PTGui disappointing results vs Lightroom

[C Laframboise]

Since purchasing PTGui a few weeks ago I have had an opportunity to do a number of Cylindrical panos with it and so far I have been disappointed.  Most of the panos have been challenging for any software but I would have expected PTGui (a dedicated Pano app) to get better results than I could get in Lightroom but this is not the case. I have been using my quadcopter to create rectilinear panos with the cylindrical projection of local beach sunsets.  When I create the pano in Lightroom and then use the same images in PTGui I usually get more stitching errors in PTGui than in Lightroom.  In addition the panos that are created in PTGui are dull, and not as sharp as the same pano created in Lightroom.

In PTGui I usually output tif files, 16bit, no compression and results are usually much worse than in Lightroom for the exact same projection type.  What is going on here?  I would have expected to get better results from a dedicated pano program. In the odd case where Lightroom or Photoshop will not stitch a pano I do find that I can get something usable out of PTGui because I can set my the control points manually.   

Any ideas why I am having these troubles?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Chris

[Keith Martin]

On 15 Apr 2017, at 22:13, C Laframboise wrote:

In PTGui I usually output tif files, 16bit, no compression and results are usually much worse than in Lightroom for the exact same projection type.

You'll need to upload your .pts file and sample images somewhere so people can take a look at the images and how you have things set up in PTGui. (Please don't send attachments to the list, use a file-sharing service such as sendspace.com and post the URL here.)

k

---

Keith Martin
Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)
Technical Editor, MacUser magazine (1997-2015)
http://PanoramaPhotographer.com
http://thatkeith.com
+44 (0)7909541365

---

[C Laframboise]

Keith,

Thanks for your reply.  Very much appreciated.  Here is the link to the folder of files on Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzzag8oc9ubkaxq/Oro14%20Panorama.zip?dl=0

The folder contains all the source images, pts file, and the tif pano created by PTGui.  Also included is the resulting dng Panoramic that Lightroom created so you can see the difference.  All files are RAW unedited, and the resulting Panos from both PTGui and Lightroom have not been edited yet either.  The folder is over 200MB so hopefully it doesn't cause any problems.

Thanks in advance for any suggestions or help you or anyone else can give.

Chris

[PTGui Support]

Hi Chris,

Lightroom certainly did a great job. Seascape panoramas are difficult to
get right, especially when there is a bit of parallax. I think I managed
to get a better stitch from PTGui but it required some work:

https://www.sendspace.com/filegroup/X6%2F5H3vh1hDtVmdsl1rfaA

The Lightroom panorama still has minor stitching errors in the horizon,
the PTGui stitch looks perfect to me in that respect. I've applied a bit
of tone mapping to bring out the shadows but this is a matter of taste
(and it does make the image noise more visible).

Lightroom doesn't give you much opportunity to tweak the result but if
you're happy with the default Lightroom stitch, by all means use Lightroom.

Kind regards,

New House Internet Services BV
Joost Nieuwenhuijse

-----------------------------------------------
PTGui - Photo Stitching Software

www.ptgui.com
For support see: http://www.ptgui.com/faq/
-----------------------------------------------

On 16/04/2017 00:35, C Laframboise wrote:
> Keith,
>
> Thanks for your reply. Very much appreciated. Here is the link to the
> folder of files on Dropbox
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzzag8oc9ubkaxq/Oro14%20Panorama.zip?dl=0
>
> The folder contains all the source images, pts file, and the tif pano
> created by PTGui. Also included is the resulting dng Panoramic that
> Lightroom created so you can see the difference. All files are RAW
> unedited, and the resulting Panos from both PTGui and Lightroom have not
> been edited yet either. The folder is over 200MB so hopefully it
> doesn't cause any problems.
>
> Thanks in advance for any suggestions or help you or anyone else can give.
>
> Chris
>
> On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 5:56:02 PM UTC-4, thatkeith wrote:
>
> On 15 Apr 2017, at 22:13, C Laframboise wrote:
>
> In PTGui I usually output tif files, 16bit, no compression and
> results are usually much worse than in Lightroom for the exact
> same projection type.
>
> You'll need to upload your .pts file and sample images somewhere so
> people can take a look at the images and how you have things set up
> in PTGui. (Please don't send attachments to the list, use a

