Matn Talib Al Ilm

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Lauren Redder

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Aug 5, 2024, 12:56:34 PM8/5/24

to propapmise

Thereare certain parts of Nahjol Balaghaa that have led me to question and enquire further. It is truly the peak of eloquence, however, I cannot pretend that there are not some areas which have upset my view of Imam Ali - without tainting all the positive things, I thought I might enquire about one particular section which troubled me, and insha Allah someone may be able to offer their own view.

In letter 54, 'To Talha and az-Zobayr through Emraan bn al-Hosayn al-Khozaai' [28] the explanatory notes tell of Imam Ali setting aside a slave girl from the one-fifth of "chomps" (?) received by Imam. Four of his men decided to complain to the Prophet PBUHAHP and he replied "What do you want me to do to Ali?" - repeating thrice - and then "surely Ali is from me and I am from him, and after me he is the Master of all the believers."

The other theme which is occasionally evident throughout NB, is Imam Ameer Al Momineen's stance on women being weak minded - I am always affected when I come across those expressions and similar ones, as I have achieved much without males in my life, and at times my conditioned has even been worsened by males.

Also, with regard to women not being able to be trusted - I have come across many men who would forget about morality for this world - some part of me wants to believe that the Imam was refering ro his time and era in particular, and that if he saw the condition of societies today and the state of men, he might have said otherwise.

2. Regardless of the gender of human being, everyone should choose a consultant who is strong minded and can make decisions easily and constantly. SO you know that women, except some of them, are not strong enough to make good and long time decisions.

Obviously you will find a mixture of good and bad narrations. Since, books written by Sunnis and Shi'a are not revelations from God. These books were written by humans and their judgements were not perfect. So, it's up to you to either reject or accept any narration from your books.

Imam Ali AS was raised in the home of the Prophet SA, who was his perfect role model and guide. It's not polite to think of Imam Ali AS as a normal man with personal or selfish activities. Imam Ali AS might have planned to teach Islam to her and marry her. Or his intention might have been to educate her and marry her to a believer who had no wife. The note to that Letter 54, including that incident, was to show that the Prophet SA was angry with four companions who tried to slur the name of Imam Ali AS.

Even if you think that the majority of the people throughout history were sinners, we are not talking about them. This topic is about Imam Ali AS, and he was so pious that he is mentioned in Ayat Mubahila, Al-'Imran 3:61.

Waalaykum assalam gentleman. - thank you for your response. I had assumed that all sources in Nahjol Balaagha were verified and accepted among Shia, so I appreciate your input. Also, thank you for putting the statements in context -

IjazLinorAhmad - Waalaykum assalam - thank you, again I had assumed all of the sources in Nahjol Balaghaa to have been verified and unanimously accepted among Shia, and thank you for your second response with some great additional information. Also, I appreciate you recognising that I was not attacking Imam Ali (A.S.)

hameeda - Waalaykum assalam - thank you for the link. My use of the words "chomps" was due to typing it as it was written in the print version of Nahjol Balaghaa that I have, I thought it may have been khums but I wasn't sure. Thank you for clarifying that point.

Nowhere in my intial post have I written that I thought of Imam Ali (A.S.) as a normal man with personal or selfish activities. Insha Allah you had read my entire post, and if you did and you still thought that, I can tell you with certainty that I do not.

I believe that there are differences between Sunnis and Shi'a regarding how to authenticate the narrations. Scholars of before only authenticated narrations that had a reliable chain but they on many occassions did not care about the matn (text). Even if one text said that Ali burned some atheists, it will still be Sahih according to Sunni rules because the Isnad is reliable. Scholars are fallible and hence can do wrong, this is the reason why we should not believe anything blindly.

"Some people apostatized after accepting Islam, and 'Ali burned them with fire. Ibn 'Abbas said: 'If it had been me, I would not have burned them; the Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'No one should be punished with the punishment of Allah.' If it had been me, I would have killed them; the Messenger of Allah [SAW] said: 'Whoever changes his religion, kill him.'"

