Plot ideas after having played the 2.0.1 demo

[theophys]

Greetings and many thanks to all the Project 6014 developers. As a fan of the original SC2 universe, I would like to be able to contribute to the Project. I'm not a programmer but I think I can contribute to the writing, playtesting, editing, and design. 

So far, I have a few very general plot ideas. Please feel free to implement or discard any of these, the way you see fit. Alternatively, one may *hint* at a plot line without even implementing it - this is also very inspiring in play. 

1. ORZ/ARILOU/ANDROSYNTH.

I love the idea of the Orz playing an important part of the sequel but... I think the key ingredient in presenting them well is *suspense*. This is the part of the SC2 plot which can be enhanced to be just brilliant. As we remember, the original developers of SC2 "mean the Orz to be creepy", even to the point of "nasty things happening if the Orz are ever taken to QuasiSpace"... Probably the idea didn't survive playtesting, so the Orz just ended up being "funny", and a rather powerful ally too, for any player who wasn't foolish enough to hard-press them on the Androsynth fate. The player kinda gets the warning signs but can just ignore them because apparently nothing bad happens. 

Same with the Arilou: they were a tiny bit alarming on certain subjects but their benefits so much outweighed these alarms that they ended up being as close to "benefactors of the game" as they could. 

Is there any chance to bring the suspense about the Orz and the Arilou back into the game? The trick is to avoid one extreme (turning the Orz into "a convenient source of rapid transit"), or the other (making the Orz too dangerous to be worth interacting with).

I have a few ideas. 

(a) Very close interaction with the Orz should still represent a threat to the player, even though the level of threat may be much exaggerated. We remember that "knowing too much about the matter can alert 'THEM' to our presence". Maybe there is another Orz-like entity *below* (Orz *cousins*?) waiting to take over the Earthlings just as the present Orz took over the Androsynth? Maybe it is the Arilou modifications in the past which is protecting the humans from such a fate? Maybe the amount of this "protection" has its limits, and too much exposure to the Orz (something like a cumulative factor with a *very* slow onset, increasing with each conversation with the Orz, or having their ships in the fleet, or using OrzSpace, or especially, asking some revealing questions or researching some revealing information) will first trigger "weird" effects like sudden warps into OrzSpace, or sudden random encounters with hostile Orz out of nowhere (about which the original Orz are apparently unaware), or sudden decrease of the number of crew deployed to Orz ships... any creepy and mysterious "reality aberrations" will do), and then trigger the end of the Earth and be a "game over". It could be a separate plot to prevent this from happening and to "recover" safe interactions with the Orz. The Taalo could have a role to play here (after all, if the Orz "possession" can be triggered mentally, maybe a device like the Taalo shield could be used - unbeknownst to the Humans - as a means to safeguard against ending up like the Androsynth?)

(b) OrzSpace should be effective for travel but *dangerous*. The "fingers" idea is cool but if it is programmed in such a way that using auto-pilot completely disables any chance of an encounter, then most players will just ignore it. Still, a "finger" suddenly spawned in the player's way is annoying rather than creepy. Maybe the "fingers" should only spawn outside the radar and then make their way toward the player's ship? They could be slow-ish (so the player's ship is able to outrun/outmaneuver them) but some of them should probably be "hunting" the player. Maybe a Melnorme technology should be available so that an auto-pilot is programmed to automatically find its way around/away from "fingers".

(c) QuasiSpace could be retained as a means of travel (not just the way towards the Arilou homeworld), and a good ol' Portal Spawner could be made available some time in the game (see UR-QUAN below) but it could be made much less effective than OrzSpace (and less effective than it was on the original SC2). Perhaps the exits from QuasiSpace to TrueSpace in the 6014 quadrant could be made (much?) fewer and farther between. (Of course, the "old" portals leading to regions outside the new starmap should be turned off for playability reasons).

(d) Perhaps there could be a subplot where Orz and Arilou can be brought to direct confrontation. Maybe leading the Orz to the Arilou homeworld, or having Orz and Arilou ships in one fleet, or bringing Arilou to OrzSpace, or, or, could lead to conflicts between the two races, where the player is forced to take sides or enter into a quest to restore peace between the two? 

