question on testing

[Karen Cohen]

I developed covid and am isolating as I should be. My last home test was a very slight line to say I'm still positive (my 11th day). My question is... is it known if a very faint line means you are no longer contagious? I'm till isolating until I test negative twice spread by 48 hours. But I'd like to know if I can do more around my house without infecting anyone.

thanks for any insights

Karen

[Peggy Owens]

Karen,

My understanding is that even a faint line means you are still positive. My understanding is that until there is no line at all you need to quarantine.

Be well, Peggy

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[Scott Aronin]

In general, positivity on RATs (rapid tests) correlates quite highly with transmissability. And, it's true that a fainter line generally means less virus is present. But, depending on which brand of RAT and probably a couple of other factors, positive on a RAT means you're likely still somewhat infectious to others.

The study linked below (with a quote pulled also below) testing positive on a RAT correlated between 88% and 99% with the cycle thresholds (a measure of viral load in a person) associated with being infectious.

But, if your second line is faint, hopefully you're close to a negative!

Good luck,

Scott

'For cTs ≤ 30 and cTs ≤ 33, corresponding to the threshold values where SARS-CoV-2 is considered transmissible (according to different studies), the average sensitivity of all RATs was 88.2% and 80.0%, respectively. However, when we only took into account the 5 best RATS the sensitivity was found to be as high as 99.1% (for cT≤ 30) and 90.9% (for cT ≤ 33) (Table 2), while the agreement with rRT-PCR was perfect or almost perfect (99.4%, k = 0.986 for cT≤ 30 and 93.2%, k = 0.838 for cT ≤ 33).'

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02197-z

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From: prote...@googlegroups.com <prote...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Peggy Owens <pegow...@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2023 2:56:14 PM
To: Karen Cohen <ka...@kcenamels.com>
Cc: Protect Pike <Prote...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Milford Covid Task Force] question on testing

 

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[Joan Standora]

Thanks, Scott!

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[Fred Weber]

Why is this even still a discussion? It’s a flu at this point.

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[k@kcenamels_BH]

how is it a flu if testing positive for covid. covid is NOT the flu. I care about possibly infecting others and thus asked the question. I will continue to isolate until testing negative twice after 498 hours!

Stay safe,
Karen L. Cohen

My enameling book: http://www.kcenamels.com/enamel_book2 
Winner of the 2019 Silver Indie Award by Foreword Reviews.

We could learn a lot from crayons. Some are sharp, some are pretty and some are dull. Some have weird names and all are different colors, but they all have to live in the same box and all of them make their mark on the world.

[Gladys S Stefany]

A flu?  Are you kidding???  It is NOT a flu!  Furthermore, even if it was if you don’t mask and you spread the flu to the wrong person it could kill them?  What is it that people in this country refuse to understand?

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[Catherine Skidmore]

Hi - nusing home RN here, dealing with an outbreak at work. 

For congregate care facilities like ours, any positive test will be quarantined for 10 days. Out in public, the CDC has recommended quarantining for five days and then wearing a mask anytime you need to go out for days six through 10. 

You can continue to test positive for up to 90 days, but you are generally no longer infectious after day 10. 

On Jan 15, 2023, at 11:43 AM, ka...@kcenamels.com wrote:

how is it a flu if testing positive for covid. covid is NOT the flu. I care about possibly infecting others and thus asked the question. I will continue to isolate until testing negative twice after 498 hours!

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[Gladys S Stefany]

Thank you, Catherine  Our family has managed to avoid Covid until yesterday when my husband tested positive.  He teaches in a school for disabled children and, out of concern for them, he will be quarantining for 10 days no matter what the tests show.  It’s about time people began to think of others more than they think of their own minor inconveniences.

 

Gladys Stefany

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[Richard Nichols]

I think we all have to use common sense and be considerate.    I have friends who have not been vaccinated and are doing well , they are younger...and  in good health.   and I have friends who have had all the shots and boosters and had a horrible case..  Some of it has to do with overall health and underlying medical conditions..  I plan to be careful, eat well, get my sleep and keep masks handy if I'm concerned.  The flu virus changes every year and the covid virus seems to keep changing as well.  We have to hope that science is doing the best they can...but they don't have all the answers.   

