Re: Romanian Terminologies

36 views
Skip to first unread message

Christian Tzurcanu

unread,
Apr 6, 2014, 4:47:31 PM4/6/14
to Andy Chirculescu, public-...@googlegroups.com
Dear Prof. Chirculescu,

answer is inlined:

On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:45 PM, Andy Chirculescu <andy_chi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Christian,
From the most recent message, I see  you have a "hard time collaboration" with some persons about your project.

I have a hard time because people that should use the project output seemingly do not see any value in it. Your answer confirms the same opinion on your part.
Some of the students felt otherwise and did a lot of volunteer work. I am happy to say that this personal project became a collaborative project.
The correct quote would be: "hard time collaborating" [..] "in a transparent manner". From this point on our conversation will become public at: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!categories/public-witness 


But, I do not understand what do you want me to do. And Pierre Sprumont couldn't explain me either.

Your answer shows lack of interest. It tells me you did not try/want to understand. The 3 points that I have exposed were in simple, clear English and you did not ask any questions related to the meaning of the words nor the intent of any specific point. I will even restate the same points in other words as a last resort (below).
Prof. Pierre Sprumont is not the best source for the general strategies of SMP nor for the detailed tasks. (I am.)

Repeating the same 3 points:

I am sorry you did not find understand the first 3 collaboration possibilities that I have exposed.  

1: Try our present implementation of SMP 2D Navigator: http://sliced.ro/smp/nav2d.php#0.406/-4.349/-62.121 and comparative: http://sliced.ro/smp/2xvnav2d.php Tell us if this is useful for teaching anatomy and how we can improve it. Tutorial: http://sliced.ro/blog/sapiens-navigator-2d-human-anatomy-layer-double-panel-and-atlas-2d-video-presentation/

1. (in other words) 2D and 3D Navigator was started in order to help anatomy professors to teach anatomy and even map new terms, images on the human body. If no professor finds any use for 2D Navigator, and has no idea on how we can make it usable for imparting knowledge, I am afraid we toiled for nothing. Is there any feedback you can give from your Anatomy Professor position related to this product?

2: A first translation of TA into Romanian is done, but it was not systematized because Prof. Sprumont (FIPAT) has not provided us with the cases for every Latin word. A more systematic translation has to re-commence as soon as we acquire this data and will have ability to generate automatic proposals for new translation for La->En and La->Ro. You may browse the present translations at http://sliced.ro/smp/ontology.php#browse . If you find knowledgeable people or you want to help yourself, we can open our present database for updates. (of course: credit will be given to the updaters for each term.)

2: We are opening TA, TH, and TE databases for better Romanian translation. TA and TH have already a first version done by our team. If anyone wants to better translate, will get credit for it. This includes you as an authoritative Romanian terms related to Anatomy. 
In parallel, we will program a system that will propose translations for new terms for En, Ro from a Latin source as well as a La, Ro from an English source. A larger correctly-translated database will improve the synthetic proposals.
 
3: If you like what we do: spread the news: We have a hard time collaborating with Romanian authorities in a transparent manner. Examples: Prof. Ispas (Anatomy - TA), Prof. Filipoiu (Anatomy), Prof. Hinescu (Histology - TH). If you know of people that want to help advancing the mapping of the human body (and related semantics in Romanian), please tell them of the SMP.

3: This part is no longer applicable. It is clear that you are not passionate about SMP since you stated you do not understand the development related to Romanian. If this will change, I hope you will let me know.

 
Have a nice day,
AC

Thank you for your time. I did appreciate the fact that you answered quickly and in English.
Christian Tzurcanu, SMP
 
On Friday, April 4, 2014 10:41 PM, Christian Tzurcanu <christian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Prof. Chirculescu,

I can see several avenues for collaboration, but I am open to your ideas as well. As you can probably tell, we lack authoritative medical and academically involved leadership for the Romanian part of the project. We would welcome your advice.