> file-sharing service such as sendspace.com <http://sendspace.com>

> and post the URL here.)
>
> k
>

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
> Keith Martin
> Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)
> Technical Editor, MacUser magazine (1997-2015)

> http://PanoramaPhotographer.com <http://PanoramaPhotographer.com>
> http://thatkeith.com
> +44 (0)7909541365
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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[John Houghton]

On Saturday, April 15, 2017 at 11:35:23 PM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

Thanks for your reply.  Very much appreciated.  Here is the link to the folder of files on Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pzzag8oc9ubkaxq/Oro14%20Panorama.zip?dl=0

The folder contains all the source images, pts file, and the tif pano created by PTGui.  Also included is the resulting dng Panoramic that Lightroom created so you can see the difference.  All files are RAW unedited, and the resulting Panos from both PTGui and Lightroom have not been edited yet either.  The folder is over 200MB so hopefully it doesn't cause any problems.

 Chris, The cause of the misalignments is parallax.  PTGui expects all the shots to be taken from exactly the same viewpoint, which is achieved by mounting the camera such that it rotates about the entrance pupil of the lens (aka the "no-parallax point").  The degree of parallax present is evident from this animated gif file: https://www.sendspace.com/file/zsm55s .

John

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 8:33:10 AM UTC+1, John Houghton wrote:

 Chris, The cause of the misalignments is parallax.....

I did manage to get a good stitch with PTGui using only three of the supplied images: https://www.sendspace.com/file/upianw .

This is as output by PTGui but with just one minor (but obvious) glitch in the shore line corrected.  I used a special option in PTGui for aligning straight line features, applied here on the horizon.  This employs an alternative Panorama Tools optimizer that supports the straight line control points.

John

 

[PTGui Support]

Hi John, you could also use horizontal line control points because they
are placed on the horizon only (in the Optimizer tab choose 'include in
single pass'). This also allows you to use viewpoint correction because
you don't have to use the Panotools optimizer.

Kind regards,

New House Internet Services BV
Joost Nieuwenhuijse

-----------------------------------------------
PTGui - Photo Stitching Software

www.ptgui.com
For support see: http://www.ptgui.com/faq/
-----------------------------------------------

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[John Houghton]

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:22:24 AM UTC+1, PTGui Support wrote:

Hi John, you could also use horizontal line control points because they
are placed on the horizon only (in the Optimizer tab choose 'include in
single pass'). This also allows you to use viewpoint correction because
you don't have to use the Panotools optimizer.

Joost, Yes, but horizontal line control points don't guarantee to get the horizon straight and perfectly aligned.  They need to be intelligently placed.  And, of course, they cannot be used to straighten a straight line feature that is not horizontal.

John

[C Laframboise]

Joost,

Thanks for your time and effort to help me out.  I do appreciate it.  Your stitch is better than Lightroom.  Aside from setting control points manually, how did you manage to remove the stitching errors on the horizon?  For a Seascape pano at dusk I often find it hard to find good control points since there are usually a lack of distinquishing features to choose from. Is there a way of straightening the horizon without using control points and without causing noticeable distortion on the trees or other features?  In this case I shot the Pano from my quadcopter and there is no way I know of to avoid parallax errors.  When I do land based panoramas I usually use a dedicated pano head (Kaiden Kiwi+) and have found the nodal point of my lens so I usually have no parallax errors.

I agree that Lightroom doesn't give much opportunity to tweak the result and that's why I purchased PTGui.  I tried it on a vertical panorama from the ground that no other software was able to stitch in a reasonable manner.  Although it was a lot of work the ability to manually set control points and tweak the image to get a good pano was what sold me on PTGui.

