[GAME] ParaLands

[Lukas Schüller]

Hey,
I recently started messing with PuzzleScript again, and this is what came out:
http://www.puzzlescript.net/play.html?p=1fa8e206e54b1a66926bec98d3df63cd
Some of the puzzles may be a bit tricky, but I hope I got the difficulty curve right this time. Hope you enjoy! As usual, any feedback is welcome.
- Lukas

[Stephen Lavelle]

oh gosh I really like the idea of parallel sokobans (where the initial states are the same)

are there too many types of trapdoors? so many ways to fill holes...maybe it's ok though...

I can't wait to solve level 4 - it seems fun so far, I'll try more later

nice so far as I've played!

:)

S

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[Stephen Lavelle]

oh you want norepeat_action (see http://www.puzzlescript.net/Documentation/prelude.html )

[Stephen Lavelle]

all the different button/block types confused me in level 5 - I solved it by trial and error

really enjoyed level 6.

this game is neat :)

(for the dedicated trap doors that just disappear after stepping on them once, do you think it would be better to have them be a brown colour or something neutral?)

[CHz]

Yeah I solved 5 by trial and error too. I actually had to come back to it a second time and really fool around to figure out why the doors were opening some times but not others.

Nice stuff so far, I'm stuck on 7 at the moment but still whacking at it.

[CHz]

I'm up to 15 now, but I had to skip 8 & 10 because I have a singular inability to solve multiple ice block construction puzzles like those. I don't know what it is about them that makes them impossible for me to visualize and work out, but that's just my life. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Coming back to 5, I think the problems I had with it stem from three things: (1) solving it logically it requires a much deeper understanding of how everything exists in one or both dimensions than the puzzles before it and even ones after it, (2) the switch & block configuration is complex enough that it's not easy to immediately tell why putting blocks over them in one way works while it doesn't in another way, and (3) it's just so darn easy to randomly swap blocks around until it works without understanding why. The only reason I know it behaves the way it does is because I went back to specifically test it and make observations. So if that puzzle ends up being a sticking point for more folks than just us two, you may want to look at figuring out how to guide the player into those concepts more easily, maybe with a whole extra puzzle even.

7 was cute, but the gimmick there is kind of random I think. There's not really indication that it should work; you just have to be like "okay well nothing else works so I wonder what happens if I do this silly thing," and then it works and you're like "sure, why not."

I loved 9. <3

I'm not liking the enemy puzzles as much but I can't really articulate why at the moment. 12 was pretty fun though.

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 8:10:10 AM UTC-7, Lukas Schüller wrote:

[Chris Pickel]

I had trouble with 5 too. I think my problem is that up to that point, I'd been imagining that things in the alternate dimension didn't exist or affect the current dimension, but solo-switches can and do. I first solved it without understanding why, but the understanding I came to later was:

Solo door: must press all omni-switches in some dimension, must press all solo-switches in current dimension

Omni door: must press all omni-switches in some dimension, must press all solo-switches in both dimensions

I think I would've appreciated a level with just solo-switches (but both doors) before throwing an omni-switch in. I think I was also confused because there's no (special) link between omni-doors and omni-switches or between solo-doors and solo-switches. Learning the tricky lesson (switches need to be pressed in the alternate dimension) separately could have been better.

I've been enjoying the game in general, up to X now. The aha moment in IX was really good, though given how long it took me to get there I'm not sure I'd say I loved the level :)

I was confused by VIII because it seemed to be too easy—it's solvable without switching. Is this the intended solution?

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[Lukas Schüller]

Thanks everyone, really happy you seem to be mostly enjoying this so far :)

I've just made an update that contains a few things:

- Added a level before V, because you're totally right about that. Hope this one is a decent preparation.
- Added a level before the final one, mostly for symmetry reasons.
- Added norepeat_action, good point
- Changed VII (now VIII) so you now see the gimmick in action. I'm not sure about this change, though. I did it because, as you said, the trick is kind of random, but I guess just giving it away might trivialize the puzzle? (I'm not really sure about that level at all, anyway. I don't think any other level uses that trick, so maybe I should just remove it altogether)
- Two bugfixes with balls

Oh, that thing in VIII (now IX) is totally unintended. Not sure if there's a way to fix it :/

Stephen, do you mean the omni-trapdoors? I kind of wanted to stick to the orange/blue colour scheme for everything, but maybe it's less readable that way? Not sure.

