Accessing Custom Camera Profiles in a RAW Workflow in 13 Beta 6

[Matt Hill]

Hello:

Loving 13 Beta! For a long time, I have pre-processed images to taste and used a TIFF workflow with PTGUI Pro. Mostly because I use low contrast night photography images and having control over the nuances yields a better result for me.

I am exploring whether 13 Beta 6 works well in RAW mode and encountered the following: 
I imported and stitched a DNG set. I exported a DNG. 
Issue: Back in LrC,  the only options are "Color" or "Monochrome."

I was hoping to see all the profiles that normally live there, especially the custom camera profiles I made with a 24-patch ColorChecker under controlled lighting conditions. 

See attached screenshots demonstrating the differences.

Second question: Is there any chance this PTGUI 13 will also look at the folder where these profiles are stored and give us the ability to apply them?

If both of these answers point towards no, I will likely continue to pre-process and use a TIFF workflow as my current workflow is tailored to honoring those color pforiles (and the presets I built that apply that Profile and a White Balance).

Thanks for considering this issue. 
Matt

[Matt Hill]

Ping. 

[PTGui Support]

Hi Matt,

Apologies, I missed your original post.

This seems to be an Adobe specific thing which I'm not familiar with.
I've tried opening a few raw and DNG files but am only seeing
Color/Monotchrome profiles, or Adobe Color/Landscape/etc profiles.

Is this a profile you created yourself? Can't you use the Browse option
(visible in your screenshot) to select the profile in ACR and apply it
to the stitched DNG?

> Second question: Is there any chance this PTGUI 13 will also look at
> the folder where these profiles are stored and give us the ability
> to apply them?

That depends; if the profiles are embedded in the DNG file perhaps this
is possible. If the profiles are specific to ACR, I don't think this
would be possible.

If you could send me some files and explain how to reproduce what you
are seeing, that would be helpful.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 22-05-2024 14:50, Matt Hill wrote:
> Ping.
>
> On Thursday, May 16, 2024 at 1:55:04 PM UTC-4 Matt Hill wrote:
>
> Hello:
>
> Loving 13 Beta! For a long time, I have pre-processed images to
> taste and used a TIFF workflow with PTGUI Pro. Mostly because I use
> low contrast night photography images and having control over the
> nuances yields a better result for me.
>
> I am exploring whether 13 Beta 6 works well in RAW mode and
> encountered the following:
> I imported and stitched a DNG set. I exported a DNG.

> *Issue: *Back in LrC,  the only options are "Color" or "Monochrome."

> I was hoping to see all the profiles that normally live there,
> especially the custom camera profiles I made with a 24-patch
> ColorChecker under controlled lighting conditions.
>

> See attached screenshots demonstrating the differences.Screenshot
> 2024-05-16 at 11.49.33 AM.pngScreenshot 2024-05-16 at
> 11.49.38 AM.pngScreenshot 2024-05-16 at 11.49.57 AM.png

>
>
> If both of these answers point towards no, I will likely continue to
> pre-process and use a TIFF workflow as my current workflow is
> tailored to honoring those color pforiles (and the presets I built
> that apply that Profile and a White Balance).
>
> Thanks for considering this issue.
> Matt
>

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[Stan Narten]

I also just decompiled a PTGUI created DNG using DCPTool, and found that the field called UniqueCameraModelRestriction has been changed from my camera model

"Fujifilm GFX 100S"

to 

"PTGui DNG"

This is preventing LR/ACR from being able to apply any custom profiles 

If this camera ID field remains exactly the same as the source images instead of being re-tagged by PTGui, I think this should solve this major problem (LR/ACR is very specific about the camera name in the DNG matching the DCP Profile)

Hoping this simple fix can be added in an upcoming version, and I can finally be rid of Lightroom's inferior Stitching Engine!

<UniqueCameraModelRestriction>PTGui DNG</UniqueCameraModelRestriction>

best

–Stan

[Stan Narten]

hi Matt and PTGUI Support,

I just purchased the upgrade to 13 beta specifically for the ability to export DNG files and came across this exact same issue immediately that will pretty much put a giant roadblock into my RAW-to DNG workflow! I use all custom built color profiles for all my images, and using Lightroom's (very sketchy) pano merger I am able to keep the ability to switch color profiles after the Pano is created. 

With the current PTGui 13beta6 export, the DNG pano file created is no better than a TIFF, I cannot apply my custom profiles, so the colors are completely wrong, and I have to use export to TIFF workflow, hence invalidating the entire purpose of upgrading my license and creating a DNG!

I do think there is a very, very simple solution to this problem, I noticed that in the camera info Metadata tag the PTGui created images have the Camera tag as [GFX100S] in brackets, the RAW and Lightroom Pano DNGs are GFX100S without brackets!  

