Clear(wire) as backhaul, is it allowed?
Michael Weinberg
I spoke with the manager of the soon-to-be-open "interactive kiosk" at
the Lloyd Center (who was working at the, I assume, non-interactive
kiosk) and asked her about sharing àla neighborhood hotspot and she
said that while you only got one modem, they didn't care if you shared
with your neighbor, which led me to believe that she didn't entirely
understand my question, but also that Clearwire probably hadn't laid
out a strict anti-sharing policy to its retail employees either.
I went looking on their site for more details, and found their Terms
of Service which do not seem to address connection sharing, but they
do refer to an Acceptable Use Policy that I cannot find anywhere.
Russell had mentioned seeing it in the past, and that it did prohibit
sharing, but he couldn't find it again when we were talking about it.
So, has anyone else either found in writing or been given verbal
guidelines about whether you can share your Clear connection via WiFi?
--
Michael Weinberg
President
Personal Telco Project, Inc.
A 501(c)(3) Non-Profit
Sam Churchill
Ben Wolf, tomorrow if there's some policy. The answer I got from the
Broadway storefront (near Lloyd Center), is that it's okay -- but
who'd want to leave their connection "open"?
But any number of mobile WiFi routers will soon support Mobile WiMAX
backhaul. I don't see how they can -- or would want to -- stop it.
- Sam
----------
Sam Churchill
(www.dailywireless.org)
Gary
into these Terms of Service as though they are a part of it. Clearwire
reserves the right to immediately restrict, limit, suspend or terminate
your Service or terminate this Agreement for any violation of the
Acceptable Use Policy."
http://www.clear.com/company/legal/terms.php
There are several mentions of network management (bandwidth throttling,
charges for overage, etc), some boilerplate regareding abuse (spam,
malware, etc), but nothing regarding multiple users aside from this
small piece in section 12:
"You acknowledge that speed and bandwidth available to each computer or
device connected to the network may vary for reasons including, but not
limited to the number of users, computers or devices connected to the
network, the amount of data being transferred over the network, and
available bandwidth."
-Gary
Michael Weinberg
compliance with the AUP, a separate document. I suppose it could mean
that the Terms of Service include the AUP, but as it appears to lack
much of the usage specifics that typically is in an AUP, I'm inclined
toward the former reading.
Gary
> as it appears to lack
> much of the usage specifics that typically is in an AUP, I'm inclined
> toward the former reading.
>
I disagree -- most common ISP/NSP usage policy tenets appear in their
TOS and the section I quoted specifically say that their TOS are also
their AUP. I used to work for a tier one network provider and though
that was over 10 years ago now, AUP content hasn't changed much.
-Gary
Michael Weinberg
I don't think it's that clear. "The Acceptable Use Policy is incorporated
into these Terms of Service as though they are a part of it." As
though they are part of it suggests that there is something outside of
this document (i.e. the ToS) that should be considered to be part of
the ToS.
I also don't agree that typical AUP content is included in the ToS.
There is no mention anywhere of what the user is allowed to do, only
the expectations on the part of Clearwire. Nothing that prohibits
sending bulk e-mail and nothing that prohibits illegal activity, both
boiler plate pieces in typical AUPs. Searching the entire Clear ToS
yields one instance of the work "illegal," under the section on
contract severability. For comparison, the Comcast ToS has 3 instances
of the word "illegal" just in the AUP subsection
(http://www.comcast.net/terms/use/).
Gary
absolute discretion, to employ network management activities including,
but not limited to (i) reducing, limiting, or otherwise restricting
uplink and downlink speeds and transfer rates, (ii) reducing or limiting
peer-to-peer sessions during periods of high network congestion, (iii)
preventing the delivery of spam, (iv) detecting malicious Internet
traffic and preventing the distribution of viruses or other harmful code
or content, and (v) using other tools and techniques to control
bandwidth overuse."
Michael Weinberg
That is entirely different than what the user is allowed to do with
the service. Just because Clearwire reserves the right to manage
bandwidth, it doesn't mean that they have no other expectation or
requirements for what their customers must or must not do. I stand by
my position that something is missing.
Hopefully Sam can clear that up for us after his chat with the CEO.
Michael
Gary wrote:
> "You acknowledge that speed and bandwidth available to each computer or
> device connected to the network may vary for reasons including, but not
> limited to the number of users, computers or devices connected to the
> network, the amount of data being transferred over the network, and
> available bandwidth."