[Stephen Lavelle]

ah, only now that I replay do I see that 2-colour trap doors can be reinforced and made permanently solid by having a block of the OTHER colour on them in the parallel universe

"do you mean the omni-trapdoors?"

I don't know what an omni-trapdoor is.

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[Lukas Schüller]

Yeah, I meant the two-coloured trapdoors. Not entirely sure about that mechanic, but I feel like there's no way for those to be entirely intuitive.

[Stephen Lavelle]

Yeah I agree.  If it was a 3D game and the playing area was 2-sided, maybe it would make sense to have a trap-door not fall if something was underneath it.  

I can say that even though the start of one of the levels was to teach you the behaviour, I did not learn it then.  It's not the end of the world though :)

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 2:59 PM, 'Lukas Schüller' via PuzzleScript <puzzle...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Yeah, I meant the two-coloured trapdoors. Not entirely sure about that mechanic, but I feel like there's no way for those to be entirely intuitive.

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[Lukas Schüller]

Okay, made another quick fix for Game of Marbles. I hope this time both universes are required.

[CHz]

17 is solvable without using the switch/door by using the exact same technique as 14, I think this probably wasn't intentional:

Added a level before V, because you're totally right about that. Hope this one is a decent preparation.

Seems solid enough, but obviously I can't really evaluate how it teaches new players the concepts and how to deal with 6 any more. I'm still a little worried about how easy it is to brute force 6 but that's just a feeling.

Changed VII (now VIII) so you now see the gimmick in action. I'm not sure about this change, though. I did it because, as you said, the trick is kind of random, but I guess just giving it away might trivialize the puzzle? (I'm not really sure about that level at all, anyway. I don't think any other level uses that trick, so maybe I should just remove it altogether)

If it were my game, I would probably cut it for that reason. It's always your call, though.

[Connorses]

FWIW I like Level 6 ("Dimensional Gates") because it utilizes every single door rule. You have to organize the pieces so that you have one piece left over to fill in the hole, and it's really satisfying to use every piece to solve a puzzle (unless you didn't understand how you solved it).

I really liked the fixed Level 9 ("Game of Marbles" ). It was hard and I had to rewind a bunch it to figure out all the steps but I still felt accomplished when I beat it.

Level 10 (Fixing a Hole) is driving me nuts and I will have to bang my head against it again at a later date. This game is wonderful.

There's one thing that seems counter intuitive to me: omni-trapdoors stay in place if there is a block on them in the universe that the player is not in. How is that block keeping the trapdoor open? It's all backwards! It seems like the most logical rule for an omni-trapdoor would be that it will only collapse if it has something on it in both universes.

[Lukas Schüller]

Thanks, glad you're enjoying it so far!

CHz: Oh, that's a good point. And actually not how I intended 14 to be solved either. I think I know what to do about these levels, though.

FWIW I like Level 6 ("Dimensional Gates") because it utilizes every single door rule. You have to organize the pieces so that you have one piece left over to fill in the hole, and it's really satisfying to use every piece to solve a puzzle (unless you didn't understand how you solved it).

Yay, that was what I was going for :) But yeah, it probably doesn't work as an introductory level for gates, so adding 5 was a good idea.
 

I really liked the fixed Level 9 ("Game of Marbles" ). It was hard and I had to rewind a bunch it to figure out all the steps but I still felt accomplished when I beat it.

I actually just found another unintended solution to this that again doesn't require switching universes, but it should be fixable by moving the omni ball one space down, though it breaks symmetry a bit. If you used both universes, I'm pretty confident that your solution is intended though. Glad you liked it.
 

There's one thing that seems counter intuitive to me: omni-trapdoors stay in place if there is a block on them in the universe that the player is not in. How is that block keeping the trapdoor open? It's all backwards! It seems like the most logical rule for an omni-trapdoor would be that it will only collapse if it has something on it in both universes.

