Avid S3 or C24 control surface?

[Katie Zodrow]

Hi, everyone. Sorry this email is under Ashley Cox’s name, I’m not sure why this happened when I put in PT Accessibility in the to field. I’ll try to delete that next time I email the list.

I haven’t emailed this list in a long time, but I have a question about control surfaces. I’m currently working at Rick Boggs' studio Audio Eyes part-time as an audio engineer. We do postproduction work producing video description. I’ll be going full time by next year and will be getting my own digital audio workstation so I can work remotely from home or at the studio. I reopened my case with DOR in California, and they will be purchasing this system for me. I was planning to get the C24 control surface since that’s what we have at the studio, and I’m really familiar with this board. But I was browsing on Google a couple weeks ago and last night too. I found information about another control surface made by Avid. I think it was introduced earlier this year or last year. Its called the Avid S3 control surface. Have any of you guys used this before, and do you know if this is accessible with Voiceover? I’ve never seen the S3 control surface. I’ve used the C24 at the studio many times, so I’m very familiar with using that board.

I know Rick told me if I get the C24, I would have to purchase a separate desk for the console. I know the S3 is a much smaller control surface compared to the C24, but I wasn’t sure which one would be the best option for me to use with ProTools. Does the S3 come with its own desk, or do you need to purchase it separately?

I’ve heard the S3 is EUCON enabled which is cool, so you can use this with other applications besides ProTools like Logic or Digital Performer. This board has 16 channels you can work with instead of 24. I’m not sure though if the S3 has a lot of analog controls like the C24 or not. I’ve read that the S3 doesn’t have a lot of audio editing functions though, so I think I’d have to get the Artist Transport to use for editing and recording. I like that the C24 includes the transport controls as well as the jog wheel, and the scrub and shuttle modes all in one unit. Is the Artist Transport a good device to use for editing?


Let me know what you guys think. I’d like to get a control surface I can use and that’s still supported by Avid for at least five years or longer. Should I go with the C24, or the Avid S3?
Thanks.
Katie

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Katie,

I know of no blind users with an s3 yet. To be certain, the C|24 is fully supported and is very accessible but undoubtedly much further along in its life cycle. It's clearly still supported and will probably be supported for a few more years but I'd say that 5 years is perhaps pushing it a bit. I'm not sure. In addition, the s3 is half the price but, as you pointed out, doesn't necessarily have all of the same features that come in so handy with the C|24. I'll be at AES this week and will have a chance to take a closer look at the S3 and, since I have a C|24, might be able to compare/contrast the two. I'll see if I can paint a fuller picture by next week.

Best,

Slau

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[Katie Zodrow]

Cool. Thanks Slau. I didn’t know the AES show was this weekend. Let me know what you find out about the S3 and how you like using it.
I know Rick hasn’t used this board either. If its not as accessible, I might as well go with the C24. I’ll be doing a lot of editing voiceover tracks and mixing projects in stereo and surround sound.
Let me know what you think about the S3 control surface after you attend AES.
Thanks.
Katie

[Katie Zodrow]

Hi, Slau. I just looked at the Mackie Universal Pro control surface on the B&H website. I just read about this one when I was browsing some old posts on the PT list about control surfaces. It sounds like this control surface might be better than the S3 since its got a jog wheel for editing audio in scrub or shuttle modes. Can you use this for mixing in stereo or surround sound?
Not sure if this control surface would be better than the C24. Let me know what you think.
Thanks.
Katie

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Katie,

When speaking of Pro Tools specifically, you won't get better access than with the C|24 and possibly the S3. While the idea of the Macke Control is appealing, especially at its price point, I have yet to hear of a blind user who has truly found it to be a viable surface for Pro Tools. While it'll certainly work for things like transport, scrubbing (although I don't like the way it scrubs), mute, solo, etc., my understanding is that it lacks in the ability to reliably switch into fader flip mode which is one of the most important aspects of control surface implementation for blind users of Pro Tools. If someone's experience on the list is significantly different, I'd love to hear about it.

Best,

Slau

[Katie Zodrow]

Hi, what does fader flip mode do on a control surface?
Thanks.
Katie

[Slau Halatyn]

In fader flip mode, plug-in controls which are normally mapped to the encoder knobs are flipped down to appear on the faders instead. This gives a blind user the benefit of a tactile representation of the parameter values. It's pretty much the only way I've accessed plug-ins in Pro Tools. Actually, a combination of fader flip mode and directly changing parameter values with VoiceOver seems to work best. All Avid surfaces have fader flip mode and some, but not all, third party surfaces have the mode as well. Supposedly, the Mackie Control has it but, again, I have yet to hear of somebody reliably using it in that mode.

Slau

[mcdiemert .]

Have never gotten FF mode to work at all in PT 10/11/12.
I have considered switching from the MCU for this very reason as
working with the encoder knobs can be quite annoying to put it mildly.

Warm Regards:
Matt Diemert
330-980-0046

[Slau Halatyn]

There you go. I can't imagine having to use Pro Tools without fader flip mode. Again, I recognize the appeal of having a surface that works for more than just one DAW but, frankly, that is a non-issue for me because I use precisely one DAW. Ironically, the original HUI specification where fader flip was implemented was in the Mackie HUI control surface itself. Even some Digidesign surfaces didn't have it at first. Now, every Avid surface offers it. I know the J.L. Cooper stuff featured fader flip mode as well. Today, I'm not sure what the lay of the land is for third party manufacturers.