(e) Perhaps the Arilou could also have a "dark secret" for the player to uncover? The main theme about them is "they appear to be helping us, but for what reason"? Maybe the reason would reveal itself and be less than attractive, or maube the Umgah could play a practical joke and impersonate the Arilou to reveal their motives, later found to be wrong?

(f) Was all the dimensional fatigue research by the Androsynth all in vain? Perhaps upon discovering/rescuing/winning over the Androsynth, the player will be able to build and use "new, faster forms of hyperdrive and hyperwave"? 

2. TAALO / UR-QUAN

Here I think it would be good to re-use the Yehat/Shofixti line from the original SC2. If the Ur-Quan feel their guilt for having destroyed the Taalo, then maybe proving to them that the Taalo live (by whatever means) may make the Ur-Quan reconsider their Doctrines (and make Kohr-Ah peaceful, at least for some time)? Maybe after that there could be a further plot to re-unite the Ur-Quan from Kzer-Za and Kohr-Ah strains, involving several parts:

- persuading the Kohr-Ah; 

- finding the departed Kzer-Za; 

- finding a way to travel to them or communicate with them (maybe using distant OrzSpace/QuasiSpace, or venturing into uncharted territory outside the star map where autopilot cannot be used, or finding a super-powerful HyperWave transmitter, or a secret Precursor artifact technology, or even tailoring an instant-communication technology from the Exotics, could even be several options)

- persuading the Kzer-Za;

- figuring out a way to splice their genes together (Umgah could be useful here)

- gathering the necessary artifacts to accelerate the genetic modification (something like the Sun Device, or maybe temporarily transport the race to a part of OrzSpace where time flows faster, and back again)?

The end result could be the Ur-Quan joining the new Alliance (with its both types of ships). Maybe there could be a choice of keeping either the Ur-Quan or the Chmrr in (the other becoming either a neutral race or an enemy, depending on player's diplomacy skills). This could even turn into a major fork of the story around midgame - a choice between restoring the wayward Chmrr or reuniting the Ur-Quan.

3. EXOTICS (or whatever name is finally chosen for the main antagonist). 

I find the idea of them representing a "neural network spanning the galaxy" just awesome, but I think a good deal of effort needs to be devoted to how the player is allowed to interact with them. Do you remember "SC3"? I believe it sucked to not even have had a glimpse of "the Eternal Ones"; and I think it sucked even more to have had a direct conversation with the Precursors (And rightly so - it is *darn difficult* to create a meaningful dialogue with such an ancient and (nearly) omnipotent being). 

MAYBE it should remain a mystery up until the endgame that the Exotics are an actual race rather than a "natural phenomenon"? Maybe it should just appear that there is a constant force impeding certain actions of the Alliance (with various races falsely claiming credit for this - the Lurg coming to mind first - and where the player is led to suspect almost every other race to be secretly involved - Orz, Arilou, Melnorme, and even Taalo may fall under this category especially well). 

MAYBE the player should keep discovering artifacts and technologies that look very powerful - like instant communication or gravity weapons - and are mostly beneficial to the player, to the point of being able to solve certain quests (see above in UR-QUAN) but which will let the player down at a critical moment (a weapon refuses to fire in a critical battle, or a communication technology communicates a vital message to a wrong target... your mileage may vary). One should slowly begin suspecting that there is a system in these failings... not quite sentience... but not like random occasions...

MAYBE the primary discovery would be to find out that Exotics are really *against* sentience because they see life as increasing of the galaxy's entropy (favoring more chaos), and thus viewing all the sentient races as "too structured", which in their mind is "destructive to the galaxy's life on the grand scale"? 

