAC is a technical conference aimed at promoting the development of Python and should not involve any political elements.

If this topic is not canceled, we have to ask to cancel all of the Topics from the Python China User Group.

Hope you can give your decision to us as soon as possible. Thank you.

Cynthia Xin
the Orgnizor from PyCon China

[Staff Gi Soong Chee]

Pardon my ignorance. May I ask which part of the PyCon code of conduct does the speaker/topic specifically violate?

https://th.pycon.org/pages/code-of-conduct

I helped out for some years in the organisation of technical conferences such as FOSSASIA and PyCon SG/APAC. We occasionally do have politicians giving talks sometimes in their personal capacities because official roles aside, they are also humans with diverse interests/hobbies/talents who can bring diverse perspectives to enrich the learning, and these perfectly align with the principles of the conference's code of conduct:

- Being open. 

- Being respectful of differing viewpoints and experiences. 

I am puzzled as I personally do not find anything violating professionalism from the write-up of the talk and the speaker's bio, though I do not know the topic's details. Are we reading too much into it, or am I missing something glaring?

Thanks for any enlightenment. :)

Audrey Tang

Taiwan

Taiwan Digital Minister

Taiwan

Talk :

Digital Social Innovation: Assistive Intelligence: Alignment and Accountability

When we see "internet of things", let's make it an internet of beings. When we see "virtual reality", let's make it a shared reality. When we see "machine learning", let's make it collaborative learning. When we see "user experience", let's make it about human experience. When we hear "the singularity is near", let us remember: the Plurality is here

Au's Bio:

Audrey Tang is Taiwan's youngest minister headhunted by the President Tsai Ing-wen in 2016. Often referred to as a genius and a child prodigy, Audrey started a company at age 15, managing a team of developers and hackers who worked in the coding language Perl. Audrey was a digital adviser to Apple in 2014, where they helped develop Apple’s digital assistant, Siri. One of Audrey's most-publicized accomplishments was creating a frequently updated map of locations where Taiwan’s citizens could find face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic.

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[Iqbal Abdullah]

Hi Cynthia,

> In the past more than 10 years，we promote Python in China and Host the PyCon China to empower more than 200K Professional Python developers. We love Python and want to connect every Pythonista on the Earth to share Coding experience with Python. And we just focus on technology.
>
> We found that the PyCon APAC is promoting some political topics. We think that PyCon APAC is a technical conference aimed at promoting the development of Python and should not involve any political elements.
>

I have to admit I don't know what Audrey Tang wil speak about since
I've not seen the contents of his talk, but out of curiosity, what
parts of his talk do you think will be political? Are there any
specific topics that you would deem political and would not want to
have for a PyCon conference?

> If this topic is not canceled, we have to ask to cancel all of the Topics from the Python China User Group.
>
> Hope you can give your decision to us as soon as possible. Thank you.
>
> Cynthia Xin
> the Orgnizor from PyCon China
>

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Iqbal Abdullah
PyCon JP
http://www.pycon.jp/

[Tzu-ping Chung]

Off-topic, but I believe Audrey’s preferred pronoun is she/her :)

Iqbal Abdullah 在 2021年11月16日 星期二下午3:34:59 [UTC+8] 的信中寫道：

[Iqbal Abdullah]

Ah yes, thanks for pointing that out.

On Tue, 16 Nov 2021 at 16:46, Tzu-ping Chung <uran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Off-topic, but I believe Audrey’s preferred pronoun is she/her :)

I apologize to Audrey (if she somehow reads this later in the future).

> To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/328903c9-deba-42aa-aab7-bcf04223563cn%40googlegroups.com.

[sweemeng ng]

Here's my opinion as an outsider. Previous pycon in Malaysia is an organization that willing to goes into real world issues. What kind of community people are we if we don't involve and downright ignore the issues outside the technical world. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/CAPjFkSd2bq%2BLnwQt5bK4b6QPCeTSDNiamsX0%2BB-zM9P9VUG%2BDA%40mail.gmail.com.

