PSPSeq 2.10... for Windows!

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ethan

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Nov 7, 2007, 1:45:15 PM11/7/07
to PSPSeq
hey everyone, still procrastinating on PSPSeq 3.00. however, i do
have something neat for you to try - PSPSeq on your PC!

http://www.dspmusic.org/psp/PSPSeq210ForWindows-beta1.zip

hopefully it's well behaved; only tested it on a couple computers
hence why this is a beta (and why i don't want this spread around
quite yet). i didn't include a new full set of documentation; just
the quick reference sheet. the mapping of PSP controls to the PC are
roughly as follows:

D-pad: l/r/u/d arrow keys
A-pad: for "digital" handling w/s/a/d, mouse up/down with L/R button
pressed for analog controls
X/tri/square/O: h/y/g/j
L/R trigger: 2/7
start/select: slash/period

so, as an example let's say you're in the EDIT SYNTH menu and want to
slowly control all parameters in a loop. on the PSP you'd hold L-
trigger, triangle, and move the A-pad up/down. on the PC you'd hold
y, 2, left mouse button, and move the mouse up and down. it's not as
easy to use as the PSP; if anyone has any bright ideas on new
remappings that would be great.

known problems/quirks with this version:

1. stopping audio causes the output buffer to play indefinitely, so
you can end up with some rather harsh glitching sounds.
2. recording songs to wav works but can take a while and doesn't
update the screen at all. take a break and have faith that it is
rendering. :)

once the key mappings are finalized and whatever bugs are routed out
i'll finish off the documentation and package it up with the PSP
version of PSPSeq, and update the documentation accordingly.

have fun!

ethan

Peter Swimm

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Nov 7, 2007, 2:09:54 PM11/7/07
to psp...@googlegroups.com
I will play with this more later, but I would like possibly a
nonfullscreen mode, and windows usb padsupport!

Awesome development!

Peter

--
Peter Swimm
www.toilville.com

ethan

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Nov 7, 2007, 3:33:38 PM11/7/07
to PSPSeq
thanks for grabbing it so quick. looking forward to more comments.
as for what you've said so far...

non-fullscreen is easy to do but i found the performance degradation
to be huge so i went with full screen. unless it's a problem with SDL
(the cross-platform A/V library used to build this on the PC), it
should be fixable since PSPSeq is pretty undemanding as PC apps go.

as for the usb pad support, can you point to a device in particular?
at the moment i'm keeping equivalent functionality (any seq created on
the PSP should run in this version too), but i may expand on this
version of PSPSeq for other controllers or 32 tracks of audio or who
knows what else. :)

On Nov 7, 2:09 pm, "Peter Swimm" <petersw...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I will play with this more later, but I would like possibly a
> nonfullscreen mode, and windows usb padsupport!
>
> Awesome development!
>
> Peter
>

AMB

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Nov 8, 2007, 5:37:44 AM11/8/07
to PSPSeq
Roger! Got it here!

Thanx!

Alex

AlbertoZ

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Nov 9, 2007, 8:06:30 AM11/9/07
to PSPSeq
Awesome, Ethan!!
Thanks for this release.

Windows specific questions:

- Was is difficult to port it on windows?
- did you used your SDL?
- Is it fullscreen-mode only?
- How do you interface with Windows "audio drivers" ?

> A-pad: for "digital" handling w/s/a/d, mouse up/down with L/R button

Maybe A-pad left/right could be made more intuitive with L-button
pressed and left/right movement?

Now I can imagine 4 "worlds":

(develop on PC) && (execute on PSP)
(develop on PSP) && (develop on PSP)
(develop on PC) && (execute on PC)
(develop on PSP) && (execute on PSP)

:-)

cheers,

AlbertoZ

ethan

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Nov 9, 2007, 9:08:39 AM11/9/07
to PSPSeq
> Windows specific questions:
>
> - Was is difficult to port it on windows?

not really. i've actually been doing all my development/debugging in
MS visual studio and then i recompile for GCC/PSP. once i had the
main differences between the PSP and the PC isolated and encapsulated,
i could do basically all my development on a PC without much fear of
incompatibilties. i just spent the last couple days cleaning up the
PC input handlers and added mouse support so that it was good enough
to release.

> - did you used your SDL?

yep, definitely the easiest way to access A/V on the PC. however, i
didn't use SDL on the PSP. it's all more ad-hoc than that. in
retrospect it might have made sense to try using SDL, but accessing
the frame buffers is pretty straightforward so it wasn't really
necessary. it may have saved some debug time when i was having lots
of video flicker issues.

> - Is it fullscreen-mode only?

it's very easy to rebuild for windowed mode, but for some reason
performance really suffers. i need to ask around on the SDL lists to
see what i might be doing wrong. i don't mind taking over the whole
screen, but i'm sure it's annoying for others. if i get windowed mode
working i'll make it a command line switch or maybe a menu option.

> - How do you interface with Windows "audio drivers" ?

portaudio.

http://www.portaudio.com/

works like a charm! if anyone out there wants to play around with C
programming and audio this is a great way to quickly get into it.
nice thing is that it works in the same way as audio on the PSP (via
callbacks) so the main audio output functions are quite similar.

> > A-pad: for "digital" handling w/s/a/d, mouse up/down with L/R button
>
> Maybe A-pad left/right could be made more intuitive with L-button
> pressed and left/right movement?

i'd thought about this but i think it might be tricky to pull off.
the issue is that you don't want to accidently trigger U/D movements
when going L/R (or vice versa) - the mouse buttons guarantee you're
only manipulating one set of parameters. on the PSP A-pad it's pretty
easy to guard against this by ignoring small offsets in one direction
or the other. however, with a mouse it's a lot easier to make gross
errors in one axis when trying to navigate in the other. plus if you
add a guarded band of movement you lose the ability to make small
changes with the mouse, which i find pretty useful. but if other
people find this method cumbersome i might see what else i can come up
with.

oh and also i like having digital A-pad capability for quickly jumping
around in the sequencer. i don't think there would be a simple
consistent way of doing that with the mouse.

> Now I can imagine 4 "worlds":
>
> (develop on PC) && (execute on PSP)
> (develop on PSP) && (develop on PSP)
> (develop on PC) && (execute on PC)
> (develop on PSP) && (execute on PSP)

heh, for me the develop has to be on the PC and then decide whether to
cross compile. i'm not careful enough to code directly on the
PSP! ;)

ethan

Peter Swimm

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Nov 13, 2007, 7:34:46 AM11/13/07
to psp...@googlegroups.com
Yea I had a tough time learning the commands, and are still trying to
find time to get into it more advanced. Littlepiggytracker also uses
sdl, so I just used a program like this:

http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/JoyToKey%20English%20Version.htm

and playstation to usb gamepad converter.

But piggy uses far less obscure key commandos, its give the illusion
of elegance, but the psp results are so good im trying to push through
the wall of the learning curve :)..


I would resist the urge to make a more advanced windows version,
unless both versions were fully capable of at least playback. I can
see on using the windows version to expand on songs made on the go,
but Id hate to lose the ability to play the track out later because it
go too badass :)

Now I just have to find a umpc to play this sucker :)

Peter

ethan

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Nov 13, 2007, 10:34:38 AM11/13/07
to PSPSeq
> Yea I had a tough time learning the commands, and are still trying to
> find time to get into it more advanced. Littlepiggytracker also uses
> sdl, so I just used a program like this:
>
> http://www.electracode.com/4/joy2key/JoyToKey%20English%20Version.htm
>
> and playstation to usb gamepad converter.

interesting. i don't have a joystick for my PC so i can't even launch
the app. can you program it for keyboard/mouse combos or only for
individual keys/motions?

> But piggy uses far less obscure key commandos, its give the illusion
> of elegance, but the psp results are so good im trying to push through
> the wall of the learning curve :)..

heh. good luck with that! i'm going to put a bit more thought into
any simplifications i can make to the input options for the PC version
of PSPSeq. not sure i can do much; personally i'd rather have more
complex combos but more control options rather than artificially
limiting what one can do with the program. i think for existing
PSPSeq users the PC version should be pretty easy to pick up (though
maybe not as fast to compose with) but i'm sure it's extra baffling
for new users.

> I would resist the urge to make a more advanced windows version,
> unless both versions were fully capable of at least playback. I can
> see on using the windows version to expand on songs made on the go,
> but Id hate to lose the ability to play the track out later because it
> go too badass :)

yeah that's the plan for now. in the future i may try and open up the
PC version for 32 tracks and no processor loading restrictions, but
this definitely designed to mirror what you can do on the PSP so you
can work in either environment. the only divergence is that the PC
can handle much larger WAV files for that instrument. simulating the
memory size limitations on the PSP would be pretty much impossible.

ethan

Peter Swimm

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Nov 13, 2007, 2:43:52 PM11/13/07
to psp...@googlegroups.com
> interesting. i don't have a joystick for my PC so i can't even launch
> the app. can you program it for keyboard/mouse combos or only for
> individual keys/motions?

Im pretty sure its keyboard only. I will have to search if there are
any key+mouse to joy converters out there...


> heh. good luck with that! i'm going to put a bit more thought into
> any simplifications i can make to the input options for the PC version
> of PSPSeq. not sure i can do much; personally i'd rather have more
> complex combos but more control options rather than artificially
> limiting what one can do with the program. i think for existing
> PSPSeq users the PC version should be pretty easy to pick up (though
> maybe not as fast to compose with) but i'm sure it's extra baffling
> for new users.
>

Fer sure.. It took me ten mins to figure out how to load/play tracks :)

> yeah that's the plan for now. in the future i may try and open up the
> PC version for 32 tracks and no processor loading restrictions, but
> this definitely designed to mirror what you can do on the PSP so you
> can work in either environment. the only divergence is that the PC
> can handle much larger WAV files for that instrument. simulating the
> memory size limitations on the PSP would be pretty much impossible.


Sounds great. Since it runs in sdl, would a gp2x port be possible, or
is the unit simply underpowered?

Peter

ethan

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Nov 13, 2007, 3:35:36 PM11/13/07
to PSPSeq
> > heh. good luck with that! i'm going to put a bit more thought into
> > any simplifications i can make to the input options for the PC version
> > of PSPSeq. not sure i can do much; personally i'd rather have more
> > complex combos but more control options rather than artificially
> > limiting what one can do with the program. i think for existing
> > PSPSeq users the PC version should be pretty easy to pick up (though
> > maybe not as fast to compose with) but i'm sure it's extra baffling
> > for new users.
>
> Fer sure.. It took me ten mins to figure out how to load/play tracks :)

10 minutes! that's just depressing. :( this is on the PC version
right? did you look at the quick ref guide? i've tried to put doc in
as many places as possible (though it's not yet updated for the PC
version) so it really shouldn't be that bad.

one thing i'm going to do soon is make some video tutorials (recording
video on a PC screen is a lot easier than the PSP screen) and post
them on youtube. sounds like they could be pretty useful for a lot of
people.

> Sounds great. Since it runs in sdl, would a gp2x port be possible, or
> is the unit simply underpowered?

sadly not. i actually talked with the guy who wrote lgpt to see if it
could be ported. the big problem is that the gp2x is fixed point math
only while PSPSeq uses a lot of floating point. converting between
the two would be a lot of work. somewhere down the road i might make
an engine more appropriate for the gp2x but don't hold your breath.

AlbertoZ

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Nov 14, 2007, 3:29:44 AM11/14/07
to PSPSeq

> one thing i'm going to do soon is make some video tutorials (recording
> video on a PC screen is a lot easier than the PSP screen) and post
> them on youtube. sounds like they could be pretty useful for a lot of
> people.

Ethan, great idea. Surely useful!

>
> > Sounds great. Since it runs in sdl, would a gp2x port be possible, or
> > is the unit simply underpowered?
>
> sadly not. i actually talked with the guy who wrote lgpt to see if it
> could be ported. the big problem is that the gp2x is fixed point math
> only while PSPSeq uses a lot of floating point. converting between
> the two would be a lot of work. somewhere down the road i might make
> an engine more appropriate for the gp2x but don't hold your breath.

Yes, but what about processing power? Is really gp2x at the same
level
of 333 Mhz Allegrex PSP CPU? If your processing power computation
when you load a PSPSeq template are correct, something like 95% CPU
seems really
tough even for the PSP, what about GP2X?

Cheers,

Alberto

ethan

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Nov 14, 2007, 8:52:40 AM11/14/07
to PSPSeq
> > sadly not. i actually talked with the guy who wrote lgpt to see if it
> > could be ported. the big problem is that the gp2x is fixed point math
> > only while PSPSeq uses a lot of floating point. converting between
> > the two would be a lot of work. somewhere down the road i might make
> > an engine more appropriate for the gp2x but don't hold your breath.
>
> Yes, but what about processing power? Is really gp2x at the same
> level
> of 333 Mhz Allegrex PSP CPU? If your processing power computation
> when you load a PSPSeq template are correct, something like 95% CPU
> seems really
> tough even for the PSP, what about GP2X?

well there is that aspect as well. the gp2x has 2 200MHz ARM 9
processors. don't know about limitations/bottlenecks in programming
them. assuming it would run on a single core, i'd probably have to do
some assembly programming to optimize the synths to the point where it
would run as fast as it does on the PSP. i'm fairly sure it would be
possible. i have a similar audio engine written all in assembly
running on a dedicated fixed point DSP (80MHz ADSP-2187N in case
anyone's familiar/curious) and i can have nearly as much polyphony on
that chip as i can on the PSP. the C compiler probably adds 2-3x
overhead; i'd like to port some of the PSP code to ASM so you could
run 16 tracks of any synth/fx without worry but it looks pretty tricky
and i just haven't had the time or patience to learn the allegrex
processor to that level of detail.

ethan

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