DNG profiles are camera specific, they will only be applicable (and visible in LR/ACR) if the camera ID tag in the DNG matches the camera ID tag in the DCP profile (otherwise you only get Color and Monochrome like it was a TIFF (and terrible, terrible color!))

It should be a simple fix this simple bug and to just make sure the camera ID from the RAW/DNGS source files matches the DNG Pano output from PTGui (sans any added brackets)!

 

Can send sample files if needed, but will also have to be accompanied by DCP profile that is created for the same camera that should be installed in the CameraRaw/CameraProfiles folder...

Thanks in advance, hoping I can finally use PTGui with it's vastly superior stitching ability  and be done with the frustration of Lightroom's hIt and miss Panos.

best

–Stan

On Wednesday, May 22, 2024 at 9:54:13 AM UTC-4 PTGui Support wrote:

[PTGui Support]

Hi Stan,

Yes this is planned!

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 04-06-2024 01:23, Stan Narten wrote:
> I also just decompiled a PTGUI created DNG using DCPTool

> <https://dcptool.sourceforge.net/Introduction.html>, and found that the
> field called /UniqueCameraModelRestriction /has been changed from my

> camera model
>
>
> "Fujifilm GFX 100S"
>
>
> to
>
>
> "PTGui DNG"
>
>
> This is preventing LR/ACR from being able to apply any custom profiles
>
>
> If this camera ID field remains exactly the same as the source images
> instead of being re-tagged by PTGui, I think this should solve this
> major problem (LR/ACR is very specific about the camera name in the DNG
> matching the DCP Profile)
>
>
> Hoping this simple fix can be added in an upcoming version, and I can
> finally be rid of Lightroom's inferior Stitching Engine!
>
>

> /<UniqueCameraModelRestriction>PTGui DNG</UniqueCameraModelRestriction>/
> /
> /
> best
>
> –Stan
> /
> /

> On Wednesday, May 22, 2024 at 9:54:13 AM UTC-4 PTGui Support wrote:
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> Apologies, I missed your original post.
>
> This seems to be an Adobe specific thing which I'm not familiar with.
> I've tried opening a few raw and DNG files but am only seeing
> Color/Monotchrome profiles, or Adobe Color/Landscape/etc profiles.
>
> Is this a profile you created yourself? Can't you use the Browse option
> (visible in your screenshot) to select the profile in ACR and apply it
> to the stitched DNG?
>
> > Second question: Is there any chance this PTGUI 13 will also look at
> > the folder where these profiles are stored and give us the ability
> > to apply them?
>
> That depends; if the profiles are embedded in the DNG file perhaps this
> is possible. If the profiles are specific to ACR, I don't think this
> would be possible.
>
> If you could send me some files and explain how to reproduce what you
> are seeing, that would be helpful.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse

> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.

>
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[Matt Hill]

Sorry, I got immersed in some events that drew me away from replying in a timely manner. Thanks for following up.

Joost: Apologies, I missed your original post. 
MH: No Worries ;-)  Thanks for doing that you do. 

Joost: This seems to be an Adobe specific thing which I'm not familiar with. I've tried opening a few raw and DNG files but am only seeing Color/Monotchrome profiles, or Adobe Color/Landscape/etc profiles.

MH:
It's a camera- and illuminant-specific camera profile created via the Calibrite (formerly X-Rite) software using a photograph of a 24-patch ColorChecker card. 
Target: https://calibrite.com/us/product/colorchecker-passport-photo-2/
Software:  https://calibrite.com/us/photo-target/
Video explaining how I did it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLQTSQBd2jc

Joost:

Is this a profile you created yourself? Can't you use the Browse option (visible in your screenshot) to select the profile in ACR and apply it to the stitched DNG?

MH: Yes, I created it. I think that Stan's callout about the "UniqueCameraModelRestriction" possibly may have identified why I cannot apply it when the DNG returns to LrC (great discovery, Stan! Thank you.), but I do not see anyplace in 13 Beta 6 that shows an ability to draw upon either native camera profiles from the manufacturer, Adobe's profiles or custom camera profiles from Calibrite. There must be other software that also generates them, but I am not specifically familiar with what they are. 

If you do apply a change that does not add the [ ] brackets around the camera name when the DNG comes back, this may solve my round-trip problem and be able to apply the custom camera profile and WB upon return to LrC or Ps. 

It would be great to see it inside PTGUI, but if you don't plan on adding it, no worries. I'll continue to edit my color, contrast and brightness within LrC and blend the final compositions in PS where the selection and masking tools are most efficient and specific.

MH: > Second question: Is there any chance this PTGUI 13 will also look at the folder where these profiles are stored and give us the ability to apply them?

Joost: That depends; if the profiles are embedded in the DNG file perhaps this is possible. If the profiles are specific to ACR, I don't think this would be possible.