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[Iqbal Abdullah]

Swee Meng,

Thanks for your thoughts, and I believe many of us reading this thread
up to this point might have strong opinions on this subject.

As I have asked above, I still don't understand what is not acceptable
from Cynthia's point of view concerning the talk that Audrey will be
giving. I believe we need to understand this first before we start on
a productive discussion.

[Cynthia Xin]

Hi All,

We think the political and government issues are complicated issues. 

As volunteers, we contribute to the Python Ecosystem. We only hope to learn knowledge and share experiences, so that more people who want to code with Python can join us to learn together.  

We can not participate in matters and risks beyond our control.

The key points we think will be the risks are: 

1. The speaker is a politician. we respect Taiwan’s experts but do not accept invitations to any politicians. This is a very important political issue.

2. Under the premise of the one-China principle. We can accept that the organizer will introduce all the speakers from Taiwan with Chinese Taipei (aka TPE) in accordance with past international practices. The introduction and use of the flag of the Republic of China (aka ROC) under the name of independent Taiwan will not be acceptable to us. If this point we cannot reach a consensus with the organizer. Then all speakers from China mainland will permanently withdraw from PyCon APAC.

Please help give us the feedback as soon as possible?  Thank you.


Kind Regards,

Cynthia

Iqbal Abdullah <iq...@pycon.jp> 于2021年11月16日周二 下午4:03写道：

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/CAPjFkSeXDJsjk%2ByRFLq%2Bu%2B1r3-_awErc_-2OdcRdpLuTFKVeTw%40mail.gmail.com.

[Staff Gi Soong Chee]

Thanks Ms Cynthia for the clarification. So it is not really a violation of the PyCon APAC code of conduct, but a decision to be made by the community or hosting country on issues related to political grounds.

I believe we are all volunteers in this PyCon APAC group. :)

Wrt point 2 on the usage of name and flag, it seems that there is some existing international practice eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Taipei_at_the_Olympics 

Wrt point 1 on "do not accept invitations to any politicians", please let me/us understand the situation better. So China Pythonistas do not attend any technical conference where there is involvement of any politician from any country, including PyCons held abroad and locally in China?

This point is important so that going forward when different countries organise future PyCons especially PyCon APAC, as a community we are aware and can reach consensus with respect to such issues. 

Thanks! :)

 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/CAE2%3DBfGN4rW31%2BOnR2zS9Oy7j_MhXuXf-2geLddbY1EgSp-UpQ%40mail.gmail.com.

[Iqbal Abdullah]

Thank you for the clarification Cynthia.

Politics is a complicated issue and it is beyond me personally to
comment on what is "right" or "wrong". I will leave this specific
issue to the hosts, the community and the CN team to decide on how to
proceed next.

But let me raise one point here which I believe is important that all
of the other organizers within our region also will see, but most
importantly our friends in TH to also see: I think it is unreasonable,
harsh and I am also disappointed that CN has decided to bring this
matter only 4 days before conference day.

Cynthia, you, like Georgi, is one of us, and you understand better
than everyone else how difficult it is to prepare and run a
conference. We all work as volunteers, unpaid and we more often than
not don't get the moral support that we need (I think "deserve" here
is a better word) because the general community often takes it for
granted that there will always be "someone else" who does it for them.
So if we don't support each other and make our own work easier, who
will? We shouldn't be sabotaging ourselves.

PyCon TH has been open about it's speakers lineup and we had several
online discussions via Slack or Zoom in the past few months which the
CN team should take advantage of and bring any concerns to light.
Given enough time, maybe something can be done. Even in the event if
some party decides to pull out, there will be time for the organizers
to still do something about it.

Whatever the outcome is, I would like to mention here that I wish the
organizing team for PyCon APAC TH, and it's chair Georgi all the best,
hang in there, you have our support, we love you all and let's have a
wonderful PyCon APAC!

[Cynthia Xin]

Hi  Georgi,

I have to say thank you so much for your great contribution to PyCon APAC and US. 

We have had several conversations, we have the same dream to promote Python, I think we will continue to do this meaningful thing, together in the future.