MAYBE finding the right way to interact with them could be the primary quest of the game (and yes, the idea of any "node" trying to make contact with a sentient race classified as "bad" and eliminated is awesome as the primary obstacle to this). Maybe the network of rainbow worlds, plus a few researched technologies, could make a "planet network" capable to interact with the Exotics entity? The interaction process itself... Yeah, the bulk of it could be under the hood ("the techs figured out how...") but it should be even more exotic than the Orz. A completely new form of dialogue, and on a larger scale. Something like "we transmit them our message - see a response in the rearrangement of stars - prepare a differemt message in return...". Getting the required number of right messages to the Exotics could be a series of quests in itself, rather monotonous at that, but rich in gameplay. Probably this kind of routine at the end game can save it from that cheesy "everything revolves around the main character now" feeling that ruined the gameplay of so many games in their ending stage.

Should you find anything of this inspiring, I am willing to help you elaborating along these lines. 

Thanks

Sergei.

 

[Gergely Sinkó]

Hi Sergei!

I'm usually the argumentative person aboard this project, therefore I have little to say about the Orz/Arilou/Androsynth part because generally I agree with you. Let's make interaction with the Orz a spooky experience! I think OrzSpace should be risky to use, or at least conditionally safe. Perhaps an Orz Nemesis companion could save the player from being grabbed by OrzSpace *fingers*, but the same ship also makes the Taalo captives attack without communication, so the player has to take chances in order to converse with them.

What I'm not really fond of is introducing a complex set of possibilities regarding the Orz-Arilou conflict, or putting any more weight to their drama than necessary, or unfolding much about their mystery. I wouldn't keep QuasiSpace because it would be more than what we need, and QuasiSpace itself would be trivialized as a tool for our convenience. It's better to keep it mysteriously disappeared, with the implication that there is a mechanism about the inter-dimensional conflict of the Arilou-Orz-and-others-not-yet-known that makes bypass dimension portals appear and disappear in HyperSpace.

About keeping Earth safe from Orz: It's a good idea to fend off a threat different from the ultimate one. That happened in SC2 when the player deactivated the Slylandro Probes, however the Probes posed a threat to all of HyperSpace which made it fatal enough to generate a Game Over situation. I think the goal of the game is to protect as many as possible inhabiting HyperSpace, so losing Earth is only a partial failure, we still can protect others from the Lurg/Exotics. Nevertheless this looks a cool idea and might be the thing needed to make Earth more involved with the game.

As for Androsynth IDF tech: Remember that only accessing the data about it causes maddening sensations for humans. If there is an IDF device, I'd want it to be salvaged from the Androsynth homeworld -- since the refuge world in the Armstrong constellation is made of Androes not knowing about IDF. Maybe it's an instant portal opener to OrzSpace which makes us *smell* like tasty Orz food. Every activation of it makes 10-20 of our crew disappear and therefore is morally questionable to use more than once in the total playtime (because no one blames the Captain for using it once, not knowing of it's side effects, after that however is different).

About the Taalo/Ur-Quan part:
I'm really not for using aces twice. It makes games predictable, and the whole Taalo-Quan thing is just too predictable and idealistic. Everyone seems to want the Quans rejoin like the Yehat-Pkunk did and make the Quans reconsider their Doctrines. Yielding to such needs would only make our timeline like a conveyor belt where everything is prepared to construct a conclusion people seem to have guessed already. I don't see any point in that.

I'm okay with the Taalo involvement until the point where the Kohr-Ah reconsider their actions. But their Doctrines? No. They are 20000 years old customs which they believe made them stronger in survival. Also their guilt for destroying the Taalo has nothing to do with these customs: they have born from the suffering and embarassment under 3000 years of slavery under Dnyarri rule. Showing them that the Taalo live may sway them a bit, but their ultimate conclusion is this: "destroy/enslave the Taalo! Even if they are our friends, they are a threat!" This shows in other Milieu races being already destroyed/enslaved.

On the long run, reaching a closure by making the Quans rejoin is also just too predictable. Is everything split in two only so we can make it one again? Do the Quans deserve such a feeble role? What about a bit of drama?

What about the Kohr-Ah, weakened in the Rath split, getting mysteriously destroyed for the time the next episode plays, leaving clues behind to solve the puzzle? (episode 2)
What about the Kzer-Za, with losing their black counterparts, feeling to have lost an important part of themselves that can never be restored? However they struggle with this reality, and as a replacement they declare another Doctrinal Conflict against the New Alliance of Free Stars' code of cooperation. But against a powerful third party they are being led into a realization which makes them part of a new community formed with Alliance races (episode 3) -- helping the Captain in his last quest that reveals the truth about the Precursors and the interdimensional conflict. (episode 4)

I'll return to the rest of it next time.