That reads to me to say:
You realize that as we get more customers and saturate the network your slice
of the pie will shrink, perhaps to recognizable levels of crawl.
or perhaps:
You understand this is a shared media network and as more people participate
the speed and bandwidth may drop.
--
Michael Rasmussen
http://www.jamhome.us/
Be Appropriate && Follow Your Curiosity
Gary
> Just because Clearwire reserves the right to manage
> bandwidth, it doesn't mean that they have no other expectation or
> requirements for what their customers must or must not do. I stand by
> my position that something is missing.
"Clearwire may suspend or discontinue providing the Service generally,
or terminate your Service, either in whole or in part, at any time in
its sole discretion. ... Clearwire reserves the right to immediately
restrict, limit, suspend or terminate your Service or terminate this
Agreement for any violation of the Acceptable Use Policy."
By their wording, their AUP are the same as their terms of service sans
the typo that says please refer to their AUP. If they say they reserve
the right to change their service and or their service agreement at any
time without discretion then that pretty much covers anything they want
to shut you down for. They do not explicitly say that you cannot share
their service but they also do not say that you can't. They mention
multiple devices being connected to the network via your uplink but
that's it. I'm sure that by asking them to define it more clearly will
require running it past their legal dept.
-Gary
Russell Senior
Gary> I disagree -- most common ISP/NSP usage policy tenets appear in
Gary> their TOS and the section I quoted specifically say that their
Gary> TOS are also their AUP. I used to work for a tier one network
Gary> provider and though that was over 10 years ago now, AUP content
Gary> hasn't changed much.
As of mid-December, there was a separate AUP that I read and quoted to
someone in a private email (and so I can refer to it). It had terms
that prohibited the "loan" of the service amongst a bevy of other
constraints which were less germain to PTP-like use (e.g. resale,
etc). When I tried to load the page again a few days ago it was
empty. The TOS clearly refer to an AUP, but does not provide a link,
so the AUP *could* say anything.
There is also an odd distinction between Home and Mobile accounts. I
know the devices are different, but is the service different as well?
That is, can you use a Home-type device (the ethernet WiMax "modem")
in multiple locations? Or does it get pinned to the nearest tower?
Also, can you use third-party WiMax devices (such as Intel's) to
access Clear.com's service? Intel has linux drivers at least underway
for its WiMax devices. As far as I know, the mobile motorola USB
radio that Clear.com is selling/leasing do not.
Home use is not capped ("Unlimited") but the lower two tiers of Mobile
are capped (something like, 200MB and 2GB/month). This according to
the brochure I saw today.
--
Russell Senior, Secretary
rus...@personaltelco.net
Michael Weinberg
<rus...@personaltelco.net> wrote:
>
>>>>>> "Gary" == Gary <ga...@eyetraxx.net> writes:
>
> Gary> I disagree -- most common ISP/NSP usage policy tenets appear in
> Gary> their TOS and the section I quoted specifically say that their
> Gary> TOS are also their AUP. I used to work for a tier one network
> Gary> provider and though that was over 10 years ago now, AUP content
> Gary> hasn't changed much.
>
> As of mid-December, there was a separate AUP that I read and quoted to
> someone in a private email (and so I can refer to it). It had terms
> that prohibited the "loan" of the service amongst a bevy of other
> constraints which were less germain to PTP-like use (e.g. resale,
> etc). When I tried to load the page again a few days ago it was
> empty. The TOS clearly refer to an AUP, but does not provide a link,
> so the AUP *could* say anything.
That's my sense. You can't very easily follow guidelines that aren't
there, so they should post it. It's probably oversight, and not
malicious, but it's a disservice either way.
> There is also an odd distinction between Home and Mobile accounts. I
> know the devices are different, but is the service different as well?
> That is, can you use a Home-type device (the ethernet WiMax "modem")
> in multiple locations? Or does it get pinned to the nearest tower?
> Also, can you use third-party WiMax devices (such as Intel's) to
> access Clear.com's service? Intel has linux drivers at least underway
> for its WiMax devices. As far as I know, the mobile motorola USB
> radio that Clear.com is selling/leasing do not.
I couldn't really figure that one out when I was at their kiosk.
Seemed like a major distinction was the leasing of a modem (which was
mandatory, as far as I could tell). There was also some hand waving
about different pricing if you wanted month-to-month vs. contract
terms, but no numbers or documentation were produced on that point.