MH: Out of curiosity, I tried changing the camera profile and saving the metadata to the image files, but this did not affect how 13 Beta 6 loads the images upon opening a project with DNG RAW files.
At present, this process is something that can also be done for Capture One, so it's not specifically for the ACR engine. It's an ICC Profile. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zMHJtAUq90

Joost: If you could send me some files and explain how to reproduce what you are seeing, that would be helpful.
MH: Yes and thank you. I am stress testing the RAW workflow ;-)  

Here you go: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing
Uploading many files now. Please allow 60 minutes from this post for them all to be up on Google Drive

In here: One PTGUI Pro project, one row of DNGs for the sky and another HDR row of DNGs for the landscape.
Also included are "Nikon Z 6 2 3850K.dcp" which is the custom camera profile I used and "Nikon Z 6 II 3850K + WB.xmp" which is the LrC Present I use which applies both the custom camera profile and a neutral white balance from the ColorChecker with one click. 
Here is where the custom camera profiles are stored alongside the Adobe and camera mfr profiles

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse

On Wednesday, May 22, 2024 at 9:54:13 AM UTC-4 PTGui Support wrote:

[Stan Narten]

I think trying to apply DCP support into ptgui is a whole complex can of worms. If it can just pass through the original camera ID through to the dng at export, it makes all post production independent of PT and retains the 16 bit data and dynamic range and camera data of the original raws. This is how Helicon Focus works, the focus stacked DNGs behave exactly like the raws out of the camera, and profile can be applied at any time after stacking. 

Not familiar with C1, but I think it's not locked down to being able to assign an ICC by camera model like ACR.

I might have found a temporary workaround for now though until there is an update: Apply your custom profile and export your raws from lightroom (using the export button), PTGUI merge them, export to DNG. .., this first export will embed your custom DCP in the DNG, then when you bring it back into lightroom the "embedded" profile is actually your custom one.

This works with DCP profiles made by Lumariver Profile Designer as they are not locked and allowed to be embedded, mileage may vary if other software was used to made the profiles as it could be locked down...
–S

[PTGui Support]

Hi Stan and Matt,

I've figured it out in the mean time; the next v13 beta will include
UniqueCameraModel and preserve the DNG profile. So stay tuned!

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 20/06/2024 21:08, Stan Narten wrote:
> I think trying to apply DCP support into ptgui is a whole complex can of
> worms. If it can just pass through the original camera ID through to the
> dng at export, it makes all post production independent of PT and
> retains the 16 bit data and dynamic range and camera data of the
> original raws. This is how Helicon Focus works, the focus stacked DNGs
> behave exactly like the raws out of the camera, and profile can be
> applied at any time after stacking.
>
> Not familiar with C1, but I think it's not locked down to being able to
> assign an ICC by camera model like ACR.
>
> I might have found a temporary workaround for now though until there is
> an update: Apply your custom profile and export your raws from lightroom
> (using the export button), PTGUI merge them, export to DNG. .., this
> first export will embed your custom DCP in the DNG, then when you bring
> it back into lightroom the "embedded" profile is actually your custom one.
>
> This works with DCP profiles made by Lumariver Profile Designer as they
> are not locked and allowed to be embedded, mileage may vary if other
> software was used to made the profiles as it could be locked down...
> –S
> On Thursday, June 20, 2024 at 2:56:28 PM UTC-4 Matt Hill wrote:
>
> Sorry, I got immersed in some events that drew me away from replying
> in a timely manner. Thanks for following up.
> Joost: Apologies, I missed your original post.

> /MH: No Worries ;-)  Thanks for doing that you do. /

>
> Joost: This seems to be an Adobe specific thing which I'm not
> familiar with. I've tried opening a few raw and DNG files but am
> only seeing Color/Monotchrome profiles, or Adobe Color/Landscape/etc
> profiles.

> /

> MH:
> It's a camera- and illuminant-specific camera profile created via
> the Calibrite (formerly X-Rite) software using a photograph of a
> 24-patch ColorChecker card.
> Target:
> https://calibrite.com/us/product/colorchecker-passport-photo-2/
> <https://calibrite.com/us/product/colorchecker-passport-photo-2/>
> Software: https://calibrite.com/us/photo-target/
> <https://calibrite.com/us/photo-target/>
> Video explaining how I did it:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLQTSQBd2jc

> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fLQTSQBd2jc>
> /

> Joost:
>
> Is this a profile you created yourself? Can't you use the Browse
> option (visible in your screenshot) to select the profile in ACR and
> apply it to the stitched DNG?
>