When we were in our summer and the southern hemisphere was in it's winter , they were experiencing an uptick....there was already a strong suspicion that the same thing would happen when we entered our winter season with all the indoor and holiday activity . The southern hemisphere has lower numbers now in their summer with more outdoor activity.   So let's be careful through the winter. and hope for a healthier spring.

Connie

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[Nancy Schoenleber]

I agree with you, Connie, about common sense and consideration; however, those who refuse to be vaccinated without health-related reasons have no consideration for others and are dangerously selfish. As a former public school teacher and administrator, I am dismayed by the growing resistance to vaccinations of all kinds, perhaps especially those that have protected several generations of school children from the terrifying consequences of diseases such as polio and measles. 

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 15, 2023, at 5:23 PM, Richard Nichols <conr...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[dmcoppolo (null)]

I appreciate the caring expressions I find here.  Everyone is entitled to relate their opinions but please remember, feelings are not facts.    It is most helpful to this discussion when friends share their perspective backed with evidence based data. Precious lives are at stake. 

On Jan 16, 2023, at 12:06 AM, Nancy Schoenleber <schoenle...@gmail.com> wrote:

I agree with you, Connie, about common sense and consideration; however, those who refuse to be vaccinated without health-related reasons have no consideration for others and are dangerously selfish. As a former public school teacher and administrator, I am dismayed by the growing resistance to vaccinations of all kinds, perhaps especially those that have protected several generations of school children from the terrifying consequences of diseases such as polio and measles. 

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[Sean Strub]

From my iPhone 

On Jan 16, 2023, at 7:40 AM, 'dmcoppolo (null)' via Protect Pike <Prote...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I appreciate the caring expressions I find here.  Everyone is entitled to relate their opinions but please remember, feelings are not facts.    It is most helpful to this discussion when friends share their perspective backed with evidence based data. Precious lives are at stake. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ProtectPike/186D82FF-ABA6-40DF-8A9B-5B772EBE8A44%40aol.com.

[Richard Nichols]

good conversation...thank you all.

Connie

[Gladys S Stefany]

The nurse at his school (not local – in New Jersey) called this morning so we know where this infection came from.  The individual in question was wearing a mask but it was not an N95 or KN95.  The individual in my family was ignoring all my nagging and was not wearing a mask.  Please see the chart below.  This is why I ALWAYS mask.  We have a disabled adult daughter who depends on us.  I don’t have the luxury or taking the risk with Covid, the flu, or anything else.  Please realize that not everyone’s family is like yours and it is our responsibility to protect the community as much as ourselves.

 

Gladys Stefany

[Gladys S Stefany]

Nancy, I agree with you 100%!

[k@kcenamels_BH]

I agree with Gladys. I thought Christian values was to help thy neighbor. This extends to ensuring their safety and thus masking to help others is important.

One update on my positive testing… I tried a different brand and tested negative. I spoke to the Dr. and she said that after 2 weeks any lingering cough/nasal drip would be like a lingering cough from a cold and thus I was no longer infectious. I will continue wearing a mask out in public, as I do anyway, but I have stopped wearing it at home or being isolated.

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[Fred Weber]

There are consequences to masking those that are in the low risk categories. If you want to compromise your immune system that's your choice or if you have friends, relatives, family members that are compromised tell me to wear a mask if we're getting together....not a problem. If I'm outside, and not in a social setting, leave me alone. 

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/school-mask-mandates-downside/619952/   

  Fred

 

 

fkwma...@gmail.com

 

[Gladys S Stefany]

Fred, I would encourage you to read this article from Johns Hopkins.  Masking does NOT compromise your immune system.

 

Is the Hygiene Hypothesis True? | Johns Hopkins | Bloomberg School of Public Health (jhu.edu)

[Fred Weber]

Thanks I will. But it absolutely does. 

[Fred Weber]

https://www.aier.org/article/the-dangers-of-masks/?gclid=CjwKCAiAzp6eBhByEiwA_gGq5K6wZ3EvqiGi2W_OlPK4HfmuGwsdd0ZEoAsA8-pb2Pzpg92NyxshyxoCFAYQAvD_BwE     

     Fred

 

 

fkwma...@gmail.com

 

[Sean Strub]

The article Fred cited hypothesizes that extended and/or improper use of mass-marketed masks could possibly cause other issues, basically due to inhalation of micro-fibers.  The article is an opinion piece, it does not present any original or new research.  