Yeah, the omni-trapdoor is tricky. My line of thinking (that is currently implemented) was as follows:
- Any omni-object is the same objects "living" in both universes at the same time.
- Once an actor (i. e. player or enemy) steps on a trapdoor, it is primed (This also means that currently, you could push a ball onto a trapdoor and off again without anything happening).
- A primed trapdoor drops as soon as there's no more weight on top. For an omni-trapdoor, since it "sees" both universes, this means that the trapdoor can't drop as long as there's a weight in the alternate dimension.
I agree that there are several other ways to see this. I didn't go with your way because though this might lead to some interesting interactions with omni-enemies, having something close to a one-way trapdoor seems more widely usable when designing levels to me. The other way that would make sense to me would be that it just drops as soon as any actor leaves it, possibly dropping whatever is on the other side into the pit. The longer I think about it, the more viable this option seems to me.
Currently the only level that uses this specific mechanic is 8, and honestly I'm inclined to just throw that one into a fire. Still, it's a question that eventually needs resolving, so any ideas on that are very appreciated :)

[Connorses]

I admit I like that explanation for the trapdoors now that I've heard it. I have said before on this forum that it's usually better to give the player more options for solving puzzles, so I guess I'm okay with the current version. The game does a good job of demonstrating it, so it's not a big problem.

By the way, is the death animation when an enemy touches you DROD inspired?

On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 9:10:10 AM UTC-6, Lukas Schüller wrote:

[Lukas Schüller]

Heh, yeah, kind of. I've copied some stuff from my demake from a few years ago because I'm lazy :P

[Lukas Schüller]

Okay, finally made another small update. Tried to fix "Game of Marbles", "Stalking across Universes" and "Hope for the Hopeless". Cut "Trapdoor Tricks" for the reasons stated above. Also turned the final level into a bonus level, because it seemed rather trial-and-errory to me.

And by the way, happy birthday PuzzleScript! :D Amazing that it's three years already. Thanks Stephen for making it as well as everybody for creating those great games with it!

[and...@gmail.com]

Any hint for the final bonus level? i just can't see how to stop the chap at the bottom of the map from crossing the once-only bridge 4 steps away from him and thus rendering the level unfinishable.

[Lukas Schüller]

Man, took me a while to remember how this level worked. Some observations, in order of increasing spoileriness:

1. After opening the gates, the only way to avoid the bottom monster dropping the trapdoor is to not move right of your current column anymore.

2. The monster on the left needs to push the ball into the pit.

3. Since you can only move in your column, the only way to get the guy to do that is to push a ball and thus stall one turn.

4. You have to prepare a setup that lets you manipulate the monsters to push the ball into position for you.

5. (not really an observation, but a hint) You don't need any monster to block the ball's path.

You may already be aware of all of this, so here's the point that is kind of cheap since it requires slightly deeper knowledge of the puzzlescript engine / how this game works:

While the single-universe monsters move before the multi-universe monsters, both of them decide where to go before any movement happens. Monsters will never try to move onto a space already occupied by another monster. This can be taken advantage of to make a monster step somewhere where it usually wouldn't.

More specifically,

use a single-universe monster to block the multi-universe monster's up direction. Twice in a row.

Hope this helps,

Lukas

[and...@gmail.com]

Thanks for the detailed spoiler-free reply Lukas! hint number three did it. i just couldn't figure out how to stay in that column and keep the monster at the bottom from moving up. i must have played around with that level for about three weeks waiting for the eureka moment. doh!

A great fun game, many thanks. Andy.

[Joel Fox]

In the level CHz made a gif of (previously #17, now revised and #16 I think), I still did not use the door/switch, but instead used the trick that the omni-enemy cannot go on a single-color bridge (block in a pit), so I just made a bridge and stepped over it to give myself enough space to complete the level

[Joel Fox]

• Just finished the game, it's fantastic!  I found the bonus level challenging and fair.  For level 16, perhaps you could make the inside pits into walls?  I didn't look for the intended solution though so maybe that breaks it.