Why is the resulting image in Lightroom more vibrant and less washed out when the same images were used? Does this have to do with the fact that Lightroom can create a dng panorama whereas PTGui cannot?  I only shoot in RAW on any camera I use so am wondering if this is why since no image info is discarded in a RAW image file.

Thanks,

Chris

[C Laframboise]

Hi John,

Thank you for taking the time to work on my pano.  Much appreciated. 

With regard to the parallax errors, I shot from my quadcopter and as far as I know there is no way to avoid parallax errors.  It was a calm night so that would have helped.  In all other panos I shoot I usually use my Kaiden Kiwi+ tripod head and set it up for the nodal point of the lens I am using so usually don't have to deal with parallax errors.

Where is the special option for aligning straight line features in PTGui?  I have the basic version not the pro version. Is it only available in the pro version?

Thanks,

Chris

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 3:54:34 PM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

Where is the special option for aligning straight line features in PTGui?  I have the basic version not the pro version. Is it only available in the pro version?

The standard version is able to run the PanoTools optimizer too.  Details of the download and installation can be found here: http://www.ptgui.com/panotools.html .  You  select the optimizer at the bottom of the Advanced panel of the Optimizer tab.

The idea is that on the Control Points tab you select the control point type at the bottom left - initially selecting  New Line (t3) - and then add points of that type at intervals along one particular line feature that would be expected to be straight in the current output projection.  Points are not added on identical features in the two windows - just somewhere along the straight edge in whatever images that edge happens to pass through.  If you have more than one straight line feature that you want to align, create t4, t5, t6 points etc along each (ie. one cp type per line).  The optimizer will then attempt to align the sets of control points into their respective straight lines.  Note that the optimizer doesn't warp or bend the images in any special way to align the points.  This is just further data used in the general optimization process. 

BTW, beware of the selected control point type changing back to the default when switching images in the windows.  If you happen to accidentally create normal points, you can right click on them and change the type as required.

For further information, see the Help for this screen option on the Help menu when the Control Points tab is being used.

I have uploaded my project file to https://www.sendspace.com/file/tla56l .  Note that it uses tiff files generated from the raw files supplied, with a fixed white balance selected instead of the auto camera setting.  Also, the lens parameters have been fixed to settings evaluated in a previous project with the same images, which gave the small misalignments you reported. The project simply concentrated on getting the horizon flat and straight.  A few vertical line control points were used to position the images horizontally. Think of washing on a clothes line with pegs=control points and a peg between sheets to space them out along the line!

I hope that helps.

John

John

[C Laframboise]

Hi John,

This does help.  I have downloaded Panorama Tools Optimizer and have linked it to PTGui.  I am using another pano taken at the same time with a broken horizon and am trying to get it to line up using the new line (t3) feature.  So far I haven't had any luck as it just looks the same as before with a broken line.  I am assuming you have to select cp in multiple or all of the images then run the optimizer.  I have made sure the new line type is selected but maybe I need to select a lot more new line cp in each image then optimize.  Running out of time right now so I will work on it again tonight to see if I can get it to work.

Chris

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 6:29:30 PM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

Hi John,

This does help.  I have downloaded Panorama Tools Optimizer and have linked it to PTGui.  I am using another pano taken at the same time with a broken horizon and am trying to get it to line up using the new line (t3) feature.  So far I haven't had any luck as it just looks the same as before with a broken line.  I am assuming you have to select cp in multiple or all of the images then run the optimizer.  I have made sure the new line type is selected but maybe I need to select a lot more new line cp in each image then optimize.  Running out of time right now so I will work on it again tonight to see if I can get it to work.

The important point to remember is that when parallax rears its ugly head, you cannot simultaneously align everything.  You may align the horizon perfectly but not features in the foreground, say.  And vice versa.  Misalignments in some parts of the panorama may be unnoticeable because they get lost in the general detail.  OTOH, the horizon reveals the slightest mismatch mercilessly.  Which is why in my project file I chose to optimize the horizon into perfect alignment and left the rest of the panorama to its own devices.