My present proposals:
  1. Try our present implementation of SMP 2D Navigator: http://sliced.ro/smp/nav2d.php#0.406/-4.349/-62.121 and comparative: http://sliced.ro/smp/2xvnav2d.php Tell us if this is useful for teaching anatomy and how we can improve it. Tutorial: http://sliced.ro/blog/sapiens-navigator-2d-human-anatomy-layer-double-panel-and-atlas-2d-video-presentation/
2D and 3D Navigator was started in order to help anatomy professors to teach anatomy and even map new terms, images on the human body. If no professor finds any use for 2D Navigator, and has no idea on how we can make it usable for imparting knowledge, I am afraid we toiled for nothing.

2:  
  1. A first translation of TA into Romanian is done, but it was not systematized because Prof. Sprumont (FIPAT) has not provided us with the cases for every Latin word. A more systematic translation has to re-commence as soon as we acquire this data and will have ability to generate automatic proposals for new translation for La->En and La->Ro. You may browse the present translations at http://sliced.ro/smp/ontology.php#browse . If you find knowledgeable people or you want to help yourself, we can open our present database for updates. (of course: credit will be given to the updaters for each term.)
  2. If you like what we do: spread the news: We have a hard time collaborating with Romanian authorities in a transparent manner. Examples: Prof. Ispas (Anatomy - TA), Prof. Filipoiu (Anatomy), Prof. Hinescu (Histology - TH). If you know of people that want to help advancing the mapping of the human body (and related semantics in Romanian), please tell them of the SMP.
Thank you for your quick answer,
ct, smp

On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 7:12 PM, Andy Chirculescu <andy_chi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Christian,
Fortunately, I cannot complain that I have nothing to do and I really have a lot. I didn't understand exactly which could  my help consist in ?

What do you exactly want ?
Basic qus translation

 1. Do you want to translate TA from Latin or from English or from another language (an already done translation) ?

2. Do you want to perform an automatic translation ?
Best wishes,
Andy Chirculescu


On Friday, April 4, 2014 3:14 AM, Christian Tzurcanu <christian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Prof. Andy Remus Marius Chirculescu,

Today is the 4th of April, more than a month from your chosen time mark. Does this mean you are not interested in helping anymore? Please let us know within a week or your answer will be inferred from the mere facts.

Thank you for your time,
Christian Tzurcanu, SMP

On Sun, Feb 16, 2014 at 5:08 PM, Andy Chirculescu <andy_chi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I have a very busy period now, to finish a paper, to review 2 papers for a journal, to prepare 2 talks for two meeting in Paris on Martisor.
We'll talk better after 3rd of March.
Best,
Andy Ch


On Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:39 PM, Christian Tzurcanu <christian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Prof. Andy Remus Marius Chirculescu,

I will answer each issue since you have offered to help. Also include Prof. Sprumont in this discussion. I hope he will not mind.

Dear Christian,
Thank you for the message and details included.
Here are my comments and queries on it / in red:

There is a lot to be said... 
Yes, I agree. First, who are you ? Which is your age, qualification, profession, whom are you working for a.s.o.
I am currently volunteering full time (and then some) for SMP.

I am the project lead for "Sapiens Mapping Project"
what is exactly meaning ? who initiated it? who is responsible for ? who is funding that ?
The project is defined by its deliverables. Please visit the free applications released. I initiated the project back in 2010. Nobody is funding. Volunteers are croudsourcing.

and a volunteer myself since we offer our work in the interest of Medical Science - what is exactly meaning ?
It simply means we are trying to help the advance the Medical Science to the best of our qualifications and time constrains.

and our products are free.
We probably hold the most extensive resources in morphological terminologies (by collaboration with FIPAT and Prof. Pierre Sprumont) - how ? have you the legal right to use them ? They are available to be bought from the publisher
We have the permission from Prof. Sprumont from FIPAT’s side to publish these terminologies using Internet and mobile technologies.

You will find TA (Terminologia Anatomica) in 8 languages: in my knowledge, TA is one: in Latin and English
To my knowledge good/reliable translations have been done for Japanese, I believe Prof. Sprumont mentioned also usable (not perfect) translations for Portuguese/Brazilian, Spanish, Russian. We had opportunity to acquire data for Japanese, Portuguese, Spanish. We worked towards a Romanian for TA. It is not a good translation yet. The other languages are just gross approximations and that is stated in the settings tab of the SMP ontology application.

