[PTGui] Output format in PTGui and Photoshop Raw Converter

[Marcus]

Hello,

i have trouble to find the right output format in PTGui so that i am
able to open the file with the RAW converter in Photoshop. I am using
CS3 and the latest version of PTGui.
Independent if i create a jpg, tif or photoshop - i can not get the
option Open with Raw converter in Bridge - a jpg from my camera will
give me this option.
What is wrong?

Thanks Marcus

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[Joergen Geerds]

Hi Marcus,

My main question is: why do you want to open your finished panorama in
ACR? What does ACR give you that is not possible in photoshop with
adjustment layers?

secondly, to allow jpgs and tiffs to open in ACR, you need to set a
photoshop preference:
-> photoshop -> preferences -> camera raw: allow jpg and tiff handling

now you can go to open file -> select your jpg or tiff -> select
camera raw as your file format -> open... and enjoy the ACR dialog

please note that this is not possible with PSD and PSB files, there is
probably also a limit how large a jpg/tiff can be to be opened in ACR,
although I do not know the limit, and it probably depends on your
version of ACR.

Lastly, I don't think that this is the smartest thing to do, since a
16/32bit photoshop file (PSD or PSB) already has all the info you want
to manipulate, and if you are going the jpg output route (or 8 bit
tiff), then you lost already a huge chunk of your data that ACR won't
be able to recover, that it's almost not worth doing much to it
anyway, but that is just my opinion. YMMV.

It would be better to either shoot RAW and develop them properly, or
if you are shooting jpg, then pay more attention to your shooting
settings to make the jpgs as optimal as possible, since there isn't
any headroom in a jpg to fudge.

good luck

joergen

[Eric O'Brien]

On Apr 25, 2010, at 8:46 AM, Joergen Geerds wrote:

> Hi Marcus,
>
> My main question is: why do you want to open your finished panorama in
> ACR? What does ACR give you that is not possible in photoshop with
> adjustment layers?

Uhh... Color Temperature would be one. Finer control over
sharpening. Etc.

So, ANY control found in Camera Raw that's not available in Photoshop
itself.

>
> secondly, to allow jpgs and tiffs to open in ACR, you need to set a
> photoshop preference:
> -> photoshop -> preferences -> camera raw: allow jpg and tiff handling

I don't find that exact wording, but maybe that's because I'm using
CS3. Otherwise, that's only necessary if you want to open your jpg or
tiff files as RAW automatically.

>
> now you can go to open file -> select your jpg or tiff -> select
> camera raw as your file format -> open... and enjoy the ACR dialog
>
> please note that this is not possible with PSD and PSB files,

I don't find this to be true. I can select a PSB file, choose Format:
Camera Raw and the file opens just fine. (It *may* be necessary to
save files with/set the prefs for "Maximize PSD and PSB file
Compatibility.")

> there is
> probably also a limit how large a jpg/tiff can be to be opened in ACR,
> although I do not know the limit, and it probably depends on your
> version of ACR.
>
> Lastly, I don't think that this is the smartest thing to do, since a
> 16/32bit photoshop file (PSD or PSB) already has all the info you want
> to manipulate, and if you are going the jpg output route (or 8 bit
> tiff), then you lost already a huge chunk of your data that ACR won't
> be able to recover, that it's almost not worth doing much to it
> anyway, but that is just my opinion. YMMV.

I don't think the original poster suggested using JPEGs... he simply
was saying that "a jpg from my camera will
give me this option."

>

> It would be better to either shoot RAW and develop them properly, or
> if you are shooting jpg, then pay more attention to your shooting
> settings to make the jpgs as optimal as possible, since there isn't
> any headroom in a jpg to fudge.

Since I have done the following, I can say that it is entirely
possible: Convert original Raw files to 16 bit TIFF files. Stitch in
PTGui and output the panorama as a 16 bit TIFF file. Open Photoshop,
go to the File menu, choose Open, navigate to the 16-bit TIFF file
select it in the list, *then* change Format to "Camera Raw" and press
the Open button.

The file will open in the Camera Raw interface.

[Erik Krause]

Am 27.04.2010 09:31, schrieb Eric O'Brien:

> Uhh... Color Temperature would be one. Finer control over
> sharpening. Etc.
>
> So, ANY control found in Camera Raw that's not available in Photoshop
> itself.