[drac...@aim.com]

Hello all,

I finally got back on trying to figure out how to make the dialog system work. In particular, I'm focusing on either generating timestamps or alleviating the need for them. See... OMG. This may be ridiculous. Maybe it was crashing only because I had Pkunk voice pack installed and it didn't match the altered pkunk script. I'll check. Anyway, I'll need to get on the second phase of the project - making this compatible with voices.

Anyway, I'll see what I can do.
I was going to reply to Sergei, but then I got this, which said most of what I'd say.

On Sep 6, 2012, at 5:29 AM, Gergely Sinkó wrote:

> Let's make interaction with the Orz a spooky experience! I think OrzSpace should be risky to use, or at least conditionally safe. Perhaps an Orz Nemesis companion could save the player from being grabbed by OrzSpace *fingers*, but the same ship also makes the Taalo captives attack without communication, so the player has to take chances in order to converse with them.

Or each time you touch a finger, it's a conversation with an Orz or Arilou captain explaining how they're going to have to wrestle this thing, and if you run our of Arilou or Orz ships, only then is it game over. So getting to talk to the Taalo could simply be expensive in a more ordinary sense.

> What I'm not really fond of is introducing a complex set of possibilities regarding the Orz-Arilou conflict, or putting any more weight to their drama than necessary, or unfolding much about their mystery.

I agree - if we can make this shift like the Nngn hunt, that would be ideal

> As for Androsynth IDF tech: Remember that only accessing the data about it causes maddening sensations for humans. If there is an IDF device, I'd want it to be salvaged from the Androsynth homeworld -- since the refuge world in the Armstrong constellation is made of Androes not knowing about IDF. Maybe it's an instant portal opener to OrzSpace which makes us *smell* like tasty Orz food. Every activation of it makes 10-20 of our crew disappear and therefore is morally questionable to use more than once in the total playtime (because no one blames the Captain for using it once, not knowing of it's side effects, after that however is different).

Interesting mechanic.

> About the Taalo/Ur-Quan part:
...

> I'm okay with the Taalo involvement until the point where the Kohr-Ah reconsider their actions. But their Doctrines? No.

The doctrines are strongly causally connected to their actions. I don't see splitting them apart being viable.

> On the long run, reaching a closure by making the Quans rejoin is also just too predictable. Is everything split in two only so we can make it one again? Do the Quans deserve such a feeble role? What about a bit of drama?

Agreed.

> What about the Kohr-Ah, weakened in the Rath split, getting mysteriously destroyed for the time the next episode plays, leaving clues behind to solve the puzzle? (episode 2)
> What about the Kzer-Za, with losing their black counterparts, feeling to have lost an important part of themselves that can never be restored? However they struggle with this reality, and as a replacement they declare another Doctrinal Conflict against the New Alliance of Free Stars' code of cooperation. But against a powerful third party they are being led into a realization which makes them part of a new community formed with Alliance races (episode 3) -- helping the Captain in his last quest that reveals the truth about the Precursors and the interdimensional conflict. (episode 4)

The mysterious destruction could be due to the actions of the Shlthuk (previously FleeingRace), if they perceived they had the advantage. I was also considering the possibility that some of them could have captured Kohr-Ah infants. Not sure what to do with that.

Luke

[theophys]

Hi Kwayne, 

Thanks for replying! 

I agree with most of what you say. Indeed I totally forgot about Yehat/Pkunk. In light of this, Ur-Quan reuniting would indeed be cheesy and idealistic, and what looks good with Pkunk will look feeble with Quans. 

But... if it is so predictable and if everyone seems to want it, why not turn this into a kind of "intended false trail"? Getting the Kohr-Ah to  cease their raids (at least temporarily) because of the rediscovered Taalo, and then leading the player to *believe* (perhaps through another Umgah "practical joke") that the races can indeed be reunited through a series of quests - wouldn't that be a nice touch? Some players won't believe that outright (thinking it's too idealistic to be true), others will lose some time chasing the rainbow's end (and discovering that the Doctrines are far stronger than they believed), others will still try to solve this puzzle against all odds, like there were people scouting all the planets searching for an Ilwrath cloaking device...

