Version 12.8 on a MacBook Pro M1 Pro and Monterey
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Dani Stein
Nov 4, 2021, 8:48:04 AM11/4/21
to PTGui Support
Hi, not sure if my new setup is the problem. Installed a fresh copy of PTgui on a new MacBook Pro M1 Pro with osX 12.0.1
Previously stitched images won't align (PTGui was unable to detect control points).
Wired is, I have a Samyang 12mm so the images don't have EXIF data. When I insert the Focal length it first registers right but when aligning images and after getting the message that PTGui couldn't find control points I see that the focal length has set itself to any random value. Sometimes 9mm sometimes 26mm and so on.
PTGui Support
Nov 4, 2021, 9:24:52 AM11/4/21
to pt...@googlegroups.com
Hi Dani,
I don't think it would be related to the M1 or Monterey. Could you make
your images available for download so I can see what's going on?
Kind regards,
Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com
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I don't think it would be related to the M1 or Monterey. Could you make
your images available for download so I can see what's going on?
Kind regards,
Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Dani Stein
Nov 4, 2021, 9:53:28 AM11/4/21
to PTGui Support
Hi Joost,
Thank you! It did happened with every image I tried, also ones from previous projects. What I have done in the end is to open an old project and used the lens settings from the project to create a lens profile in the lens database. Now when I apply this profile it seems to do the trick and PTGui is able to align the images properly. It is late here already but tomorrow I will try with more images. If anything I will let you know.
Thanks for the fast reply!
Regards,
Daniel
PTGui Support
Nov 4, 2021, 10:10:56 AM11/4/21
to pt...@googlegroups.com
Hi Dani,
Be sure to choose the proper lens type: there's a Samyang 12mm F2.8 ED
AS NCS Fisheye, and a Samyang 12mm f/2.0 rectilinear (non-fisheye) lens.
For the fisheye lens PTGui includes a lens profile in the drop down list
in the 'Focal Length' popup window. For the rectilinear lens you can use
the 'Regular lens (not a fisheye)' setting.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/a6d23ff7-44bb-4b46-9016-8c419f5f8f60n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Be sure to choose the proper lens type: there's a Samyang 12mm F2.8 ED
AS NCS Fisheye, and a Samyang 12mm f/2.0 rectilinear (non-fisheye) lens.
For the fisheye lens PTGui includes a lens profile in the drop down list
in the 'Focal Length' popup window. For the rectilinear lens you can use
the 'Regular lens (not a fisheye)' setting.
On 04/11/2021 14:53, Dani Stein wrote:
> Hi Joost,
>
> Thank you! It did happened with every image I tried, also ones from
> previous projects. What I have done in the end is to open an old project
> and used the lens settings from the project to create a lens profile in
> the lens database. Now when I apply this profile it seems to do the
> trick and PTGui is able to align the images properly. It is late here
> already but tomorrow I will try with more images. If anything I will let
> you know.
>
> Thanks for the fast reply!
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 9:24:52 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support wrote:
>
> Hi Dani,
>
> I don't think it would be related to the M1 or Monterey. Could you make
> your images available for download so I can see what's going on?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>
> Hi Joost,
>
> Thank you! It did happened with every image I tried, also ones from
> previous projects. What I have done in the end is to open an old project
> and used the lens settings from the project to create a lens profile in
> the lens database. Now when I apply this profile it seems to do the
> trick and PTGui is able to align the images properly. It is late here
> already but tomorrow I will try with more images. If anything I will let
> you know.
>
> Thanks for the fast reply!
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 9:24:52 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support wrote:
>
> Hi Dani,
>
> I don't think it would be related to the M1 or Monterey. Could you make
> your images available for download so I can see what's going on?
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
>
> On 04/11/2021 13:48, Dani Stein wrote:
> > Hi, not sure if my new setup is the problem. Installed a fresh
> copy of
> > PTgui on a new MacBook Pro M1 Pro with osX 12.0.1
> >
> > Previously stitched images won't align (PTGui was unable to detect
> > control points).
> >
> > Wired is, I have a Samyang 12mm so the images don't have EXIF
> data. When
> > I insert the Focal length it first registers right but when aligning
> > images and after getting the message that PTGui couldn't find
> control
> > points I see that the focal length has set itself to any random
> value.
> > Sometimes 9mm sometimes 26mm and so on.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "PTGui Support" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com>
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> On 04/11/2021 13:48, Dani Stein wrote:
> > Hi, not sure if my new setup is the problem. Installed a fresh
> copy of
> > PTgui on a new MacBook Pro M1 Pro with osX 12.0.1
> >
> > Previously stitched images won't align (PTGui was unable to detect
> > control points).
