Strange "shadows" from stitching?

[wus]

I did a HDR pano which exhibits strange "shadows", visible in the sky and reflected sky in the water:After I clicked"Jetzt optimieren" ...

... it turned out only marginally better:

How can I get a smoothly stitched sky?

I'm using PTGui Pro 11.32, my camera is a Sony RX100VI

[PTGui Support]

Hi,

I assume the vignetting is somehow present in your source images. Did
you check this?

If you make the source images and project file available I'd be happy to
take a look. Just a section of the panorama would be sufficient, I won't
need all the images.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 27/04/2021 15:26, wus wrote:
> I did a HDR pano which exhibits strange "shadows", visible in the sky

> and reflected sky in the water:Screenshot 2021-04-27 15.08.37-.pngAfter

> I clicked"Jetzt optimieren" ...

> Screenshot 2021-04-27 15.09.59-.png
> ... it turned out only marginally better:

> Screenshot 2021-04-27 15.16.25-.png
> How can I get a smoothly stitched sky?
>
> I'm using PTGui Pro 11.32, my camera is a Sony RX100VI
>

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[Viktoria Ciglar]

Hi,

i have a new ptgui pro 12.0 and it is not the same on a new computer.

On old computer settings are different, and maybe it is that a reason. 

PTGUI 12.0

PTGUI 11.30 

0

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[PTGui Support]

Hi Viktoria,

Some things changed in PTGui 12, in particular HDR handling. See 3.30:
https://www.ptgui.com/support.html#3_30

PTGui 11 can still be downloaded here:
https://www.ptgui.com/download.html?version=113200

If you need more help just let me know. But please post a new message
instead of replying to this one, because this was a different topic.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 27/04/2021 16:06, Viktoria Ciglar wrote:
> Hi,
>
> i have a new ptgui pro 12.0 and it is not the same on a new computer.
> On old computer settings are different, and maybe it is that a reason.
>

> *PTGUI 12.0*
>
> image.png
>
> *PTGUI 11.30 *
>
> image.png0

>
>
>
>
>
> uto, 27. tra 2021. u 15:26 wus <wuschw...@gmail.com

> <mailto:wuschw...@gmail.com>> napisao je:

>
> I did a HDR pano which exhibits strange "shadows", visible in the

> sky and reflected sky in the water:Screenshot 2021-04-27
> 15.08.37-.pngAfter I clicked"Jetzt optimieren" ...

> Screenshot 2021-04-27 15.09.59-.png
> ... it turned out only marginally better:

> Screenshot 2021-04-27 15.16.25-.png
> How can I get a smoothly stitched sky?
>
> I'm using PTGui Pro 11.32, my camera is a Sony RX100VI
>
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>
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[wus]

Hello Joost,

I don't want to publish my source images here. Do you have a private place where I can upload the project file and a couple of my source images to strictly you only?

To answer your questions - no I didn't "check" if the vignetting is present in my source images, simply because I don't know how I could check this. However, I can tell you that the images that the Sony RX100VI produces normally exhibit no visible vignetting - the camera firmware applies quite extensive corrections to all sorts of lens shortcomings, including vignetting. When I look at RAWs from the camera in CaptureOne without applying the camera profile, wideangle shots exhibit quite heavy distortion and also vignetting - but both are perfectly corrected by the in-camera JPEG processing, and also in CaptureOne applying the camera profile (but I'm using JPEGs out of cam in this project). Further, my source pictures were taken at the long end of the zoom range where vignetting is generally minimal, and I also stopped down to f5 to make sure the camera produces the best possible image quality. That's why I don't think that vignetting of the source images is the reason for the strange "shadow pattern" in my stitched pano.

Thanks for looking into this,

Wolfgang

[John Houghton]

Wolfgang, You can email to support at ptgui.com .  It would be a good idea to supply the raw images in addition to the "perfectly corrected" versions.  PTGui is likely to work better with uncorrected images.

John

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

I can only explain the strong vignetting if you would have used raw or
dng images in PTGui. Any tiff or jpeg files would have the vignetting
already removed and they would stitch fine.

If you want me to take a look, send the files to support at ptgui.com.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

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[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

Thanks for the images. There's a huge lighting difference in the images.
It's very obvious if you switch to unblended view in the panorama
editor. See attached screenshot.

I'm not sure if this is due to changes in actual lighting, or due to how
you converted the raw images.

I was able to improve the result by enabling 'Optimize brightness' under
Settings in 'Automatic Exposure and Color Adjustment', but it's not perfect.