About the Orz threat to humans: YES, losing Earth would only be a partial failure but how about making the Orz threat apply (interdimensionally!) to all humans at once, including the Captain? Then it's a secondary threat, yes, but without avoiding it or fending it off, the Captain won't succeed in his main mission.

About the IDF device - I meant that it could be based on some knowledge from the OrzSpase Androsynth plus something harvested from their former homeworld or/and Alpha Lalande where the original Precursor IDF artifacts were found. Otherwise, I totally agree with you. The device mechanics you suggested is cool. 

[Gergely Sinkó]

2012/9/6 theophys <theo.p...@gmail.com>

Hi Kwayne, 

Thanks for replying! 

I agree with most of what you say. Indeed I totally forgot about Yehat/Pkunk. In light of this, Ur-Quan reuniting would indeed be cheesy and idealistic, and what looks good with Pkunk will look feeble with Quans. 

But... if it is so predictable and if everyone seems to want it, why not turn this into a kind of "intended false trail"? Getting the Kohr-Ah to cease their raids (at least temporarily) because of the rediscovered Taalo, and then leading the player to *believe* (perhaps through another Umgah "practical joke") that the races can indeed be reunited through a series of quests - wouldn't that be a nice touch?

Of course some conversation lines may falsely imply that, however that would only mean that those sources have very poor insight about the Ur-Quan way of reasoning.

The Melnorme -- who spent the longest time with them along their history in the Milieu and beyond -- might be the only ones who know them and the mechanics of their doctrines enough to be able to provide realistic predictions regarding the revealing of the Taalo survival. However they probably won't speak about this until the Captain makes them confess about their Mael-Num identity. The investigation about the Faz may trigger this confession, opening up a new category of informations for sale -- of course -- about their Milieu history.

Some players won't believe that outright (thinking it's too idealistic to be true), others will lose some time chasing the rainbow's end (and discovering that the Doctrines are far stronger than they believed), others will still try to solve this puzzle against all odds, like there were people scouting all the planets searching for an Ilwrath cloaking device...

Anyway, if the Kohr-Ah meet their death before any opportunity to unify the two Quan races, the question remains tragically unanswered -- which I'd really like to see in our story.
 

About the Orz threat to humans: YES, losing Earth would only be a partial failure but how about making the Orz threat apply (interdimensionally!) to all humans at once, including the Captain? Then it's a secondary threat, yes, but without avoiding it or fending it off, the Captain won't succeed in his main mission.

It would be more interesting to see a possible ending where the Captain wins, yet he lost Earth in the process. Players are humans and therefore empathic about the fate of our planet. Winning like this is a victory so sour, the player is almost sure to replay the whole game again just to see the victory ending with Earth still intact.

That's why the Orz threat should only apply locally to Earth and the Earthling SOI, though the Captain could still be in danger, in parallel with the Earth-Orz subplot but not depending on it's outcome. Also ruling out the possibility of an undistinguishing race-wide genocide by the Orz would better explain how some Androsynth could have survived far away from the Vulpeculae constellation in TrueSpace.

About the IDF device - I meant that it could be based on some knowledge from the OrzSpase Androsynth plus something harvested from their former homeworld or/and Alpha Lalande where the original Precursor IDF artifacts were found. Otherwise, I totally agree with you. The device mechanics you suggested is cool.

 
It may be possible that possessing this technology has an effect on the outcome of the Earth-Orz subplot too.

[Gergely Sinkó]

@drachefly: indeed the actions of the Kohr-Ah are the consequence of their doctrines. A poor choice of words on my part. The point is still that both Doctrines are created because of more than the destruction of their friends, in fact the Taalo were destroyed because of their enslavement by the Dnyarri. Even in case the Taalo survived the Dnyarri empire, the Ur-Quan doctrines might still have born -- and in the best case would have made the Taalo end up under a Slave Shield.