Loredana Cirstea has translated it into Romanian about one year ago.
Who is that lady?  
I believe this has been answered below.

We have not had a peer review yet. (We will re-translate it on our new methodology, then present it to review)
There is also a iPhone and Android app with it.
Sorry, but these are not academic resources
We hope they will become as true and exact as any academic resource upon improvement.

We also have all 3 FIPAT terminologies here (En only):
about 20.000 terms. all digitized by our project
The TA (the 3 parts) is sold also on CD in digital format.
We do not plan to sell. Data compiled by us is available at https://github.com/ctzurcanu/smp

Since Loredana Cirstea (6th year med student) which University ? where from ?

is now in charge of the terminologies subproject, - who invested her with this ‘charge’? it is quite a responsability !
As stated: the terminologies subproject is of our project (SMP). I invested her with this heavy task. She will answer any questions related to this area of SMP. And she will contact you shortly since you have offered to help.

she will keep in touch with you should you want to contribute. She is presently preparing her graduation thesis at Carol Davila UMF Bucharest
graduation thesis at CDU became unfortunately a matter of other criteria than scientific standards,
That part we all agree with. Unfortunately.

on “Algorithm of translation in the Romanian language for the Terminologia Histologica and APIs for a controlled vocabulary”.
Who is (are) the superviser(s) ? Has she any expertise in the field ? Again, it is quite a responsability, not a game to play on iPhone when waiting for the bus.  

Coordinator: Conf. Univ. Dr. Luminița Iliuță, Head of the “Medical Informatics and Biostatistics” Department at U.M.F. “Carol Davila”
Tutor: Asist. Univ. Dr. Marius Rac-Albu from the “Medical Informatics and Biostatistics” Department
Signed and stamped document with thesis title, coordinator and tutor:

She has attempted collaboration with the “Cellular and Molecular Medicine. Human Development Medicine” Discipline but the Head of the Discipline refused it, considering that they do not have expertise in this particular instance of making the Terminologia Histologica computable. Therefore, collaboration was started with the “Medical Informatics and Biostatistics” Department.

As you can see in the Thesis methods document, she is researching the TH terms in current Romanian publications, with bibliographical reference. After compiling a version based on term frequency, specialised histological advice will be needed and requested. The next step after this will be peer review from FIPAT members.
The mobile application is not a game. If has been filed under Medical and Reference categories.

She will contact you related to any recommendations you may provide.
I cannot provide any recommendation to people contacted by e-mail, as mine is very popular
I am sorry… We mostly collaborate by email and electronic documents. The project is about internet technologies and scientific data pertinent to this medium.

Just let me know that you want to help in this matter.
Yes, I am always happy to help in a honest matter
There were already a lot of conversations with UMF Carol Davila's Histologists who were not interested to help. But she needs detailed histological peer review.
They probably didn’t know such a Terminology exists and it is not an interesting aspect for that reason.  
It seems they knew and they considered making a Romanian official version a very needed resource. Proof:

Mail Prof. Eugen Radu:
Dear Mrs Cirstea,

I am very sorry for such a long delay in answering you. My schedule has been quite erratic for the last few weeks and this is not even an exceptional situation. Thus, I hope you will understand why I decided not to answer your kind invitation of coordinating your graduation thesis: I really fear I will not be able to ensure an even pace and meet deadlines.

Having said that, I would like to congratulate you for participating in the project of Terminologia translation. I think it is a much needed resource and a large number of further scientific endeavours would benefit of its successful completion. Although I'm not an IFAA member, I would be interested in reviewing the current version of Terminologia Histologica, at first just to get an idea about the role I could play and the time required for making a contribution.

Best regards,
Eugen Radu

However Prof. Eugen Radu did not want to further collaborate when he found out that the collaboration will be fully-transparent. We can produce that proof too.

Prof. Andrei Motoc (Romanian Society of Anatomists) was contacted with respect to TA translation in Romanian in more than one occasion. He has not returned an answer. (As we know he was in charge of TA official Romanian translation).