John

[Erik Krause]

Am 16.04.2017 um 19:29 schrieb C Laframboise:
> I have made sure the new line type is
> selected but maybe I need to select a lot more new line cp in each image
> then optimize.

Please note that you need at least two control point pairs to define one
straight line, all four points at a distance from each other, two in
each image.

--
Erik Krause

[C Laframboise]

I must be doing something wrong.  I still can't get the horizon to align any better than it does when I don't use the new line t3 type.  If I understand all of this correctly I align the images using the normal cp's that PTGui selects then go back and add new line cp's to the horizon.  I choose 1 cp on the horizon on one image then the matching one in the approximate area on the next image.  I have done this for at least 4 cp's on each image and still end up with the same result after optimizing and re-doing the pano.  I don't seem to be able to duplicate what you did John or what Joost did. 

Chris

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, April 16, 2017 at 10:48:34 PM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

I must be doing something wrong.  I still can't get the horizon to align any better than it does when I don't use the new line t3 type.  If I understand all of this correctly I align the images using the normal cp's that PTGui selects then go back and add new line cp's to the horizon.  I choose 1 cp on the horizon on one image then the matching one in the approximate area on the next image.  I have done this for at least 4 cp's on each image and still end up with the same result after optimizing and re-doing the pano.  I don't seem to be able to duplicate what you did John or what Joost did. 

Chris, you haven't duplicated what I did because you are not doing what I did.  If you look at my project file, you will see that there are very few control points.  Control points serve two different purposes:  one is to align identical features in overlapping images, and the other is to enable the optimizer to evaluate lens distortion correction parameters.  As few as two points per overlap are sufficient to align the images with each other, but many points well distributed are needed to evaluate lens distortions.  The lens correction  parameters don't change from run to run, assuming no physical changes to the lens settings, so you can evaluate these once in a carefully executed calibration project and apply them to all future projects.  You then only need very few points to align the images well, with the lens parameters excluded from the optimization (on the optimizer's advanced panel).

So what I did was to do a normal stitch first, which was not perfectly successful as it was marred by small parallax glitches.  However, I chose to regard the lens parameters evaluated in that run as a reasonable calibration set.  These parameters were then used in the second project, which concentrated on getting the horizon perfectly straight and level, which required few control points.  Inevitably, there will be parallax glitches elsewhere, but in areas where they will be less obvious.  In the event, there was only one bad glitch that was simple to correct in Photoshop.

John

[PTGui Support]

Hi Chris,

After adding control points on the horizon, the main trick was to enable
viewpoint correction to cope with the parallax errors. Learn more about
it here:

http://www.ptgui.com/examples/vptutorial.html

I've enabled viewpoint correction for all images except one (I used only
3 of your images, plenty of overlap). As you can read above viewpoint
correction only works for flat surfaces. In your photos the ground,
water and opposite shore form a (more or less) flat surface. Remove all
control points from elevated features such as the trees.

In this case it actually was possible to place real control points on
the opposite shoreside because some tiny features can be identified. For
a true seaside panorama this is not possible; you would need to resort
to line-type control points (see John's reply) or 'horizontal line'
control points. In the latter case it's important to select in the
Optimizer tab (in advanced mode): hor/vert control points: include in
single pass. The included Help gives more information. Also enable
pitch/roll optimization for all images to allow the optimizer to align
the scene's horizon with the panoramic horizon.

As for the differences in vibrancy and color, I think this is entirely
due to raw conversion. Raw/dng files contain raw sensor data and they
need to be converted to actual image files. The conversion can be done
in many ways. PTGui comes with araw converter (dcraw) but you cannot
tweak the raw conversion settings, so if you're not satisfied with the
look of the images you need to use a dedicated raw converter. See 2.12:
http://www.ptgui.com/support.html#2_12
Dcraw doesn't do noise & hot pixel removal, so for this panorama I'd
certainly do the raw conversion in another raw converter.