> >
> > Wired is, I have a Samyang 12mm so the images don't have EXIF
> data. When
> > I insert the Focal length it first registers right but when aligning
> > images and after getting the message that PTGui couldn't find
> control
> > points I see that the focal length has set itself to any random
> value.
> > Sometimes 9mm sometimes 26mm and so on.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "PTGui Support" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
> send
> > an email to ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com>.
> > To view this discussion on the web visit
> >
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com>
>
> >
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/51f674fc-6ddf-4b02-8844-28627212f5f3n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
>
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>
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Dani Stein
Nov 4, 2021, 10:29:14 AM11/4/21
to PTGui Support
Hi Joost,
That is the thing, I can't seem to find those lens profiles that PTGui provides. I remember they where on my old machine but on the new one with a fresh install the list is empty. I actually installed PTGui, re-downloaded and reinstalled as I thought there was a problem during the install. Any possibility that I would be able to install those profiles manually?
Regards,
Daniel
PTGui Support
Nov 4, 2021, 11:58:52 AM11/4/21
to pt...@googlegroups.com
You don't need any lens database entries.
Try this:
- start PTGui
- load your images
- a window titled 'Focal Length' will popup
- enter 12mm
- now either select the Samyang 12mm fisheye, or select 'Regular lens
(not a fisheye)' and press OK.
That should be all you need to do. Proceed with Align Images.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/a6d23ff7-44bb-4b46-9016-8c419f5f8f60n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/a6d23ff7-44bb-4b46-9016-8c419f5f8f60n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/c5dbd175-3bc1-43da-a213-4d3b7a952b66n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
Try this:
- start PTGui
- load your images
- a window titled 'Focal Length' will popup
- enter 12mm
- now either select the Samyang 12mm fisheye, or select 'Regular lens
(not a fisheye)' and press OK.
That should be all you need to do. Proceed with Align Images.
On 04/11/2021 15:29, Dani Stein wrote:
> Hi Joost,
>
> Hi Joost,
>
> That is the thing, I can't seem to find those lens profiles that PTGui
> provides. I remember they where on my old machine but on the new one
> with a fresh install the list is empty. I actually installed PTGui,
> re-downloaded and reinstalled as I thought there was a problem during
> the install. Any possibility that I would be able to install those
> profiles manually?
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 10:10:56 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support wrote:
>
> Hi Dani,
>
> Be sure to choose the proper lens type: there's a Samyang 12mm F2.8 ED
> AS NCS Fisheye, and a Samyang 12mm f/2.0 rectilinear (non-fisheye)
> lens.
>
> For the fisheye lens PTGui includes a lens profile in the drop down
> list
> in the 'Focal Length' popup window. For the rectilinear lens you can
> use
> the 'Regular lens (not a fisheye)' setting.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>
> provides. I remember they where on my old machine but on the new one
> with a fresh install the list is empty. I actually installed PTGui,
> re-downloaded and reinstalled as I thought there was a problem during
> the install. Any possibility that I would be able to install those
> profiles manually?
>
> Regards,
> Daniel
>
> On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 10:10:56 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support wrote:
>
> Hi Dani,
>
> Be sure to choose the proper lens type: there's a Samyang 12mm F2.8 ED
> AS NCS Fisheye, and a Samyang 12mm f/2.0 rectilinear (non-fisheye)
> lens.
>
> For the fisheye lens PTGui includes a lens profile in the drop down
> list
> in the 'Focal Length' popup window. For the rectilinear lens you can
> use
> the 'Regular lens (not a fisheye)' setting.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
>
> On 04/11/2021 14:53, Dani Stein wrote:
> > Hi Joost,
> >
> > Thank you! It did happened with every image I tried, also ones from
> > previous projects. What I have done in the end is to open an old
> project
> > and used the lens settings from the project to create a lens
> profile in
> > the lens database. Now when I apply this profile it seems to do the
> > trick and PTGui is able to align the images properly. It is late
> here
> > already but tomorrow I will try with more images. If anything I
> will let
> > you know.
> >
> > Thanks for the fast reply!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> > On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 9:24:52 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dani,
> >
> > I don't think it would be related to the M1 or Monterey. Could
> you make
> > your images available for download so I can see what's going on?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> > www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com> <http://www.ptgui.com
> On 04/11/2021 14:53, Dani Stein wrote:
> > Hi Joost,
> >
> > Thank you! It did happened with every image I tried, also ones from
> > previous projects. What I have done in the end is to open an old
> project
> > and used the lens settings from the project to create a lens
> profile in
> > the lens database. Now when I apply this profile it seems to do the
> > trick and PTGui is able to align the images properly. It is late
> here
> > already but tomorrow I will try with more images. If anything I
> will let
> > you know.