Slau

[Katie Zodrow]

Hi. Thanks for explaining what fader flip mode is. I haven’t had to use this mode yet, but that’s cool I can either use this for changing plug in parameters on the console or use Voiceover. That’s interesting Mackie discontinued using fader flip mode since they first implemented this a while ago.
Is the AES show in New York this year?
Katie

[Nick Gawronski]

Hi, I have been reading this topic and find this very interesting. I am
looking to trade in my Digi 003 or would not mind selling it if someone
on this list wants to buy it from me. Does Avid make any control
surfaces or interfaces that give me the same features as the Digi 003 as
lots of people have heard about the new focus right interfaces which I
am ok with getting but would want at least the same amount of inputs on
that as the Digi 003 has and I guess I could buy an Avid control surface
but does Avid still have moving controls like the Digi 003 does as I
also don't want to lose those? I don't mind having two different devices
as this way I could always travel with one then mix things at home.
Nick Gawronski

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Katie,

There have been instances where plug-in parameters can be changed from a surface but not with VoiceOver. Often, this has been resolved but there could be instances in the future of which we're currently unaware so having the surface with fader flip mode is truly helpful.

Yes, AES cycles every year between New York and the west coast either in San Francisco or Los Angeles.

Slau

[Sean A. Cummins]

Hi Slau and Katie,

I have the S3, and the performance with Pro Tools 12 is very tight, and
deeply integrated. . I also use the Euphonic MC Transport with the S3
which provides an incredible amount of options for controlling Pro Tools.
Coincidentally, this weekend, I am starting the training with a client on
his workstation my company had configured using the S3 and MC Transport with
Pro Tools 12.

For years I have been recommending and using several differing control
surfaces with VR clients that my company serve, and I firmly believe this is
the future for all DAW programs with regard to the use of EuCon protocol.
Hopefully, EuCon will provide a protocol that will allow for people such as
Tim Burgess, to refine his Surface Reader that can one day support a
comprehensive solution. This will enable us to work more directly with the
DAW software, and eliminate the loss of access when scripts, operating
systems and DAW software shifts direction. Standardizing a communication
platform between software and devices, will enable speech output to provide
clear and succinct verbalization that can even be customized by the
individual user.

Slau, I think you will be very pleased by what you see and hear about the S3
at AES. Talk with the Avid folks about EuCon, and where it's heading. And
by the way, Unbeknownst to most, EuCon has been implemented in most all of
the major DAW software's; even going back as far as Sonar Producer 8.

Take Care,

Sean
SeanAC...@GMail.com
(928) 301-0518

[Jed Barton]

hey guys, so can you tell me a bit about the s3? I am going to be
getting protools, and this is my biggest deciding factor.
What i will be doing with protools, some radio production, and some
basic music mixing. In my past with digital editing, i've always found
it really useful to have a scrub wheel. Obviously i need a somewhat
good control surface, but can't afford 5 grand to get it. Any middle of
the road solutions that will cover a lot of the basics such as editing,
faiders and all that?
Will this s3 do the job?

[Katie Zodrow]

Hi, Sean. Wow, I thought there were no blind PT users that were using the S3 control surface. You’re the first person on here that’s been using one so that’s awesome! Have you used the C24 control surface before? Just wondering if the Avid S3 features are very different, or if its similar to the C24 and has many analog controls on it? Is this accessible with ProTools and Voiceover? I haven’t used EUCON before with ProTools either, so I’m not sure if this protocol is accessible with Voiceover or not. I’ll also wait to hear back from Slau after he goes to AES and get his feedback on the S3 too.
Thanks.
Katie

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi sean,

I thought you were using that SSL surface. You probably were and switched at some point, clearly. Good to know that at least someone has taken the plunge. Although I'm currently using the C|24, I might also get the s3, we'll see.

Thanks for the heads up,

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Jed,

The S3 costs $5,000. The Artist series is considerably less expensive and you might want to check that out. There's at least one person using it and loves it.

Slau

[Slau Halatyn]

Hi Katie,

The Eucon environment is accessible so that's good news on the S3 and Artist front. It'll be interesting to look into the iPad app for extending the S3 functionality to include some of what the S6 has.

Slau

[Katie Zodrow]

Hi, Slau. Very cool! That’s good news the EUCON environment is accessible. I thought it might be really challenging to set up and navigate since I’ve never used this protocol before. I read about the iPad app with ProTools on Tuesday this week. Sounds really interesting.
I’d like to hear more about that too.
Katie

[Sean A. Cummins]

Hi Slau,

Yes, you are correct. I have integrated several of the SSL Nucleus for
clients, but the S3 is my newest recommendation for the systems I'm
integrating. The SSL's also utilize the EuCon protocol, so this is the
direction I am guiding my client to pursue for future development of the
Surface Reader.

The one think folks need to understand, is that the S3 is really strictly a
DAW control surface that can also be used on a local area network. This
meaning that it can be used in a digital audio/video over Ethernet editing
post production house.

There are limited audio ins and out on the S3, so the need for an I/O and
preamp will be necessary for those looking to do multi track recording at
one time. Though I personally choose to pick the I/O and preamps to my
liking, and don't want to go with "on board" preamps; there is, something to
be said for an all-in-one solution.

[Jed Barton]

oh cool, do you have a model number for that? artist series, right?

[Slau Halatyn]

I don't know the model numbers but there's like 3 surfaces that belong to that series. Sweetwater probably has some overviews.

Slau