I asked about static IPs at home, but couldn't get an answer from the
manager. Similarly, she did not express that there was a technical
difference between mobile and home, in fact it seemed like she was
saying that the primary difference was that the home modem was more
versatile for connecting devices.
> Home use is not capped ("Unlimited") but the lower two tiers of Mobile
> are capped (something like, 200MB and 2GB/month). This according to
> the brochure I saw today.
I thought that the lower options on Home were capped as well, but
their site has changed since I think I read that. You can't click on
any of the plans for more info, so it appears that only the speeds
differ.
Rick Lindahl
I have been doing some checking on Clear's new services as well...
In my opinion the biggest problem is limited throughput; 200meg, 2 gig or
unlimited (based on mobile service quoted online)
Just based on the throughput limitations alone, I can't imagine using
anything but unlimited service for a PTP hotspot and this would be $50/month
which I'm not sure is a bargain for most of our hotspot clients. The good
news is no need for a phone line or cable connection which makes this quite
attractive for some applications.
Whether or not the TOS/EULA/AUA/etc would allow shared usage, the
limitations above might make the point moot.
My .02 worth
Rick Lindahl
Invictus Networks, LLC
503-635-2562, f503-635-9207
www.invictusnetworks.com
Tyler Booth
up...(sorry, couldn't resist)
1. The AUP is agreed to upon purchasing, the dealership (should) give
you a printed copy of it. It explicitly prohibits connection sharing.
2. The differences in pricing when it monthly vs. contract is $0. The
major difference is that they charge a $35 activation fee when you
don't commit to a 2 year contract.
3. Residential CPE may only be leased ($4.99/month) because current
purchase price is too high for a residential market to bear. As unit
costs drop with volume, a purchase option will be available. The
target price is $~75. The residential CPE is not locked to a
particular location, as long as there is coverage and an AC outlet (or
12VDC) you'll have service.
4. The mobile CPE has a USB interface. Windows drivers only for the
moment but OSX and linux drivers are said to be on the way. The mobile
unit can not be leased, but only purchased at $49. I've successfully
tested the mobile unit under virtualization (Parallels and VMWare).
5. The monthly data transfer limits (200MB, 2GB) are only on the
mobile service, all of the residential packages are unlimited service.
768k = $20/month 3Mbit = $30/month, 6Mbit = $40/month
6. Static IP addresses are available at an additional cost $10/month.
This isn't available on the mobile service.
Randy Primeaux
Wi-Fi Terms and Conditions
Effective April 20, 2005, Clear has revised its Wi-Fi Terms and
Conditions and other related provisions for use of Clear's services.
You are strongly encouraged to read the entire agreement and to check
this webpage periodically for any changes or updates.
5. Intended Use of Service: Prohibited Uses. Unless otherwise
authorized by us in writing, you may only use a single user account
solely for your use of the Service through one unit per login session.
You may not reproduce, duplicate, copy, sell, provision, resell, rent,
lend, pledge, directly or indirectly transfer, distribute or exploit
any portion of the Service without Clear's prior written consent. You
will not use the Service in a manner prohibited by any federal, state,
or local law or regulation, and will abide by Clear's Policies, which
set forth additional rules that govern your activity in connection
with the Service. Without limiting the foregoing, you may not use the
Service, or allow the Service to be used, for any abusive purpose or
in any way that damages Clear's property or interferes with or
disrupts Clear's network or other users or subscribers. You agree not
to share your IP address or Internet connection with anyone, access
the Service simultaneously through multiple units or to authorize any
other individual or entity to use the Service. You agree that sharing
the Service with another party breaches the Agreement and may
constitute fraud or theft, for which Clear, its affiliates, and their
agents reserve all rights and remedies. You have no proprietary or
ownership rights to a specific IP or other address, log-in name, or
password that you use on our network. We may change your address,
log-in name or password at any time. [...]
Randy Primeaux
+1 (503) 890-4384 mobile
randyp...@gmail.com
http://cloudfactory.org/~randy
Michael Weinberg
Clear's Portland service would be allowed, and that they were actually
encouraging businesses to use it to run hotspots.
Read a little more here: http://wiki.personaltelco.net/WeeklyMeeting20090211
Gary
> He also says they have an Android based phone coming this year.
I guess they're putting that half a billion from Google to good use. They have hinted at this before... does that mean they'll be selling unlimited minutes mobile VoIP service without credit checks, service agreements, etc?
-Gary