> >
> > Thanks for the fast reply!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Daniel
> >
> > On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 9:24:52 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support
> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Dani,
> >
> > I don't think it would be related to the M1 or Monterey. Could
> you make
> > your images available for download so I can see what's going on?
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/a6d23ff7-44bb-4b46-9016-8c419f5f8f60n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
>
> --
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> <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com>.
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>
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Dani Stein
Nov 4, 2021, 7:43:11 PM11/4/21
to PTGui Support
Hi Joost,
Thank you! I did as you said and, of course, it worked. Sorry, I can't remember that I had to do it this way and I first installed PTGui but this already some time ago and probably I followed the manual back then.
Thanks for your time and apologies for not consulting the manual this time 🤦♂️
Regards,
Daniel
Anton Sorokoletov
Nov 10, 2021, 5:55:25 AM11/10/21
to PTGui Support
Hello. I have problem with ptgui 12.8 on Mac Os Monterey. When i put files ptgui take exif data with my Nikkor 20mm. But after optimizetion even keep lens 20mm ptgui show lens like 16mm, 18mm or more 23 mm. So it mistakes with focal lens. In ptgui 10 not this problem.
пятница, 5 ноября 2021 г. в 02:43:11 UTC+3, danisteinp...@gmail.com:
PTGui Support
Nov 10, 2021, 6:02:32 AM11/10/21
to pt...@googlegroups.com
Hi Anton,
This is normal, please see 3.6:
https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>
> <http://www.ptgui.com>> <http://www.ptgui.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/c5dbd175-3bc1-43da-a213-4d3b7a952b66n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/c5dbd175-3bc1-43da-a213-4d3b7a952b66n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/d1c55652-4363-4ec6-860a-b0ce75b0217an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
This is normal, please see 3.6:
https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/c5dbd175-3bc1-43da-a213-4d3b7a952b66n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
>
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Anton Sorokoletov
Nov 10, 2021, 8:17:36 AM11/10/21
to PTGui Support
Joost it's normal when on my 20mm nikkor i see 20.5. Yesterday when i had 18mm or 23mm i get bad result after optimization. So from "very good" o "very bad" and crash control points. Its on ptgui 12.8 but on ptgui 10 everything ok. i would not be write if i didn't see this problem, but this problem appear after update mac os.
среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 14:02:32 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
PTGui Support
Nov 10, 2021, 9:15:33 AM11/10/21
to pt...@googlegroups.com
Hi Anton,
I can't imagine the macos version would have any influence on the
optimization.
If you can make the project available for download I'd be happy to take
a look.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/d1c55652-4363-4ec6-860a-b0ce75b0217an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/d1c55652-4363-4ec6-860a-b0ce75b0217an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/4e71cdc3-9090-4ddb-a014-743c7ff3dbffn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>.
I can't imagine the macos version would have any influence on the
optimization.
If you can make the project available for download I'd be happy to take
a look.
On 10/11/2021 14:17, Anton Sorokoletov wrote:
>
> Joost it's normal when on my 20mm nikkor i see 20.5. Yesterday when i
> had 18mm or 23mm i get bad result after optimization. So from "very
> good" o "very bad" and crash control points. Its on ptgui 12.8 but on
> ptgui 10 everything ok. i would not be write if i didn't see this
> problem, but this problem appear after update mac os.
> среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 14:02:32 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
>
> Hi Anton,
>
> This is normal, please see 3.6:
> https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>
>
> Joost it's normal when on my 20mm nikkor i see 20.5. Yesterday when i
> had 18mm or 23mm i get bad result after optimization. So from "very
> good" o "very bad" and crash control points. Its on ptgui 12.8 but on
> ptgui 10 everything ok. i would not be write if i didn't see this
> problem, but this problem appear after update mac os.
> среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 14:02:32 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
>
> Hi Anton,
>
> This is normal, please see 3.6:
> https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6>
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ptgui/d1c55652-4363-4ec6-860a-b0ce75b0217an%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>>.
>
>
> --
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>
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Anton Sorokoletov
Nov 11, 2021, 3:51:47 AM11/11/21
to PTGui Support
Joost what mail i can send you panorama?
среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 17:15:33 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
> an email to ptgui+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
PTGui Support
Nov 11, 2021, 3:53:19 AM11/11/21
to pt...@googlegroups.com
You can share the files with me at sup...@ptgui.com.
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>>.
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>>.
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> > > > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
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On 11/11/2021 09:51, Anton Sorokoletov wrote:
> Joost what mail i can send you panorama?
>
> среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 17:15:33 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
>
> Hi Anton,
>
> I can't imagine the macos version would have any influence on the
> optimization.