What sane person will believe that this hadith is sahih? Firstly, Ali went against the Prophet (s.a.w), he said not to burn anyone with fire, but Ali did burn apostates with fire. Thus, from this hadith we get the idea that he disobeyed the Prophet (s.a.w) and it also portrays Ali as a ruthless man. Sahih is not 100% fact. Furthermore, Science of hadith didn't exist at the time of the Prophet (s.a.w), it was gradually developed by scholars. Somehow, we shot ourselves in the foot.

That's quite interesting and perfectly logical. I have not yet come across the idea of considering the matn in Islamic textual analysis - but it makes absolute sense, I just was not sure about what to refute and what not to, as it is easy to be labelled a deviator. Also, as I do not have enough knowledge yet, I have just been reading a lot. The more I come to know, the more I realise how much I don't know...

Within my heart and soul I have such great love and admiration for Imam Amir Al Mo'mineen, however I prefer to follow up with any doubts I have just incase they come back to mind at a later stage. I am limited by my human form...

I have always considered the possibility and likelihood that many sayings and much of the history of Ahlul Bayt may have been tainted by the ruling parties at various times - this is still evidently a tactic in politics today to discredit the opponent or whom they consider the 'enemy' to be. There are other reasons in addition to political reasons too.

With regard to the particular Hadith you mentioned, I do not consider that to be likely behaviour of Imam Ali - but also, I have never personally agreed with our Sunni brothers emphasis on the six Sahih. I went to a Sunni school and was raised by a Shia father and spiritual mother (divorced), so I became familiar with the main beliefs and practices. I have many Sunni friends who are like family to me, but there are just too many important areas I do not agree with (such as the idea of seeing Allah on judgement day - I personally do not believe we will 'see' Allah with physical eyes or in a physical form, perhaps through other senses we cannot fathom we may be aware of Allah, and that is what I lean towards instead - but that's another topic).

Abu Talib was the beloved uncle of prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) and the father of Ali(p.b.u.h.). It is well known that how he protected and acted as a care-taker of the prophet from Quraysh . However, I heard that sunni Muslims consider him to be died as a non-muslim while shia muslims do not hold such and venerate him. ( Please correct/edit if any of what said above was wrong)

It is reported by Sa'id b. Musayyib who narrated it on the authority of his father (Musayyib b. Hazm) that when Abu Talib was about to die, the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) came to him and found with him Abu Jahl ('Amr b. Hisham) and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya ibn al-Mughirah. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

My uncle, you just make a profession that there is no god but Allah, and I will bear testimony before Allah (of your being a believer), Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya addressing him said: Abu Talib, would you abandon the religion of 'Abdul-Muttalib? The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) constantly requested him (to accept his offer), and (on the other hand) was repeated the same statement (of Abu Jahl and 'Abdullah b. Abi Umayya) till Abu Talib gave his final decision and be stuck to the religion of 'Abdul-Muttalib and refused to profess that there is no god but Allah. Upon this the Messenger of Allah remarked: By Allah, I will persistently beg pardon for you till I am forbidden to do so (by God), It was then that Allah, the Magnificent and the Glorious, revealed this verse: " It is not meet for the Prophet and for those who believe that they should beg pardon for the polytheists, even though they were their kith and kin, after it had been made known to them that they were the denizens of Hell" (ix. 113) And it was said to the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ): " Verily thou canst not guide to the right path whom thou lovest. And it is Allah Who guideth whom He will, and He knoweth best who are the guided" (xxviii, 56).

The Imamiyah scholars are unanimous about the fact that Abu Talib died as a Muslim. Due to his massive support of Prophet Muhammad and certain accounts they believe in, they believed that he was a Muslim but disguised himself as a polytheist.

Till Abu Talib said as the last thing he said to them, "I am on the religion of `Abdul Muttalib," and refused to say: None has the right to be worshipped except Allah. On that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "By Allah, I will keep on asking Allah's forgiveness for you unless I am forbidden (by Allah) to do so." So Allah revealed:--