There aren't much more. You won't use all geometrical adjustments like
vignetting, CA or distortion correction. Curves you have in photoshop as
well. Basic sharpening is best done on the undistorted images. And color
temperature can and should be adjusted during initial raw conversion. If
you need a slight correction later you can use photo filter either with
a predefined filter or with a custom color which gives you far more
possibilities than ACR WB and tint correction.

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

[Joergen Geerds]

On Apr 27, 3:31 am, Eric O'Brien <eri...@extramonday.com> wrote:
> Uhh... Color Temperature would be one.  Finer control over  
> sharpening.  Etc.
> So, ANY control found in Camera Raw that's not available in Photoshop  
> itself.

hi eric,
as erik has mentioned already, there aren't that many things in ACR
that aren't available in photoshop, not even in the very latest.

> > -> photoshop -> preferences -> camera raw: allow jpg and tiff handling
> I don't find that exact wording, but maybe that's because I'm using  
> CS3.  Otherwise, that's only necessary if you want to open your jpg or  
> tiff files as RAW automatically.

yes, that is true, but quite honestly I don't remember how the exact
wording was called in CS3, it's been too long that I have used it.

> > now you can go to open file -> select your jpg or tiff -> select
> > camera raw as your file format -> open... and enjoy the ACR dialog
> > please note that this is not possible with PSD and PSB files,
> I don't find this to be true.  I can select a PSB file, choose Format:  
> Camera Raw and the file opens just fine.  (It *may* be necessary to  
> save files with/set the prefs for "Maximize PSD and PSB file  
> Compatibility.")

as far as I know/believe, ACR might be able to open flat PSD/PSBs...
in other words no layers... I don't think it has something to do with
"maximize compatibility" since that involves layer/file previews and
compression, not the actual image data itself.

> Since I have done the following, I can say that it is entirely  
> possible:  Convert original Raw files to 16 bit TIFF files.  Stitch in  
> PTGui and output the panorama as a 16 bit TIFF file.  Open Photoshop,  
> go to the File menu, choose Open, navigate to the 16-bit TIFF file  
> select it in the list, *then* change Format to "Camera Raw" and press  
> the Open button.
>
> The file will open in the Camera Raw interface.

yes, I agree, and it is essentially what I wrote earlier.

[Keith Martin]

Sometime around 27/4/10 (at 18:18 +0200) Erik Krause said:

>If you need a slight correction later you can use photo filter
>either with a predefined filter or with a custom color which gives
>you far more possibilities than ACR WB and tint correction.

Exactly - this is a very useful technique, something I use to make
final and sometimes local white balance adjustments to the stitched
image. A little off-topic from the original post, but here's a
rundown of my quick method:

- Choose Image Adjustments > Photo Filter
- Choose the Color option
- Click the color chip to open the Color window
- Point and click on an area that should be nearer white to sample that color
- Set the Hue value to be 180 degrees different (the hue-opposite),
perhaps boost the saturation a bit, and click OK to get back to the
Photo Filter window
- Play with the Density slider

Do this to a duplicate layer of your stitched equirect and use a
layer mask to control where this change will show. Just watch out
when painting the layer mask near the left or right boundaries. If
this is a problem, use the Offset filter to move layers around and
bring the edges into the middle.

k (about to head into teaching - so in the zone. Sorry!)

[michael biondo]

I think it would be very useful to be able to build a pano in PtGui
using RAW files and then output the assembled pano as a raw file(DNG).
You could then open that pano in ACR, save it as a smart object and
have the ability to work on the image in a non destructive manner,
duplicating layers, making non destructive adjustments on each layer,
applying layer masks to each and painting away. Is this possible??

[Joergen Geerds]

On Apr 28, 1:30 pm, michael biondo <mich...@michaelbiondo.com> wrote:
> I think it would be very useful to be able to build a pano in PtGui
> using RAW files and then output the assembled pano as a raw file(DNG).
> You could then open that pano in ACR, save it as a smart object and
> have the ability to work on the image in a non destructive manner,
> duplicating layers, making non destructive adjustments on each layer,
> applying layer masks to each and painting away. Is this possible??