As the organizer of the conference, I can fully understand how difficult will be caused by the sudden changes in the early stage of the conference? However, I contacted you as soon as I found out, just hoping that things will not go worse.

Please believe that being able to communicate with Python developers around the world is our goal for many years. We have done many years of work in order to be able to communicate with everyone on the same stage.

I believe because of you we will have a wonderful PyCon APAC 2021.

Best Wish.

Cynthia 

Iqbal Abdullah <iq...@pycon.jp> 于2021年11月17日周三 上午7:40写道：

[Georgi Ker]

Hi Cynthia and everyone else in PyCon APAC group,

Apologies for the late reply. There are obviously more tasks happening right now as the event draws closer to the actual date. 

As the conference lead representing PyCon Thailand, we have been updating the APAC organisers regularly throughout our entire preparation for the conference. 

The pandemic has taken a toll on everyone including PyCon organisers. We took the initiative to invite organisers from each PyCon in Asia Pacific, curate your own speakers and send to us without going through the CFP process. This is to allow PyCon organisers who didn’t get to hold their event this and previous years, a chance to participate without going through the tedious process in setting up a conference. It also allow us to showcase the diverse Python community from each respective APAC region.

We are really grateful to see such great response in talk submissions and immense help and support from so many of you. It truly shows the diversified Python community and team spirit. 

Our finalized keynote speakers were confirmed 4 months prior to the event. We have informed the PyCon APAC group here and information were published on our website since Jun 2, 2021.
Confirmed list of speakers and posters were also published about 1-2 months ago. 

We have been extremely diligent to respect the choice of names each person choose, their pronouns, and how they would like to be represented. If you look at our marketing campaign, no speakers are left out from our posters.

We are 3 days away from the event. Marketing and campaigns advertised are like water splashed out from the bucket. Almost impossible to retrieve them back. We regret to see PyCon China contesting against our decision for our choices of keynote speakers and how we presented the our speakers. 

We sincerely appreciate the contributions of the developers from China to the Python community and was hoping to let other attendees from the APAC regions know about this too. Unfortunately, our choice conflicts. I will respect PyCon China if you would like to retract your participation from PyCon APAC this year. We hope we will be able to work together in future. But at this moment, the show must go on.

Once again, thank you all PyCon APAC organisers here for supporting us and contributing to different section of the program. 

We look forward to meeting everyone this weekend. 

Pythonically,

Georgi

[Younggun Kim]

Hi fellow organizers,

First of all, I thank you all for sharing your concern/thoughts here. We all know that this is a complex, complicated, and difficult issue as it involves many other aspects around it.

All inputs are valuable and they will nurture our community better place.

Several years ago, a feud between KR and JP govt got extremely tense and was spreading to its citizens.

And one person from JP (I won't mention the name here) proposed a talk for PyCon KR and it was accepted.

While I was grateful for such a hard decision he made, much worried about a possible 'accident' during the conference at the same time.

AFAIK, no maleficence happened but I had more confidence in our community as we both proudly transcend whatever political.

I also attended PyCon JP two months later from PyCon KR that year. I was treated the same way there.

Our situation may differ depending on where we belong, we are still one community as long as we communicate with.

This might different story but I just want to share it with you all.

Sincerely,

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/23e03e01-48af-4a63-8b0b-181de766c64dn%40googlegroups.com.

[Cynthia Xin]

Hi Georgi，

We fully understand how difficult you face， and we will continue to promote Python in the future.  But just for Python, just for technology. 

For PyCon APAC 2021, I think you and the organizer team have the decision, Please help delate all information from PyChina and  PyCon China on all channels. 

 

We could schedule a meeting to sync,  if you think necessary.   Thank you.

Kind Regards,

Cynthia

吴京京 <wjmc...@gmail.com> 于2021年11月17日周三 下午9:55写道：

We are a group of people who love Python and sharing, which is why we are here. We want the whole process to be pure and clean and free of politics.

In this sharing, Audrey Tang is Taiwan's Youngest minister Headhunted by the President Tsai Ing-wen, who is very politically biased. Taiwan is a part of China, there is no disagreement or compromise on this point, especially the current political situation is so severe, we hope pyCon can recognize the political situation and issues and exclude Audrey, otherwise I will leave the conference immediately.