>
> If you can make the project available for download I'd be happy to take
> a look.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>
> Joost what mail i can send you panorama?
>
> среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 17:15:33 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
>
> Hi Anton,
>
> I can't imagine the macos version would have any influence on the
> optimization.
>
> If you can make the project available for download I'd be happy to take
> a look.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse
>
> On 10/11/2021 14:17, Anton Sorokoletov wrote:
> >
> > Joost it's normal when on my 20mm nikkor i see 20.5. Yesterday
> when i
> > had 18mm or 23mm i get bad result after optimization. So from "very
> > good" o "very bad" and crash control points. Its on ptgui 12.8
> but on
> > ptgui 10 everything ok. i would not be write if i didn't see this
> > problem, but this problem appear after update mac os.
> > среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 14:02:32 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
> >
> > Hi Anton,
> >
> > This is normal, please see 3.6:
> > https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6>
> > <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6>>
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> On 10/11/2021 14:17, Anton Sorokoletov wrote:
> >
> > Joost it's normal when on my 20mm nikkor i see 20.5. Yesterday
> when i
> > had 18mm or 23mm i get bad result after optimization. So from "very
> > good" o "very bad" and crash control points. Its on ptgui 12.8
> but on
> > ptgui 10 everything ok. i would not be write if i didn't see this
> > problem, but this problem appear after update mac os.
> > среда, 10 ноября 2021 г. в 14:02:32 UTC+3, PTGui Support:
> >
> > Hi Anton,
> >
> > This is normal, please see 3.6:
> > https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6>
> > <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6
> <https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_6>>
> >
> > Kind regards,
> >
> > Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> > On 10/11/2021 11:55, Anton Sorokoletov wrote:
> > > Hello. I have problem with ptgui 12.8 on Mac Os Monterey. When
> i put
> > > files ptgui take exif data with my Nikkor 20mm. But after
> > optimizetion
> > > even keep lens 20mm ptgui show lens like 16mm, 18mm or more 23
> > mm. So it
> > > mistakes with focal lens. In ptgui 10 not this problem.
> > >
> > > пятница, 5 ноября 2021 г. в 02:43:11 UTC+3,
> danisteinp...@gmail.com <mailto:danisteinp...@gmail.com>:
> > > Hello. I have problem with ptgui 12.8 on Mac Os Monterey. When
> i put
> > > files ptgui take exif data with my Nikkor 20mm. But after
> > optimizetion
> > > even keep lens 20mm ptgui show lens like 16mm, 18mm or more 23
> > mm. So it
> > > mistakes with focal lens. In ptgui 10 not this problem.
> > >
> > > пятница, 5 ноября 2021 г. в 02:43:11 UTC+3,
> > >
> > > Hi Joost,
> > >
> > > Thank you! I did as you said and, of course, it worked. Sorry, I
> > > can't remember that I had to do it this way and I first installed
> > > PTGui but this already some time ago and probably I followed the
> > > manual back then.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time and apologies for not consulting the manual
> > > this time 🤦♂️
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:58:52 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > You don't need any lens database entries.
> > >
> > > Try this:
> > > - start PTGui
> > > - load your images
> > > - a window titled 'Focal Length' will popup
> > > - enter 12mm
> > > - now either select the Samyang 12mm fisheye, or select 'Regular
> > > lens
> > > (not a fisheye)' and press OK.
> > >
> > > That should be all you need to do. Proceed with Align Images.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> > > www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com> <http://www.ptgui.com
> > > Hi Joost,
> > >
> > > Thank you! I did as you said and, of course, it worked. Sorry, I
> > > can't remember that I had to do it this way and I first installed
> > > PTGui but this already some time ago and probably I followed the
> > > manual back then.
> > >
> > > Thanks for your time and apologies for not consulting the manual
> > > this time 🤦♂️
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Daniel
> > >
> > > On Thursday, November 4, 2021 at 11:58:52 PM UTC+8 PTGui Support
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > You don't need any lens database entries.
> > >
> > > Try this:
> > > - start PTGui
> > > - load your images
> > > - a window titled 'Focal Length' will popup
> > > - enter 12mm
> > > - now either select the Samyang 12mm fisheye, or select 'Regular
> > > lens
> > > (not a fisheye)' and press OK.
> > >
> > > That should be all you need to do. Proceed with Align Images.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > >
> > > Joost Nieuwenhuijse
> > > www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com> <http://www.ptgui.com
> > > > > > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>>.
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> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > > > <mailto:ptgui+un...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:ptgui%2Bun...@googlegroups.com>>.
> > > > To view this discussion on the web visit
> > > >
> > >
> >
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