You can improve

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

[Wolfgang Schweitzer]

Hello Joost,

the images are actually JPGs out of cam. I'm afraid the lighting
differences between the pictures are real - I took them some time after
sunset, and needed about 30 min to make them all. During that time it
did get a good bit darker. I hoped PTGui would be able to equalize these
differences ...

Is there anything I can do about it, like correcting the lighting in the
pictures before I load them in PTGui? I do have them in RAW format, too,
so there's some headroom for such corrections. I just wouldn't know how
much I should correct - do you have a suggestion?

Thanks,
Wolfgang

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

Like I said, you can enable 'Optimize brightness' under Settings in
'Automatic Exposure and Color Adjustment'. Then press Optimize Now. It
improved the result (but I only have a small section of the panorama).

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

[Wolfgang Schweitzer]

Hi Joost,

yesterday, I enabled "Perform automatic exposure and color adjustment"
in the project settings. I also ran the Optimizer. But the result that
PTGui produced after this was not a bit better than before.

Now I looked for an individual "Optimize Now" button, but didn't find
it. Where is it?

Thanks,
Wolfgang

P.S.: my PTGui is v11.32

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

See screenshot. Try enabling 'optimize brightness'.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

[Wolfgang Schweitzer]

Thanks Joost, I found it now. Results are better this way, but still not
good enough, see attached.

Do you have another or more suggestions how to improve further? I don't
have an easy way to do individual expose compensation for each source
image, to eliminate the effect of the gradual darkening of the scene
while I took the 285 source images ...

Thanks again, I really appreciate your patience with me!
Wolfgang

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

Perhaps the vignetting can be corrected better, if you let PTGui analyze
the vignetting on just a subset of images that were taken within a short
period of time (so they were taken at similar lighting levels). If you
mix images with different lighting, like in your panorama, PTGui may not
be able to properly analyze the vignetting.

In other words, reduce your project to, say, 4 images. Press Optimize
Now and see if the vignetting is better controlled. Save the vignetting
curve and then load this vignetting curve in your complete project.
There are load and save buttons for the vignetting curve.

There's still a lighting problem around the castle: this is because the
brightness of the castle didn't change (because it's illuminated) but
the sky brightness did change. So PTGui's 'Optimize Brightness' will not
work there. Perhaps this can be improved by manually tweaking the 'exp
offset' column in the Image Parameters tab, to make the castle images
slightly brighter.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

[Wolfgang Schweitzer]

Hi Joost,

I selected the bright exposures of the 87 to 90 brackets to let PTGui
analyze the vignetting, then saved this as suggested, re-included all
pictures again, loaded the previously found vignetting file and let
PTGui render again. But it made almost no difference.

Tweaking the brightness of the castle images works and could likely
solve this problem (I overdid in my first attempt), but as long as the
vignetting problem (if it really is vignetting, I must say I do have
doubts) can't be solved it isn't worth another try.

Do you think it could make a difference to render 16 bit tiffs using
CaptureOne from the properly exposed image of each bracket, and stitch
these, not as HDR?

Or do you still have other suggestions?

Thanks,
Wolfgang

[John Houghton]

Wolfgang, 

On Friday, May 7, 2021 at 1:31:23 PM UTC+1 wus wrote:

I selected the bright exposures of the 87 to 90 brackets to let PTGui
analyze the vignetting, then saved this as suggested, 

Wolfgang, After saving the vignetting parameters, did you immediately then output the stitched panorama using just those those images?  Was there any vignetting still visible.  If so, there would be no point in going on to apply the vignetting settings to the entire project.  Maybe you need more overlap in a test project to evaluate vignetting properly.

John  

[wus]

Hello John,

after saving the new vignetting parameters found by analyzing source images 87 to 90, I re-included all (95 x 3) source images and then stitched the whole panorama again. If you look at my screenshot from the panorama editor you can see where images 87 to 90 are. And if you then look up the same location in the attached panoramas, you will see that the strange shadows are still there.

I don't think insufficient overlap is the cause of this. Images overlap 38% of image width and 37% of its height, on average.

Any other ideas or suggestions, please?

Thanks,

Wolfgang

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

You could try to get rid of the vignetting some other way, during raw
conversion perhaps.

Or try the old Multiband blender (see Blending side bar in the panorama
editor). With sufficient overlap it might better hide the vignetting.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

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[John Houghton]

Wolfgang, Could you share copies of images 87-90 ?  I don't think there should be any privacy issues concerning blue sky images.

John

[Philip Chong]

Depends on the photo editor, it might be able to read your photo profile and correct the vignetting.  I run it as batch to correct all of it, then stitch.  Works prefect.