The lead author of the article is Paul Alexander, a libertarian activist.  His article does not address why the concerns about which he hypothesizes have not yet materialized in populations that have traditionally masked for extended periods of their careers, such as some in healthcare.  

As always, it is important to understand the source.  I've highlighted some parts of the Wikipedia page for the author, Dr. Alexander, that I find relevant to understanding the economic and political agenda that is an important part of Dr. Alexander's work:

Paul Elias Alexander is a Canadian health researcher and a former Trump administration official at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) during the COVID-19 pandemic. Alexander was recruited from his part-time, unpaid position at McMaster University to serve as an aide to HHS assistant secretary for public affairs Michael Caputo in March 2020. In that role, Alexander pressured federal scientists and public health agencies to suppress and edit their COVID-19 analyses to make them consistent with Trump's rhetoric.^[1][2]

Within the Trump Administration, Alexander advocated for a strategy of mass infection of the public with COVID-19 to build herd immunity.^[3] He sought to muzzle federal scientists and public health agencies to prevent them from contradicting the Trump Administration's political talking points.^[4]d

Advisor to Trump administration HHS official[edit]

In late March 2020, Alexander was recruited by Michael Caputo, the newly appointed assistant secretary for public affairs at the United States Department of Health and Human Services (HHS), as his scientific advisor. The two had become friends when Caputo hosted a talk radio show on which Alexander often appeared to talk about scientific subjects. Caputo, who has no scientific background, said in an interview that President Donald Trump had told him to "bring expertise" to his new position and that "the first call I made after I got off the phone with the president" was to offer Alexander a job.^[8]

Coronavirus pandemic and CDC reports[edit]

Main article: Trump administration political interference with science agencies

Alexander and Caputo came under scrutiny for their months-long efforts to exert control over the public messaging of scientists and health officials regarding the coronavirus pandemic in the United States, in particular for efforts to influence the public messaging of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) so that it would be more compatible with Trump's public statements.^[6][2][9] Alexander's efforts were focused on the CDC's widely read Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR), which Caputo and Alexander regarded as containing "political content"; Alexander tried unsuccessfully to get all issues of MMWR held up until personally approved by him.^[10]

Emails written by Alexander and Caputo detailed an attempt to silence career CDC scientists and question their findings as part of what current and former CDC officials called a "campaign of bullying and intimidation" that stretched for five months.^[11] After Dr. Anne Schuchat, the principal deputy director of the CDC, who worked at the agency for 32 years, gave an interview to the Journal of the American Medical Association in which she urged the use of face masks to prevent the spread of the virus, Alexander emailed Caputo calling Schuchat "duplicitous" and claimed, "Her aim is to embarrass the president."^[11] On June 20, 2020, Alexander sent a message to CDC Director Robert R. Redfield, criticizing a CDC report about risks to pregnant women from COVID-19. Alexander said that the report, whose limitations the CDC had acknowledged, would "frighten women" and give the impression that "the President and his administration can't fix this and it is getting worse". He said that in his "opinion and sense" the CDC was "undermining the president by what they put out".^[12] A congressional committee has asked him to testify in September to give information about his interactions with CDC. On August 8, 2020, Alexander wrote to Redfield that "CDC to me appears to be writing hit pieces on the administration"; he asked Redfield to change reports that had already been published and demanded that he be allowed to review and edit MMWR before publication.^[9]

In August and early September 2020, Alexander sent several messages to press officers at the National Institutes of Health attempting to direct Dr. Anthony Fauci's media comments.^[4] In an August 2020 email to HHS officials, Alexander claimed that Fauci was "scaring the nation wrongfully."^[2] Alexander demanded, among other things, that Fauci should refrain from promoting the wearing of masks by children in school and COVID-19 testing of children.^[4] Fauci later said that he had not received the messages and would not have been influenced by them if he had.^[4] In emails in September 2020, Alexander celebrated two instances in which he said CDC officials had bowed to his pressure to water down information in CDC reports. Two days later, he asked Scott Atlas, then an advisor to the Trump White House, to assist him in disputing a CDC report on COVID-19 deaths; Atlas, Alexander, and others wrote a number of op-eds to counter warnings from federal scientists.^[2] Caputo and Alexander also strategized on how to underplay the virus and push for a rapid end to COVID-19-related restrictions on business.^[2] The emails were later obtained by the House Select Oversight Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Crisis.^[2]