I think you misunderstood what RAW files are.
RAW files contain the individual (digitized) data of each photocell. a
group of cell make up a photo site, usually 4 arranged in a bayer
pattern (similar to 2 green, one red, one blue cell). this raw data
then gets interpreted into pixels by the RAW importer (ACR, dcraw, the
appropriate software from your camera, and others). in short, a RAW
file doesn't have any color pixels yet (other than a jpg preview).

it would make no sense whatsoever to export RAW from ptgui (or any
other application). if you want to have more image data to play with,
use 16 bit files, or switch over to HDR (16 and 32 bit floats). DNG is
just a standardized wrapper for RAW files, it is not (yet) made for
intermediate file storage, like PSB/PSD and tiffs are.

sorry to quell your enthusiasm.

joergen

[Joergen Geerds]

On Apr 28, 1:30 pm, michael biondo <mich...@michaelbiondo.com> wrote:

> [...] save it as a smart object and

> have the ability to work on the image in a non destructive manner,
> duplicating layers, making non destructive adjustments on each layer,
> applying layer masks to each and painting away. Is this possible??

There is no reason why you couldn't do this with PSD/PSB/tiff files.
you can open and convert all those things into smart objects, or
simply use adjustment layers. you don't need ACR at all for this. just
keep in mind that it is a computational nightmare to use smart objects
for anything larger than 100 megapixel. your working file size will
balloon out of proportion (probably at least 2x the size of your
original object you used for your smart object), and it will be slow
as molasses, but other than that, there is nobody stopping you.

joergen

[Lucas Lockie]

Michael,

If you want to play with PTGui output in the same fashion as with RAW
files just export your panoramas as 16bit TIFF file, and then use
"Open As" Photoshop command. You'll be able to change colour
temperature etc. I couldn't open 32bit TIFFs or .hdr's that way.

Then you can add non-destructive adjustment layers.

Another alternative could be Lightroom. Maybe it can accept files with
greater bit depths or "floats"/HDRs (?), but doesn't offer layers.

Lucas

On Apr 28, 6:30 pm, michael biondo <mich...@michaelbiondo.com> wrote:
> I think it would be very useful to be able to build a pano in PtGui
> using RAW files and then output the assembled pano as a raw file(DNG).
> You could then open that pano in ACR, save it as a smart object and
> have the ability to work on the image in a non destructive manner,
> duplicating layers, making non destructive adjustments on each layer,
> applying layer masks to each and painting away. Is this possible??
>
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[michael biondo]

It seems silly to use a raw converter to make adjustments on jpegs,
psd and tiffs or any other file that has already ben converted and big
files for me are not a problem, I have found, IMHOP that when I work
on a file in a raw converter (c1 pro or ACR) I get better tonal
gradations and having thee ability to go back to the raw file is
always very helpful, Working in 16 bit and HDR is fine, and it is
presently part of my workflow but I am looking forward to improve &
simplify. Adobe is doing amazing things with camera raw and smart
objects. The two combined make a lot of sense for the work I do.

[Joergen Geerds]

On Apr 28, 3:09 pm, michael biondo <mich...@michaelbiondo.com> wrote:
> It seems silly to use a raw converter to make adjustments on jpegs,

> psd and tiffs or any other file that has already ben converted [...]

hi Michael,

I agree with you, and Erik said it already, there is almost nothing in
ACR what you can't have in photoshop (with the exception of a color
temperature adjustment, which we won't see until CS6 at least, and
which is the biggest help in ACR that I can imagine. everything else
should be handled in the first ACR step).

> I have found, IMHOP that when I work
> on a file in a raw converter (c1 pro or ACR) I get better tonal
> gradations and having thee ability to go back to the raw file is
> always very helpful

I don't think that you would get better gradations with a ACR->16bit
TIFF->ptgui->16bit PSB/tiff->ACR than with a ACR->16bit TIFF->ptgui-
>16bit PSB->photoshop adjustment layers work flow. there might be
slight differences, but the most differences will be from the ptgui
blending engine, not from any other components. (replace ACR with C1
if necessary, I am using ACR for illustrative purposes).

> Working in 16 bit and HDR is fine, and it is
> presently part of my workflow but I am looking forward to improve &
> simplify. Adobe is doing amazing things with camera raw and smart
> objects. The two combined make a lot of sense for the work I do.