[John Houghton]

On Sunday, May 9, 2021 at 3:17:34 AM UTC+1 cho...@gmail.com wrote:

Depends on the photo editor, it might be able to read your photo profile and correct the vignetting.

Indeed.  But metadata can be omitted when creating copies if necessary.

John 

[wus]

Hello Philip, what Photo editor do you mean? Something within PTGui, or external, like Lightroom or CaptureOne?

Hello John, please find the first 2 of the 4 pictures attached! Thanks for looking into this!

Wolfgang

[wus]

... and here are the 2nd 2 of the 4

- Nr. 87 is the DSC07919, ... Nr. 980 is the DSC07928

[John Houghton]

Wolfgang, Thanks for the images.  The vignetting doesn't seem to conform to a circular pattern.  I did some tests with the correction offered by the Adobe raw converter but didn't succeed in getting a smooth blend of the images.  They are very dark anyway, so it's difficult to do visual adjustments with any accuracy, especially with the varying brightness of the sky across the images.

Looking at the camera, there is a rectangular aperture in front of the lens.  If the long edges are causing vignetting along the sides of the portrait image, then this might account for the strong vertical banding in the panorama, whereas there's little evidence of horizontal banding.  It would be good idea to photograph a uniformly lit plain grey or white sheet of card/paper, so that the vignetting could be tested more accurately.

John

[wus]

I am convinced that there is no noticeable vignetting in the pictures taken at 200mm equivalent.

I use CaptureOne (c1) for RAW conversion. I can choose between a generic mode and a manufacturer profile, where the latter is supposed to apply all lens correction that Sony implemented on this high end compact. There is a coarse difference between the generic mode and the manufacturer profile when rendering wideangle shots - in generic mode, corners are almost black, and the picture has heavy barrel distortion. When I switch to manufacturer profile, both are perfectly corrected. JPGs out of cam look like the versions rendered out of RAWs by c1 with the manufacturer profile applied. There is no visible vignetting.

This is proof to me that vignetting correction is applied, in camera to JPGs rendered by the camera, and equally to RAWs converted by c1 using the manufacturer profile.

The pictures in this panorama were taken at the long end of this camera's zoom range, 72mm, or 200mm full frame equivalent. When I switch c1 between generic and manufacturer profile on pictures taken at the long end, there is no difference between the two, except a slight pincushion correction. No difference at all in corner brightness.

In my opinion, there must be another reason for the "shadowing" that PTGui gives me.

Besides, I was thinking about doing test shots to check out if any vignetting remains after the correction applied by the manufacturer profile. But this only makes sense if I have an absolutely uniformly lit area to take the tests shots on. I don't have that, and even though I could theoretically create it somehow, I have no means of verifying that it is really unformly lit.

If I have opportunity to return to this castle - on an evening with similar weather, i.e. clear sky - I will try to take the same panorama again with my bigger camera. I have taken numerous

Until then (if it ever happens...) let's pause this case.

Thank you all for your efforts!

Wolfgang

[野本夏俊]

In my case, I decided not to use the RAW image as is.

This is a stitched version of a RAW image, but the stitching is noticeably darker due to vignetting.

https://www.360cities.net/image/sunset-of-utsukushigahara-highland-1-japan

This is an HDR panorama of the source image after setting the vignetting correction to 180 in Photoshop and developing it as a 16-bit TIFF.

https://www.360cities.net/image/east-side-20210211-061329-061449-064337-064445-tokyo

In the latter, I think the stitching is almost invisible.

This is quite a bit of work and requires twice the disk space, but it produces good results in my case.

I don't know if this is the way to go in your case, and I can't tell you what the best settings are in your case until you try it.

You may want to try it once.

2021年5月11日火曜日 20:42:35 UTC+9 wus:

[wus]

Hello Natsutoshi,  yes I agree, on your 2nd pano the stitching is quite invisible.

I already tried to do the pano from 16 bit tiffs generated from my RAWs, but so far only corrected for the overall decrease in natural light during the shooting session (which took ~ 30 min), not for vignetting. The result was better than before, but still not good.

Which camera did you use for your 2nd panorama, and which lens? And how did you determine the value of 180 for the vignetting correction?

Thanks,

Wolfgang

[野本夏俊]

The first and second images are taken with the exact same camera and lens.

Camera: Sony α7R3, Lens: SEL1224G (24mm)

The 180 was reprocessed by changing the settings many times on the same photo and chose the settings that gave the best results.

I think this will vary depending on the camera and lens, so you'll have to do some trial and error.