In a Facebook Live video posted on his personal website on September 14, 2020, Caputo promoted a variety of unfounded accusations and conspiracy theories,^[13][14][15] including the idea that the CDC harbored a "resistance unit" to undermine Trump; Caputo also accused various scientists of "sedition" and "rotten science".^[13] In the same video, Caputo called Alexander a "genius" and defended his actions.^[13][6] Two days later, HHS announced that Caputo would take a 60-day medical leave of absence from HHS, and that Alexander would permanently leave the department.^[6][16] At a Senate hearing the same day, Redfield said he was "deeply saddened" by Caputo's claims, said they are "not true", and said that "The scientific integrity of the MMWR has not been compromised, and will not be compromised on my watch."^[6]

McMaster University distanced itself from Alexander, saying, "As a consultant, he is not speaking on behalf of McMaster University or the Department of Health Research Methods, Evidence, and Impact."^[6]

In an interview with the Toronto Globe and Mail after his departure from HHS, Alexander defended his actions, stating that he had wanted the CDC to make their reports "more upbeat so that people would feel more confident going out and spending money", and that he "did not think agencies should contradict any president's policy".^[17] Alexander also asserted that he was better suited than CDC scientists to assess data, saying: "None of those people have my skills. I make the judgment whether this is crap."^[11][3

The organization that published the piece, the American Institute for Economic Research is a libertarian think-tank that has long championed fringe perspectives, including on sweatshop labor and climate change, as well as promoting the "herd immunity" strategy for addressing Covid.  From an article in the Guardian:

The institute has a history of funding controversial research – such as a study extolling the benefits of sweatshops supplying multinationals for those employed in them – while its statements on climate change largely downplay the threats of the environmental crisis. It is a partner in the Atlas network of thinktanks, which acts as an umbrella for free-market and libertarian institutions, whose funders have included tobacco firms, ExxonMobil and the Koch brothers. Our questions to the AIER about its relationship to the three signatories went unanswered, but it has posted a number of articles about the declaration and herd immunity on its website.

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[Catherine Skidmore]

I'm going to have to go with "consider the source."

AIER is a libertarian think tank that has often spread misinformation on a variety of topics.

On Jan 18, 2023, at 12:25 PM, Fred Weber <fkwma...@gmail.com> wrote:



<image001.png>

[Gladys S Stefany]

Yes, and given the choice between them or Johns Hopkins, I’ll go with Johns Hopkins every time.

[Meghan Rosenfeld]

My kid’s pediatrician said to stay home for 5 days from positive test results, and then business as usual after. 

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Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 12:25:09 PM

To: Gladys S Stefany <gste...@live.com>

Cc: Catherine Skidmore <cats...@gmail.com>; Joan Standora <jsta...@gmail.com>; Peggy Owens <pegow...@gmail.com>; Protect Pike <prote...@googlegroups.com>; Richard Nichols <conr...@gmail.com>; Scott Aronin <scott...@hotmail.com>; k@kcenamels_BH <ka...@kcenamels.com>

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[Fred Weber]

......my last comment on this thread. It reveals where we are as a Nation. You believe your sources because they mirror your point of view and I think there are counterpoints expressed by other sources to be considered. A major consideration in all of this is what demographic we are talking about. For instance forcing ALL college students to wear masks on campus is idiotic unless they're immuno compromised at which point they need to attend via ZOOM until the all clear is signaled.

     Fred

 

 

fkwma...@gmail.com

 

[Chelle Cordero]

Late to this discussion, but interesting that I JUST came from a post-covid visit with my pulmonologist; 1st, I am  vaccinated and boosted including the more recent bivalent. My husband and I have been ALMOST always very careful (using a mask most times), staying out of crowds, etc.