I am all with you pushing the envelope of technology and software, but
I think this thread started with a hypothesis that IMO is not the most
practical thing, especially if you consider that all the ACR
parameters for a RAW file get stored in a sidecar xmp file, while C1
ignores the adobe sidecar files and does its own settings. all those
additional changes that are made from opening i.e. a tiff panorama in
ACR/c1 get lost once you re-render your panorama (happens sometimes),
while it's easy to move the adjustment layers from one pano to the
next pano in photoshop.

yes adobe does amazing things with ACR, especially the latest
versions, but so does Photoshop (also the latest version).
but I am also all for using the right tool for the right task. Yes, if
one individual chooses to use a non-standard workflow, that is fine
for that individual, I am more concerned about the broader user-base,
where somebody less advanced might get the idea from this discussion
that a workflow with something like ACR in the middle would be a good
idea, which it isn't for most people.

joergen

[Eric O'Brien]

About "Maximize PSD File Compatibility" in Photoshop...

From the Help for CS3 (no I haven't upgraded to CS4. Oops, or CS5)
-- "This saves a composite (flattened) image along
with the layers of your document."

eo

On Apr 27, 2010, at 11:57 AM, Joergen Geerds wrote:

> as far as I know/believe, ACR might be able to open flat PSD/PSBs...
> in other words no layers... I don't think it has something to do with
> "maximize compatibility" since that involves layer/file previews and
> compression, not the actual image data itself.

[michael biondo]

Thanks everyone for the input. I think that I am not making myself
entirely clear. The workflow that I am proposing (if it were possible)
would be to shoot raw, stitch the raw files (without "processing them)
in PTGui, outputting from PYGui the stitched file as a raw DNG file,
then opening the the file in photoshop as a smart object. I know that
the file would be a monster in terms of size but I think it would be
very useful, for my workflow at least, to be able to work this way.
Perhaps we will see this type of functionality in the near future?
Thank You,
Michael

[Joergen Geerds]

On Apr 29, 9:30 am, michael biondo <mich...@michaelbiondo.com> wrote:
> Thanks everyone for the input. I think that I am not making myself
> entirely clear. The workflow that I am proposing (if it were possible)
> would be to shoot raw, stitch the raw files (without "processing them)
> in PTGui, outputting from PYGui the stitched file as a raw DNG file,
> then opening the the file in photoshop as a smart object. I know that
> the file would be a monster in terms of size but I think it would be
> very useful, for my workflow at least, to be able to work this way.
> Perhaps we will see this type of functionality in the near future?

Hi Michael,

I thought I understood your proposal very well. I personally just
think it's not feasible at this point in time (early 2010). The
current alternatives (16 and 32 bit workflows) are sufficiently good
for 99% (in my opinion). while I support Eric O'Brien in his opinion
that DNG could be an intermediate file format, it's limitations (since
it's a derivatives of TIFF 6.0) of 2-4GB file size will probably apply
(i don't think adobe has given the bigTiff initiative enough attention
to implement any of their ideas into the DNG yet), and it will be a
just wrapper for regular pixel data (just like a tiff or a PSD/PSB).
It will not contain real RAW data (see my explanation of what RAW data
is above) like you would like to see, because it would be reverse
engineering the de-mosaicing process of the bayer pattern (which is a
complicated, and rather cumbersome process in my simple mind).

In my personal opinion, there are much more important things in ptgui
to fix and to implement than a feature like this (i.e. stacks for
brackets, grid pre-arrangement, faster processing etc etc.).

[Erik Krause]

Am 29.04.2010 15:30, schrieb michael biondo:
> The workflow that I am proposing (if it were possible)
> would be to shoot raw, stitch the raw files (without "processing them)
> in PTGui, outputting from PYGui the stitched file as a raw DNG file

I think it's not worth the effort. CA correction needs to be performed
on the undistorted raw image - you can't do it later. Some other
corrections need to be done on the undistorted image, so why not do them
during initial raw conversion. Any adjustment you can do on the remapped
image can be done outside a raw converter. And the best approach to
non-destructive editing is still simply not to overwrite the original.

However, Helmut Dersch has exactly what you propose as a long term goal
for PTStitcherNG...

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

[Lucas Lockie]

On Apr 28, 8:09 pm, michael biondo <mich...@michaelbiondo.com> wrote:
> It seems silly to use a raw converter to make adjustments on jpegs,
> psd and tiffs or any other file that has already ben converted and big

Not so silly in my opinion. At least as silly as using Lightroom for
JPGs. Just for ease of manipulation, especially of colour temperature.
I prefer to use layers, but when I have highly processed, flat file
like panorama, I can quickly and easily fine tune some parameters in
ACR.