2021年5月12日水曜日 1:40:15 UTC+9 wus:

[野本夏俊]

I think it's easier to see the difference if you use the same image and change the processing method, so I actually tried it. Camera: ILCE-7RM3 Lens: SEL24105G@105mm

Panorama processed with RAW image

Vignetting correction = 180, panorama redone with 16bit TIFF

Now that I've compared them, the differences are not that extreme.

I rendered it at about 1/20th of the actual size, so the difference may not be as noticeable.

I hope this is helpful to you.

2021年5月12日水曜日 6:05:27 UTC+9 野本夏俊:

[wus]

Hi Joost,

I looked for the "old" Multiband blender (? - what is the new one then?)  now, but didn't find it in the panorama editor. (Remember I use v11.32)

I did find a "Blending mode" in the main windows in Create Panorama. Multiband seems to be the standard there. The only other choice there is Alpha blending, but with this, the results are worse. Are there other blenders, perhaps to be installed as plugins?

Thanks,

Wolfgang

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

The new blender is called Zero Overlap, it was introduced in PTGui 12:
https://www.ptgui.com/whatsnew.html?version=120000

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 12/05/2021 15:19, wus wrote:
> Hi Joost,
>
> I looked for the "old" Multiband blender (? - what is the new one
> then?)  now, but didn't find it in the panorama editor. (Remember I use
> v11.32)
>
> I did find a "Blending mode" in the main windows in Create Panorama.
> Multiband seems to be the standard there. The only other choice there is
> Alpha blending, but with this, the results are worse. Are there other
> blenders, perhaps to be installed as plugins?
>
> Thanks,
> Wolfgang
>
> PTGui Support schrieb am Samstag, 8. Mai 2021 um 18:13:12 UTC+2:
>
> Hi Wolfgang,
>
> You could try to get rid of the vignetting some other way, during raw
> conversion perhaps.
>
> Or try the old Multiband blender (see Blending side bar in the panorama
> editor). With sufficient overlap it might better hide the vignetting.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Joost Nieuwenhuijse

> www.ptgui.com <http://www.ptgui.com>

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[Philip Chong]

I have taken 26 DNG photos for my 360 pano with exposure lock(must!)

The photo editor read my corrected lens profile and correct the vignetting.

I run it thru a batch and it correct all the 26 photos.  The vignetting is gone.

Isn't this the process?

[wus]

I took all the photos of this pano with exposure look, too.

However, taking all my source images took ~ 30 min. During this time, the available light reduced according to the progressing dawn. I failed to measure exactly how much, but guess it was somewhere between 2 and 3 f-stops. Exposure values recorded in the source image's EXIFs from the few first and last images suggested it must have been something like this. I tried to account for this by entering gradually changing exp. offsets per source image in PTGu, as Joost suggested above.

In the meantime, I also added an additional* vignetting correction to the source images in CaptureOne. It offers a scale from 0 to 120 and I pulled the slider to 80. It made a visible difference in corner brightness of each source image. In my opinion, corners were slightly over-corrected this way. Then I rendered all these photos again and stitched them.

* on top of the vignetting correction applied by processing the manufacturer profile.

The result got a little better again - see attached -, but still not really nice to look at. The shadows are still too distracting.

Also, it looks as if the sky is rendered brighter where the source images of the upper 2 rows overlap. See attached screenshot of the Pano Editor.

Hi Joost,

do you have an explanation for this? How can I avoid it?

Thanks,

Wolfgang

[John Houghton]

Wolfgang, May I suggest a way to proceed by evaluating a vignetting curve and applying it to your problem panorama project:

If you have a nice blue sky during the day, go to some location with a clear view of a reasonably distant horizon (to avoid parallax effects).

Take 5 or 6 shots (raw, portrait, not bracketed, and no need to use a tripod unless to avoid camera shake) with the same aperture and focal length setting  you have been using, full manual mode (no auto settings), and overlapping by 50% approximately.  Angle the shots tilted upwards with just enough of the land below the horizon included at the bottom of the frame so that there will be features available for control points when the images are stitched together.

Convert raw images to tiff with the bare minimum of adjustments (no auto settings or vignetting adjustments).

Load the tiff images into PTGui and align with control points only on the distant horizon and optimize vignetting correction on the Exposure/HDR tab (in the automatic exposure and colour adjustment section).  Hopefully, a good rendering of the sky will be obtained, in which case save the vignetting settings.  If banding problems remain in the stitched output, then there's no point in carrying on to the next steps!

Assuming all has gone well, apply these saved vignetting settings to one exposure set of  images from your difficult panorama - i.e. a stitch with no HDR involvement.

Set the blending mode in the Panorama Editor window to "unblended", which will make brightness differences between neighbouring images very sharply evident.