259275467 <2592...@qq.com>于2021年11月17日 周三上午6:21写道：

Regarding the description on the website,'Audrey Tang is Taiwan's youngest minister headhunted by the President Tsai Ing-wen in 2016. Often referred to as a genius and a child prodigy, Audrey started a company at age 15, managing a team of developers and hackers who worked in the coding language Perl. Audrey was a digital adviser to Apple in 2014, where they helped develop Apple's digital assistant, Siri. One of Audrey's most-publicized accomplishments was creating a frequently updated map of locations where Taiwan's citizens could find face masks during the COVID-19 pandemic.' Taiwan belongs to China, it is just a region, without a national flag, and without any internationally recognized president. This is recognized by the United Nations and also recognized internationally. PyCon is a technical conference , technical experts from Taiwan can share, but if politicians are invited and improper descriptions are involved, we can only withdraw from this conference. 

------------------ Original ------------------

From: 李者璈 <lizhea...@gmail.com>

Date: Wed, Nov 17, 2021 0:56 AM

To: Staff Gi Soong Chee <gi.soo...@dhs.sg>

Cc: Cynthia Xin <cynth...@gmail.com>, Iqbal Abdullah <iq...@pycon.jp>, sweemeng ng <swee...@gmail.com>, Tzu-ping Chung <uran...@gmail.com>, PyCon Organizers APAC <pycon-orga...@googlegroups.com>, wjmcater <wjmc...@gmail.com>, zhangjintao <zhang...@apache.org>, 259275467 <2592...@qq.com>

Subject: Re: Hope we have a pure technology conference for PyCon APAC

Hello Staff Gi Soong Chee

I'm Manjusaka, co-chair of the PyChina. I think I can represent all of the organizers of the PyChina and all of our speakers.

About Point 2. Taiwan with no ROC Flag or Chinese Taipei with no ROC Flag is acceptable. I believe we can reach a consensus on this point.

About Point 1. 

> please let me/us understand the situation better. So China Pythonistas do not attend any technical conference where there is involvement of any politician from any country, including PyCons held abroad and locally in China?

China Mainland and Taiwan have historic problems together. We don't want to make this problem more difficult and more complicated. For us, We don't care about whether the speaker is a politician or not who is from another country or region. But for the politician from Taiwan, we need to confirm one truth that the One-China policy(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-China_policy) and the 1992 Consensus(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Consensus) are acceptable for him/her. So I think if we don't want to make this circumstance harder and more difficult. the best way is to stop inviting any politicians from both China Mainland and Taiwan. I guarantee that there will not be any politicians or controversial speakers from the China mainland.

If we can't reach a consensus on this point, I will be sorry for that we have to say Yes, All of the speakers from the PyChina will quit the PyCon APAC permanently

李者璈 & Zheaoli

Email: lizhea...@gmail.com

Github: https://github.com/Zheaoli

Staff Gi Soong Chee <gi.soo...@dhs.sg> 于2021年11月16日周二 下午8:57写道：

Thanks Ms Cynthia for the clarification. So it is not really a violation of the PyCon APAC code of conduct, but a decision to be made by the community or hosting country on issues related to political grounds.

I believe we are all volunteers in this PyCon APAC group. :)

Wrt point 2 on the usage of name and flag, it seems that there is some existing international practice eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Taipei_at_the_Olympics 

Wrt point 1 on "do not accept invitations to any politicians", please let me/us understand the situation better. So China Pythonistas do not attend any technical conference where there is involvement of any politician from any country, including PyCons held abroad and locally in China?

This point is important so that going forward when different countries organise future PyCons especially PyCon APAC, as a community we are aware and can reach consensus with respect to such issues. 

Thanks! :)

 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/pycon-organizers-apac/CAE2%3DBfGN4rW31%2BOnR2zS9Oy7j_MhXuXf-2geLddbY1EgSp-UpQ%40mail.gmail.com.