However, at a recent social event, where we were not seated right next to anyone other than the 2 of us, we were exposed to someone who had no symptoms and had not yet tested positive. Long story short, we got it and were prescribed Paxlovid (both of us have "health histories") It worked because we tested negative soon after. Then... we both suffered a Rebound about a week+ after. this time we were given another anti-viral, and so far, we're negative again (since 1/5)

Okay back to my original statement. My pulmonologist, while agreeing that the mask actually creates some problems because we become more sensitive to germs that we are not exposed to regularly behind the mask, he still prescribes wearing masks as the benefits "far outweigh the risks" (his words), especially if you are a senior or have underlying conditions (like asthma, etc). By the way, he did remind me that the vaccines & boosters do NOT do away with the possibility of getting Covid, but generally it makes it much less problematic and said we should get boosted at least every year.

So I am a bit more paranoid... and will be the one with a mask on almost everywhere!

Wishing you all the best of health.

Chelle

Stop telling G-d how big your storm is... Instead, tell your storm how big your G-D is.

Remember: Amateurs built the Ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

http://chellecordero.blogspot.com

http://chellecordero.com  

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[Sean Strub]

Fred,

Simply because it is a "source" of information doesn't mean that a sources' hypothesis should carry the same weight as facts demonstrated through the scientific method.   

And when someone puts themselves forth as an expert, particularly when they don't have a history of publishing peer-reviewed scholarship on the topic, it is relevant to consider other agendas that person might have that could inform their perspective.

Today, the decision to mask or not, in most contexts, is largely a personal one, based on highly-individualized individual risk assessment, that can be informed by many factors.  I'm fine with that.  

Personally, I try to mask when I am inside in close quarters with others, especially if it seems like a place with poor ventilation, when I am worn down, when I am with others who are potentially immune-compromised, etc.  There are a host of subjective factors involved in those decisions. There are occasions when I regret not having masked, but so far no occasions when I masked and later wished I had not.  I also pay attention to the rate of Covid in the community.

RIght now, there are about twice as many people hospitalized and in ICUs with Covid than there were in October; there is no question but that the risk of acquiring Covid higher than it has been for almost a year.  But, at the same time, there are more treatments and many people have experienced relatively light cases of Covid, for large numbers not much different than a cold.  The risk of serious Covid and/or death varies significantly by demographic, age, weight and all sorts of other factors.

Recognizing and adapting to those realities isn't the same as asserting that "masks don't work" or suggesting some serious danger to masking.

The bottom line for me is that I mask when I am:

• Required to mask:
• In closed/crowded spaces or around others who are elderly and/or immune compromised:
• In spaces where most others are masked; or 
• Am asked to mask.  

Sometimes I've masked when I questioned whether it was necessary but I knew it provided comfort to others around me.  None of us know what time it is in someone else's life; I try to be conscious of this, as I never know what risk factors someone around me might be facing.

In terms of Dr. Alexander's suggestion concerning potential risks of long-term inhalation of micro-fibres from masking, if that occurs, I think it is something worthy of study--especially in children--but I don't equate that hypothetical risk with the very real risk of Covid. 

Sean

[Fred Weber]

Sean, great response. The non expert comment brings Fauci to mind. Who made him our leading virologist?

Fred

[Sean Strub]

Fauci became the country's de facto head virologist under Ronald Reagan, when he was made head of the National Institutes of Allergies and Infectious Diseases in 1984. He directed that agency until last December 31, having served under seven presidents and retiring as the highest  paid employee of the United States (earning more than the President's $400,000 salary).

As you may know, I've been highly critical of Fauci's record on the AIDS epidemic and wrote about this at some length in my book.  In fact, in the last couple of years, Fox News, the National Review and others quoted my book to support their criticism of Fauci's response to Covid.  Senator Ron Johnson from Wisconsin even held a poster of the cover of my book and quoted from it on the Senate floor.

I, too, have been critical of aspects of Fauci's response to Covid, particularly his disingenuous assertion on 60 Minutes that masks were not useful and discouraging their use.  To his mind, that may have been an important message to help preserve N95 masks for healthcare workers, as there was such a shortage, but I don't agree with misleading the public even in pursuit of some supposedly greater good.  