Our project also holds license for use for VHP. Do you ? Me too, for many years ! So, what ? Which way can this help translate a book ?
We have corroborated the labeled (vectorized) images from VKH with TA in multiple languages. You have been invited to see this work at SMP 2D Navigator app.

Also Visible Korean Human (VKH) and we are negotiating for the Visible Chinese.   
I should be not happy with the Chinese as it might come from convicted for political crimes.
I have no comment in the matter. The Chinese have not answered yet in a consistent form.

Using VKH we have developed SMP 2D Navigator:  what is that ?
I have no talent for explaining a visual web application. You are invited to try it. We also have 2 video presentations of it at: http://sliced.ro/blog/sapiens-navigator-2d-human-anatomy-layer-video-presentation/


For more info about our project: http://sliced.ro/blog/  
Sorry, but I do not collect scientific information from Internet, as anybody can paint a site as wished.  
It is simply information about the proceedings of the project, demos, links to our free products. 

Related to any kind of collaboration: the project has a very high transparency standard. All emails that are related to the academic papers are also sent to a “public witness” address that discloses the contents to:
We hope you are in accord with us regarding the need for transparency on these matters.

Thank you for your time and understanding,
Christian Tzurcanu, SMP



On Tue, Feb 11, 2014 at 8:54 PM, Andy Chirculescu <andy_chi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Christian,
I attach here my concerns related to the matter.
Best,
Andy Ch


On Saturday, February 8, 2014 8:50 PM, Christian Tzurcanu <christian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Prof. Chirculescu,

to answer:


On Sat, Feb 8, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Andy Chirculescu <andy_chi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Dear Christian,
obviously I am I. I am still working with Prof. Morris. I also know well Prof Pierre Sprumont.

Prof. Sprumont referred to you as "A. Chirculescu" so I just had to make sure :)
 
Who are you and what  are you exactly dealing with ?

There is a lot to be said... 

I am the project lead for "Sapiens Mapping Project" and a volunteer myself since we offer our work in the interest of Medical Science and our products are free.

We probably hold the most extensive resources in morphological terminologies (by collaboration with FIPAT and Prof. Pierre Sprumont)
You will find TA (Terminologia Anatomica) in 8 languages:
Loredana Cirstea has translated it into Romanian about one year ago. We have not had a peer review yet. (We will re-translate it on our new methodology, then present it to review)
There is also a iPhone and Android app with it.

We also have all 3 FIPAT terminologies here (En only):
about 20.000 terms. all digitized by our project

Since Loredana Cirstea (6th year med student) is now in charge of the terminologies subproject, she will keep in touch with you should you want to contribute. She is presently preparing her graduation thesis at Carol Davila UMF Bucharest on “Algorithm of translation in the Romanian language for the Terminologia Histologica and APIs for a controlled vocabulary”.

She will contact you related to any recommendations you may provide. Just let me know that you want to help in this matter. There were already a lot of conversations with UMF Carol Davila's Histologists who were not interested to help. But she needs detailed histological peer review.

Our project also holds license for use for VHP. Also Visible Korean Human (VKH) and we are negotiating for the Visible Chinese.
Using VKH we have developed SMP 2D Navigator:

For more info about our project: http://sliced.ro/blog/
 
I should be pleased to have some fresh news from him. 
Wait for details,
Andy C

I will keep Prof. Sprumont in loop related to our collaboration.

Thank you for your time,
Christian Tzurcanu, SMP 

On Saturday, February 8, 2014 1:33 PM, Christian Tzurcanu <christian...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Dr. Andy Remus Marius Chirculescu,

My name is Christian Tzurcanu and I am a volunteer for Sapiens Mapping Project http://sliced.ro/.

You have been nominated by Prof. Pierre Sprumont as someone who may be interested to help in our efforts of translating Terminologia Histologica, Terminologia Anatomica, Terminologia Embryologica in Romanian.

I have found: 

This source contains your email address.
Please confirm that you were working under Prof John Morris at Oxford Univ. to ensure we are talking to the right person.

If we found the right person, please tell us if you are willing to help so we can update you with all that has been done.

Thank you for your time,
Christian Tzurcanu, SMP

















Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages