Images not in order

[purtypitcher]

Trying the 12.1 Pro trial, I can't find how to rearrange the photos into the correct order?

[John Houghton]

I think you just want to drag the image to the left using the mouse, with the shift key held down to maintain the vertical position.

John

[purtypitcher]

That worked, thanks! Could it be all the moving water is somehow throwing it off at first?

[John Houghton]

On Monday, March 22, 2021 at 11:21:05 PM UTC purtypitcher wrote:

That worked, thanks! Could it be all the moving water is somehow throwing it off at first?

No.  If you just add all the image files and then run Align Images, it should centre the panorama automatically.  On the other hand, if you add the images, then generate control points and run the optimizer , you will end up with a display similar to the one you show unless you specify the central image to be the anchor image.

John

[purtypitcher]

Here is another example, with the tripod more accurately leveled, and rotating around the lens no parallax point. I import the images and run Align Images and get this. I tried importing raw files and also 16 bit tiffs, same result. This is from 17 vertical images, and the Optimizer says average distance 1.559 and max of 5.87 and a "very good" rating. Lots of control points on the clouds and of course none on the water. Running the Optimizer does not recenter the image in the editor. Seems like I must have a setting off somewhere? Clicking "center panorama" warps the whole thing slightly, clicking "straighten panorama" brings it back to what you see here.

[John Houghton]

I'm afraid I don't know exactly what Align Images is doing here.  When I try stitching sets of my own images, Align Images centres them fine.  However, I happened to choose another set which I had to hand (not mine) and that produced a result similar to yours. Now these images were shot by a drone, and they get initially positioned automatically simply by loading them in.  I'm thinking that GPS data is playing a part here.  When you load in your images, do they get automatically positioned before you get around to running Align Images?  My own images simply stay stacked on top of each other like a pack of cards on loading in.

John

[Erik Krause]

Am 23.03.2021 um 22:35 schrieb John Houghton:
> I'm thinking that GPS data is playing a part here. When you load
> in your images, do they get automatically positioned before you get around
> to running Align Images?

To try whether this is the case go to the Metadata tab and uncheck "Use
orientation data of source images".

If that doesn't work please make the source images available. Make sure
not to strip the meta data (zip them before uploading, since some file
sharing services remove the meta data from images).

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

[purtypitcher]

When I load the images they are spread out in proper order in the Project Assistant tab, they are not stacked. The #1 image appears by itself in the Editor window, in the center. Then, clicking the Align tab gives the incorrect result in the Editor. My camera Canon 5DSR does not have GPS. I tried unchecking "use orientation data of source images" and it asks me for a compass angle which I don't have. (If I click one of the other tabs and then go back to Metadata it reverts back to putting a checkmark in the Orientation box). Where would I upload my source images?

[John Houghton]

On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 9:58:17 PM UTC Erik Krause wrote:

Am 23.03.2021 um 22:35 schrieb John Houghton:
> I'm thinking that GPS data is playing a part here. When you load
> in your images, do they get automatically positioned before you get around
> to running Align Images?

To try whether this is the case go to the Metadata tab and uncheck "Use
orientation data of source images".

Erik, Good suggestion!   I tried this with the drone images, and the solution does work. However, it seems you have to do this only after loading in the images.  If you do the uncheck "Use orientation..." before loading in the images,  the setting is restored  back to checked.

John

[John Houghton]

See my response just now.  Try unchecking the "Use orientation data..."  just before clicking on Align Images.  Otherwise, you can upload images (preferably zipped together) to the free service wetransfer.com (no need to register) and post a link to them here.

John

[purtypitcher]

Thanks John and Erik. I tried working with the Canon raw files and unchecking "Use orientation" after loading and just before Align Images. It did not work. But then I tried another pano with 16 images instead of 17, and the raw images were properly oriented REGARDLESS if if I checked or unchecked "use orientation". BUT trying with that same image as 16 bit tiff files instead of raw, with only minor total adjustments, gave the error again, and I again tried both checked and unchecked versions of "use orientation". So, getting some definite inconsistencies. I'll zip and upload some source images tomorrow and will post a link. Thanks again for your ideas.

[PTGui Support]

Hi,

Your drone embeds EXIF data in all images indicating the yaw and pitch
of each image. PTGui uses this by default to pre-align the panorama. It
can be handy especially if it's a fully spherical panorama containing a
few 'blue sky' images only, these will be positioned automatically.

For your panorama it's easy to correct the placement afterwards, just
shift-drag the panorama to the left in the panorama editor.

Or you can disable the automatic behavior completely: before loading
your images, click Advanced, go to Project Settings and uncheck this box
(at the bottom):

Position images automatically using metadata from the camera's
orientation sensor

Then load your images.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 24/03/2021 00:01, purtypitcher wrote:
> Thanks John and Erik. I tried working with the Canon raw files and
> unchecking "Use orientation" after loading and just before Align Images.
> It did not work. But then I tried another pano with 16 images instead of
> 17, and the raw images were properly oriented REGARDLESS if if I checked
> or unchecked "use orientation". BUT trying with that same image as 16
> bit tiff files instead of raw, with only minor total adjustments, gave
> the error again, and I again tried both checked and unchecked versions
> of "use orientation". So, getting some definite inconsistencies. I'll
> zip and upload some source images tomorrow and will post a link. Thanks
> again for your ideas.
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 23, 2021 at 6:28:16 PM UTC-4 John Houghton wrote:
>
> See my response just now.  Try unchecking the "Use orientation
> data..."  just before clicking on Align Images.  Otherwise, you can
> upload images (preferably zipped together) to the free service

> wetransfer.com <http://wetransfer.com> (no need to register) and

> http://www.erik-krause.de <http://www.erik-krause.de>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "PTGui Support" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ef8bda47-4233-4fb5-8172-2ca62fc614b0n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ef8bda47-4233-4fb5-8172-2ca62fc614b0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[John Houghton]

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 7:00:05 AM UTC PTGui Support wrote:

Hi,

Your drone embeds EXIF data in all images indicating the yaw and pitch
of each image. PTGui uses this by default to pre-align the panorama. It
can be handy especially if it's a fully spherical panorama containing a
few 'blue sky' images only, these will be positioned automatically.

 Joost, The camera is a Canon 5DS R, not a drone.  It's quite clear from the Panorama Editor window that the images are being pre-aligned on loading.  But this is happening before Align Images is run.  Yet if the "already  roughly positioned " box is unchecked, and the "roughly arrange images box" is checked, it is natural to assume you would get the same effect as not pre-positioning the images (by whatever means) before running Align Images.  And if I reset the yaw values of all the (pre-aligned) images to 0 before running Align Images, you do get a nicely centred panorama.  So I would say that  Align Images is wrong in not doing as it is told - to roughly arrange images first.  It's all  very confusing.

John

[PTGui Support]

On 24/03/2021 10:23, John Houghton wrote:
>  Joost, The camera is a Canon 5DS R, not a drone.  It's quite clear

I see. In that case PTGui must be pre-aligning the images based on the
GPS compass heading.

> nicely centred panorama.  So I would say that  Align Images is wrong in
> not doing as it is told - to roughly arrange images first.  It's all
> very confusing.

I'll think about it. I'm afraid anything change I make will be going to
break other use cases.

In any case the key is to disable this checkbox:

'Position images automatically using metadata from the camera's
orientation sensor'

Joost

[John Houghton]

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 9:34:14 AM UTC PTGui Support wrote:

On 24/03/2021 10:23, John Houghton wrote:
>  Joost, The camera is a Canon 5DS R, not a drone.  It's quite clear

I see. In that case PTGui must be pre-aligning the images based on the
GPS compass heading.

Sorry,  We don't have the 5DS images.  I was using drone images from another report.  

Incidentally,  Years ago we had the option to centre a panorama horizontally available in the Panorama Editor window.  I frequently miss having it and I find the centre horizontally and vertically option virtually useless because it disturbs the levelling.  I know that there are various means of achieving the same effect, but it seems odd that such a desirable simple facility was removed.

John 

[PTGui Support]

On 24/03/2021 10:54, John Houghton wrote:
> Incidentally,  Years ago we had the option to centre a panorama
> horizontally available in the Panorama Editor window.  I frequently miss

> having it and I find the centre horizontally *and* vertically option

> virtually useless because it disturbs the levelling.  I know that there
> are various means of achieving the same effect, but it seems odd that
> such a desirable simple facility was removed.

It's still there, in the Panorama Editor menu bar:
Edit -> Center Panorama Horizontally

It just isn't available from the toolbar anymore (as in PTGui 10).

Joost

[John Houghton]

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 9:57:53 AM UTC PTGui Support wrote:

It's still there, in the Panorama Editor menu bar:
Edit -> Center Panorama Horizontally

It just isn't available from the toolbar anymore (as in PTGui 10).

Well, well, well. It's surprising what you learn here.

John 

[PTGui Support]

Hi Don,

I was guessing wrong; it's a bug in PTGui. Your images don't contain any
EXIF orientation information.

To work around the issue, do this:
- drag the panorama by hand until it is approximately centered
- press the 'center panorama' button
- press the 'straighten panorama' button
- press the 'fit panorama' button

Those 3 buttons are next to each other in the Panorama Editor's toolbar.
This is what PTGui normally does when aligning the panorama. I assume
PTGui is getting confused by the wide field of view and treats it as if
it were a full 360 degree panorama.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 24/03/2021 16:43, purtypitcher wrote:
> I unfortunately don't have time today to try some of the additional
> suggestions (thanks Joost). But here is a link (hopefully I did it
> right) to the 17 original Canon raw files from a 5DS R, to see if the
> behavior might show up for you like it does for me. Also, I should
> mention I'm on a Mac running OS 10.15.7 (Catalina). Later, I will make
> some more tests on other panos from my files as well. I'm only doing
> single row panos, nothing spherical or multi-row.
>
> I agree it is not a big deal to have to drag the panorama into position,
> but would that cause any issues if I don't drag it into an exactly
> centered position? Such as if I need to straighten the horizon line, etc?
> File link:
> https://we.tl/t-BEUuNI7OtE
>
> Thanks,
> Don

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "PTGui Support" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com>.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/297860f8-1250-4ae3-823b-d2d7329d98c2n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/297860f8-1250-4ae3-823b-d2d7329d98c2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.