I think the public could have handled and certainly deserved the truth, which was that anything blocking respiratory particles was helpful AND that there was a shortage of N95 masks and it was important we have enough for healthcare workers.  

John Barry spent his career researching the flu pandemic of the early 20th century and when asked what was the single most important lesson we should learn from that horror, it was that “Those in authority must retain the public’s trust. The way to do that is to distort nothing, to put the best face on nothing, to try to manipulate no one.”

Fauci also blew the opportunity to challenge the Trump administration's policies that killed so many Americans.  He was encouraged to address the nation on live TV and risk getting fired by Trump, but he didn't do that either.

Like all of us, he is imperfect, but in my opinion, even with his flaws, he was better suited to direct the nation's response to Covid than anyone else, but much of his advice was ignored.

It's easy to get into the back and forth on individual scientists, policymakers, politicians, etc., and perhaps that is a natural part of the public process, but ultimately it needs to be credible science dictating policy.  

And when the consequences of missteps are so great, the impact on the most vulnerable needs to be the priority.  Fauci, even with his flaws, understood this.  The Libertarian sources you have cited, typically prioritize property rights over public health and the rights of an individual to do whatever they please over communitarian values that protect us all.  

[Fred Weber]

Sean,

Great info on Fauci that folks on this thread need to know. Equally important is that he controlled the funding for many research labs who were beholding to him. Made it easy for him to control the narrative that the Wuhan Lab was not the source as we now know based on his email trail.

Fred

--

[Gladys S Stefany]

I am reading masking for up to five days after you stop testing positive.  I think business as usual five days after testing positive is a bit risky for those you might expose.  My husband is five days out and he still has a faint positive line.  He is still isolating.

[Gladys S Stefany]

No, Fred, believe it or not, not everything is about one’s political viewpoint.  When it comes to our health and that of our communities we need to follow the science and reliable medical sources and not those who espouse points of view that, as you say, agree with us.  I want to know all the FACTS so I can protect myself and my family which is why whenever anyone posts anything on here or elsewhere, I look to reliable medical sources for confirmation before believing a word of it.

[Gladys S Stefany]

Thank you, Sean.  Those are excellent guidelines!

 

From: Sean Strub <sean....@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 2:45 PM
To: Fred Weber <fkwma...@gmail.com>

Cc: Gladys S Stefany <gste...@live.com>; Catherine Skidmore <cats...@gmail.com>; Joan Standora <jsta...@gmail.com>; Peggy Owens <pegow...@gmail.com>; Protect Pike <prote...@googlegroups.com>; Richard Nichols <conr...@gmail.com>; Scott Aronin <scott...@hotmail.com>; k@kcenamels_BH <ka...@kcenamels.com>

[Gladys S Stefany]

Thank you, Chelle.  I’m sorry to hear about the rebound.  I was just reading a study about that yesterday and forewarning my husband.  He works with disabled children in a private school in NJ and we don’t want to send him back to work until we are 100% positive he won’t be putting any of them at risk.

 

The interesting thing is that, according to the study, they are not 100% sure if the rebound is a Paxlovid rebound or if its part of the Covid itself because it happened to both people on Paxlovid as well as people on the placebo.  All three of us including my disabled daughter are on Paxlovid right now.  It will be interesting to see if any of us gets a rebound.

 

 

 

From: Chelle Cordero <cce...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 18, 2023 2:46 PM
To: Sean Strub <sean....@gmail.com>; Fred Weber <fkwma...@gmail.com>
Cc: Gladys S Stefany <gste...@live.com>; Catherine Skidmore <cats...@gmail.com>; Joan Standora <jsta...@gmail.com>; Peggy Owens <pegow...@gmail.com>; Protect Pike <prote...@googlegroups.com>; Richard Nichols <conr...@gmail.com>; Scott Aronin <scott...@hotmail.com>; k@kcenamels_BH <ka...@kcenamels.com>

[Elizabeth Geitz]

Good Afternoon, Sean,

While I no longer live in Pike County, I love being part of this group. I have recently reclaimed my baptismal name of Elizabeth Bradley Rankin and my new email address is elizabeth...@gmail.com.

Thank you for all you do for all of us!

Elizabeth Rankin (formerly Geitz)

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