But with tone mapping enabled you have some settings to tweak in the
Tone Mapping settings, a.o. to increase contrast and saturation. Might
work in this case.

Hope this helps!

Kind regards,

New House Internet Services BV
Joost Nieuwenhuijse

-----------------------------------------------
PTGui - Photo Stitching Software

www.ptgui.com
For support see: http://www.ptgui.com/faq/
-----------------------------------------------

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> >
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> >
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> > Senior Lecturer, LCC (University of the Arts London)
> > Technical Editor, MacUser magazine (1997-2015)
> > http://PanoramaPhotographer.com

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[C Laframboise]

John,

Thank you for your reply and your tips and suggestions.  When I get more time tonight I will try to apply your suggestions to see if I can get a better stitch on some of my panos that had more noticeable breaks in the horizon. The plus side is that I am learning how to use all of the features of PTGui more.

Chris

[C Laframboise]

Joost,

Thanks for your reply.  I only have the standard version of PTGui so I currently can't try out viewpoint correction to see if it would be suitable for me.  Is there a way to trial the pro version to try this feature out without messing up my standard version?

The panos I do in PTGui can always be tweaked in Photoshop so I am not too worried - just more steps and more time which I have little of.

Thanks,

Chris

[John Houghton]

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 6:16:21 PM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

Joost,

Thanks for your reply.  I only have the standard version of PTGui so I currently can't try out viewpoint correction to see if it would be suitable for me.  Is there a way to trial the pro version to try this feature out without messing up my standard version?

Chris, You can download the free trial pro version at the Download page of the PTGui web site.  It's fully functional but adds watermarks to the output.  You can install it in a different folder to the standard version already installed and still use both.  There's a special price to upgrade from the standard version to the pro version should you want to.

John

[C Laframboise]

Thanks John I think I will give the trial of the pro version a try.  I haven't had much luck with fixing the breaks in my horizon  on my dusk panos using the new line t3 cps.  Every time I think I have it right I get a completely distorted pano that looks like it was warped and contorted.

Chris

[John Houghton]

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 3:22:37 AM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

Thanks John I think I will give the trial of the pro version a try.  I haven't had much luck with fixing the breaks in my horizon  on my dusk panos using the new line t3 cps.  Every time I think I have it right I get a completely distorted pano that looks like it was warped and contorted.

Chris, the t3 points are simple and effective, and if you are excluding the lens parameters from your optimization the cause of the major distortion must lie in the control points elsewhere in the images.  In my example stitch, I used  only one other control point at each of the two image overlaps.  These were vertical line points (type t1).  These allow the images to shift freely in the vertical direction to facilitate the alignment of the horizon segments, but permit the images to shift sideways to equalize the x coordinates of the points so that the points align vertically.

John

[C Laframboise]

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply.  I have tried it both ways - just the t3 points and a t1 point, and with the regular ones that the program chooses plus the t3 and t1 points. The last one definitely messes with the image but the image generated from just the t3 and t1 points wasn't any better than letting the program choose the points (no t3 or t1 cps).  I think my problem is with the lens parameters.  When I just used the t3 and t1 points my lens parameters and the pano size were all out of wack even though I did not touch this setting.  I will continue to work on trying to get this right.  Thanks for all of your help.

Chris

[John Houghton]

On Friday, April 21, 2017 at 12:57:33 PM UTC+1, C Laframboise wrote:

 When I just used the t3 and t1 points my lens parameters and the pano size were all out of wack even though I did not touch this setting.

By all means let us have a further set of images and your project file and it may then be possible to identify what you are doing wrong. 

John

[C Laframboise]

Hi John,

Thanks for your reply.  I have been busy so haven't had a chance to revisit my panos but when I do (maybe in a few days) I'll post the images and the project file for the community to take a look at.  I will probably try again a few more times to see if I can get it right and then if not post here for some help.

Chris