> /MH: Yes, I created it. I think that Stan's callout about the

> "UniqueCameraModelRestriction" possibly may have identified why I
> cannot apply it when the DNG returns to LrC (great discovery, Stan!
> Thank you.), but I do not see anyplace in 13 Beta 6 that shows an
> ability to draw upon either native camera profiles from the
> manufacturer, Adobe's profiles or custom camera profiles from
> Calibrite. There must be other software that also generates them,
> but I am not specifically familiar with what they are.
>
> If you do apply a change that does not add the [ ] brackets around
> the camera name when the DNG comes back, this may solve my
> round-trip problem and be able to apply the custom camera profile

> and WB upon return to LrC or Ps. /
> /It would be great to see it inside PTGUI, but if you don't plan on

> adding it, no worries. I'll continue to edit my color, contrast and
> brightness within LrC and blend the final compositions in PS where

> the selection and masking tools are most efficient and specific./

>
> MH: > Second question: Is there any chance this PTGUI 13 will also
> look at the folder where these profiles are stored and give us the
> ability to apply them?
>
> Joost: That depends; if the profiles are embedded in the DNG file
> perhaps this is possible. If the profiles are specific to ACR, I
> don't think this would be possible.
>

> /MH: Out of curiosity, I tried changing the camera profile and

> saving the metadata to the image files, but this did not affect how
> 13 Beta 6 loads the images upon opening a project with DNG RAW files.
> At present, this process is something that can also be done for
> Capture One, so it's not specifically for the ACR engine. It's an

> ICC Profile. Example: /https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zMHJtAUq90
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zMHJtAUq90>/
> /

> Joost: If you could send me some files and explain how to reproduce
> what you are seeing, that would be helpful.

> /MH: Yes and thank you. //I am stress testing the RAW workflow ;-) /
> /Here you go:
> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing <https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing>
> /Uploading many files now. Please allow 60 minutes from this post

> for them all to be up on Google Drive

> /In here: One PTGUI Pro project, one row of DNGs for the sky and

> another HDR row of DNGs for the landscape.
> Also included are "Nikon Z 6 2 3850K.dcp" which is the custom camera
> profile I used and "Nikon Z 6 II 3850K + WB.xmp" which is the LrC
> Present I use which applies both the custom camera profile and a
> neutral white balance from the ColorChecker with one click.
> Here is where the custom camera profiles are stored alongside the
> Adobe and camera mfr profiles

> Screenshot 2024-06-20 at 2.42.43 PM.png

> /

> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>

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[Matt Hill]

You’re the best! Many thanks. 

-- 
Matt Hill

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[Stan Narten]

Hi Joost,

Hope all is well, I just downloaded the latest Beta 8 in anticipation of this bug fix so that I could incorporate ptGUI into my workflow, but upon creating a DNG from two raw files, and examining the metadata from the resulting DNG, the 

<UniqueCameraModelRestriction>PTGui DNG</UniqueCameraModelRestriction>

is still present in the resultant DNG metadata, disabling the use of any custom camera profiles, do you know if this will be fixed in the next beta?

thanks –Stan

[jm p]

thanks
I understand that I can't support such a feature yet, and when I tried it myself, I got the same result as you.

2024년 7월 16일 (화) 오전 6:21, Stan Narten <st...@stannarten.com>님이 작성:

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[PTGui Support]

Hi Stan,

It only works when using DNG files as source images. Is that what you
are using?

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 15-07-2024 23:21, Stan Narten wrote:
> Hi Joost,
>
> Hope all is well, I just downloaded the latest Beta 8 in anticipation of
> this bug fix so that I could incorporate ptGUI into my workflow, but
> upon creating a DNG from two raw files, and examining the metadata from
> the resulting DNG, the
>
> <UniqueCameraModelRestriction>PTGui DNG</UniqueCameraModelRestriction>
>
> is still present in the resultant DNG metadata, disabling the use of any
> custom camera profiles, do you know if this will be fixed in the next beta?
>
> thanks –Stan
>
>
> On Friday, June 21, 2024 at 3:31:57 AM UTC-4 PTGui Support wrote:
>
> Hi Stan and Matt,
>
> I've figured it out in the mean time; the next v13 beta will include
> UniqueCameraModel and preserve the DNG profile. So stay tuned!
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse

> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>

> https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing <https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing> <https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing <https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1FwKk9r7U6VquVwSWUzOFsJNz8i5E9EiO?usp=sharing>>

> > www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com> <http://www.ptgui.com

> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/ff854c7f-6e99-4a08-a71d-150fe01d7235n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>>.

> >
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[Stan Narten]

Hi Joost,

I was using RAWs as the input, convert to DNGs and it appears to have made all the difference! For a future beta, it would make sense to also keep the same UniqueCameraModelRestriction regardless of the source images being raw or DNG.

The field is passed on from the raw to DNG when converting,  and replacing it with "PTGui DNG" just serves to confuse post processors and limit the ability to edit the final DNG.

best

–Stan