[Daniel Heyer]

I took a look and PTGui 12.1 created a lot of control points only on clouds. Clouds move and I know from making sceneries for skyboxes that clouds always cause issues with the control points.  I always have to go through and delete the control points on clouds and add control points to solid objects. Your pano has images with only clouds and water that are moving.  And control points on the top of trees can cause issues too. The top of the trees sway in the wind and cause control point issues. 

Your pano will also need the use of the masking tool to get the waves to align better. This is a pretty tough pano to create because of all the moving objects, but will definitely be a beautiful pano once completed. 

Daniel

[Daniel Heyer]

Sorry for the second message. For a pano like this, I would start with the fill yaw function under image parameters. This should get the images pretty close and make aligning easier. Highlight the whole yaw column right-click and select fill yaw.  

Daniel

[purtypitcher]

Joost, here is some more info. I tried the same pano in my licensed PTGui 10.0.19 and it displayed correctly in the Panorama Editor by clicking Align Images. So then I started playing with the 12.1 version, using fewer than the full 17 source images. I started with 12 images, and it worked fine, and it worked fine all the way up to 16 images. But when going to 17 images, it gets confused. Looking at the Yaw numbers under Image Parameters, Image #1 is 0, and the other images count up higher until image #12 at 175.7. Then, image 13 jumps to -168.6, and then reaching -110.1 on image #17.

With the other tests, using less than 17 source images, the Yaw on Image #1 is a negative number, and the other images climb towards 0, and then the last image is the positive opposite of Image #1. I hope that makes sense.

So, it seems something changed from 10.0.19 where it worked correctly with all 17 images. Your workaround of clicking the three buttons (after manually dragging the pano into a general position) seems to work fine. Obviously, this is an extreme example, quite a bit wider than 180 degrees, so it is not going to show up very often, but maybe a small tweak somewhere could fix it?

I had kind of given up on doing panos with lots of moving water, especially ocean, because of excessive manual labor to make it look "right". But the new blending features and seam placement in 12.1 is absolutely incredible, and the difference between version 10 and 12 has got me excited to try them again. Thanks for the amazing upgrade!

Daniel, thanks for your input. Your reference to Yaw is what got me to looking into the numbers where I found that the error occurred only after adding the 17th image. I have never really explored under the hood of this program but now I see a lot of reasons to do so, especially with the new blending features.

Don

[John Houghton]

On Wednesday, March 24, 2021 at 9:29:26 PM UTC purtypitcher wrote:

I had kind of given up on doing panos with lots of moving water, especially ocean, because of excessive manual labor to make it look "right".

What I do for wide expanses of sea like this is to take 2 or 3 extra shots rapidly with the camera handheld in landscape orientation to cover the maximum field of view.  These can be patched over the sea with only a couple of joins to worry about.

John

[Daniel Heyer]

John,

I am trying to be a little funny here, but also slightly serious, you will need to become one with the ocean and time the pictures when the waves are in the same spot. You might have actually take a burst of shots and then pick the pictures that match up the best.  Also, keep the overlap to the pictures to a minimum,.  Moving water is a challenge. 

And use a tripod with a pano head like the Nodal Ninjas. You can also find some cheaper ones to learn on if you are just starting out. 

Daniel

[Daniel Heyer]

John,

Wanted to get some practice in. This is the best I could do with the photos. 

https://spaces.hightail.com/space/Qlax36XqZZ

Daniel

[John Houghton]

On Thursday, March 25, 2021 at 2:42:30 AM UTC dhe...@gmail.com wrote:

John,

Wanted to get some practice in. This is the best I could do with the photos. 

That's a good effort.  It's really hard getting a natural look with so many images. 

John 

[purtypitcher]

Actually, it's dons_Panorama. And it was just a test shot from a few years ago when I was trying to learn how much to overlap. I prolly should take down the link to the full rez originals, lol.

Don

[Daniel Heyer]

John,

I usually work with hundreds of images so only working with 17 was a joy.  http://360gigapixels.com/prague_gigapixel_panorama_900K_2018/  I think this is the current largest pano https://www.panaxity.com/?s=1-kl-tower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_photographs#Shanghai_272_Gigapixels_(December_2010)

I do not want to imagine how long the stitching took in 2010!

Daniel