Try optimizing just exposure on the Exposure/HDR tab,  or if necessary, tweak the exposure offset parameters of individual images to match the images one by one to eliminate visible image boundaries. If it's possible to achieve this reasonably well, then when the blending mode is switched to blended, the result should be very good.

Based on previous reports, it seems likely that the result will not be perfect either, but if it is, you should be able to deal with all the images in an HDR project.

John

[PTGui Support]

On 12/05/2021 18:08, wus wrote:
> Also, it looks as if the sky is rendered brighter where the source
> images of the upper 2 rows overlap. See attached screenshot of the Pano
> Editor.
>
> Hi Joost,
>
> do you have an explanation for this? How can I avoid it?

Well it's caused by the large lighting differences. I think you can
really only avoid it by shooting much faster, perhaps by not bracketing,
using a wider lens, faster camera, etc.

It's not only the brightness that changes, but the color of the sky.
Also the contrast between foreground and background changes, this might
be responsible for the halos above the trees.

John gave good suggestions. You might also try PTGui 12, perhaps the new
blender does a better job here, but I don't think PTGui will be able to
make a perfect panorama from these images.

Joost

[Erik Krause]

Am 12.05.2021 um 22:43 schrieb PTGui Support:

> Well it's caused by the large lighting differences. I think you can
> really only avoid it by shooting much faster, perhaps by not bracketing,
> using a wider lens, faster camera, etc.

If you have an external light meter you can measure the darkening
between shots and correct accordingly. You can do that even with a
second camera always pointing at the same location in your scene.

However, this won't help if there are artificially lit objects. In this
case I'd shoot those again at the end of the session (when its darkest)
and stitch them to a separate but aligned layer which I'd then mask in
in photoshop (eventually using 'lighten' blend mode).

I had the same problems shooting this panorama:
https://www.worldwidepanorama.org/wwp2011/ErikKrause-7722.html
When I started it was about like it looks in the image, for the final
nadir shot I barely saw my feet (which was essential in that place ;-)

--
Erik Krause
http://www.erik-krause.de

[Wolfgang Schweitzer]

Hi Joost,

I just tried to post a new issue in the ptgui google group but keep getting posting errors.

I want to stitch 3 source images into 1 vertical cylindrical pano (attached 20210628-135530_2-c1 vert.Panov2.pts). But PTGui rotates the images and also bends them in a strange way, plus it's embedding the "net" resulting pano in a far too big black background (31119 x 10704 pixels). See attached screenshot from the panorama editor.

When I use only the upper 2 of the 3 source images, PTGui stitches them as expected (attached 20210628-135530_2-c1 vert.Pano). All source images are uncompressed landscape 16 bit tiffs without alpha channel and have 5472 x 3648 pixels.

I tried to rotate the source images in PTGui but the result does not change.

Is this a bug or am I missing sth?

Thanks,
Wolfgang

[PTGui Support]

Hi Wolfgang,

If you stitch a single row of images, PTGui will assume it is a
horizontal panorama (because it is the most common).

You can rotate the panorama by dragging with the right mouse button in
the panorama editor. Before rotating, first drag it towards the center
using the left mouse button.

It's best to use one of the 'Transverse' projections, such as Transverse
Cylindrical, these are intended for vertical panoramas.

Kind regards,

Joost Nieuwenhuijse
www.ptgui.com

On 30/06/2021 11:41, Wolfgang Schweitzer wrote:
> Hi Joost,
>
> I just tried to post a new issue in the ptgui google group but keep
> getting posting errors.
>
> I want to stitch 3 source images into 1 vertical cylindrical pano
> (attached 20210628-135530_2-c1 vert.Panov2.pts). But PTGui rotates the
> images and also bends them in a strange way, plus it's embedding the
> "net" resulting pano in a far too big black background (31119 x 10704
> pixels). See attached screenshot from the panorama editor.

> Screenshot 2021-06-30 11.19.18.png
> When I use only the upper 2 of the 3 source images, PTGui stitches them
> as expected (attached 20210628-135530_2-c1 vert.Pano). All source images
> are uncompressed landscape 16 bit tiffs without alpha channel and have
> 5472 x 3648 pixels.

> 20210628-135530_2-c1 vert.Pano-.jpg
> I tried to rotate the source images in PTGui but the result does not change.
>
> Is this a bug or am I missing sth?
>
> Thanks,
> Wolfgang
>
>
>

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[Wolfgang Schweitzer]

Answer within 16 min - phantastic support! Thanks Joost!

I found it.

(The only question that remains is why PTGui did stitch the upper 2
images vertically, but it's irrelevant now.)

Thanks again, Wolfgang