When did the FleeingRace become the Shlthuk? I never heard. Is there a documentation about this somewhere?

But yes, it's possible that they might be involved with the destruction of the Kohr-Ah. If the next episode is about this, perhaps they could feel like some ominous, shadowy heralds of the future. Maybe their role is simply that, with no puzzle attached to them, at least in our current episode.

[drac...@aim.com]

On Sep 7, 2012, at 5:20 AM, Gergely Sinkó wrote:

> When did the FleeingRace become the Shlthuk? I never heard. Is there a documentation about this somewhere?

I never... sent... that?

Weird. Okay, I was working on a big dialog file for them covering their background, and thought I mentioned it.
I never did.

I'll finish it and check it in.

[Gergely Sinkó]

Heard the name I think, but didn't read any description about them. It was suggested that they are a reptilian species -- on the basis that reptilians were never encountered in any canon SC -- with skin color changing from time to time.

On second thought they might have a kind of darlok-ish appearance: covered in robes, face hidden in the shadow, only the faint glow of weary eyes showing, other crewmembers operating strange instruments with ritual movements in a room only partially lighted. The eyes change color with every blink. Just an idea.

2012/9/7 <drac...@aim.com>

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[drac...@aim.com]

On Sep 8, 2012, at 8:33 AM, Gergely Sinkó wrote:

> Heard the name I think, but didn't read any description about them. It was suggested that they are a reptilian species -- on the basis that reptilians were never encountered in any canon SC -- with skin color changing from time to time.
>
> On second thought they might have a kind of darlok-ish appearance: covered in robes, face hidden in the shadow, only the faint glow of weary eyes showing, other crewmembers operating strange instruments with ritual movements in a room only partially lighted. The eyes change color with every blink. Just an idea.

Actually, I made them up way back in the 20th century.

They're roughly spherical, and covered in long bladelike metallic fur that's black on one side and reflective on the other - both for temperature regulation in a super-arid environment and radiation resistance. They move by shifting their weight and rolling.

They have arms that fold up flush to their bodies. These are metallic as well - extruded from their fleshy interior. Their eyes are held on the inside, and gain views to the outsides by arranging the reflective sides of their fur appropriately.

They do not use artificial gravity in their ships.

As for the rest... well, why don't I put it in their words. Here's one of the nodes I wrote for their dialog. I'm still adding things, like additional captains' personal histories.

node aboutYou

option >askedHome
What was your homeworld like? // captain's line
The world on which we evolved? // Shlthuk lines...
Just about the only aspects of it that still penetrate our culture
are the lengths of days and years.
It was a miserable place.
Too hot in the day, too cold at night, and always too dry.
And getting worse all the time.
Eventually, we figured out that millions of years ago,
our sun absorbed the innermost planet in the system.
This made the sun hotter. Hot enough that water was no longer well-bound to our world.
Our rise to sapience was driven by the competition for this dwindling water supply.
Civilization made matters much worse by spreading water into areas it had no business being.
By the time we realized that water really was disappearing,
and tales of plenty in old times were not merely nostalgia for a mythical past,
it was nearly too late.
We set out to retrieve water from the further-out bodies in the system.
By the time we had it, there was little point in returning - there was more biodiversity in our domes than in the wild.
Yes. Toward the end, even those of us on the homeworld were living in domes.
.aboutYou

option =askedHome >askedBorn +seenGenderIssue
Where were you born? What's your family like?
My home is in Kirii, a nickel-iron asteroid a little thicker than your vessel is long.
I was born in an elegant six-chamber near the gardens.
My father was a mechanic. He died of age fifteen years ago.
When I was grown up, my mother became a gladiator captain.
He died only last year, when the Kohr-Ah dispersed in this space.
I live with my husband and wife, and the younger of our two daughters.
Actually, it's been some time since the older one has been home -
She may already be a father.
.aboutYou

option =askedHome >askedFloat +seenGenderIssue
It sounds like you were forced to live among the stars, like the Syreen?
Forced?
Living among the stars is great!
We weren't crammed into little habitat ships.
We filled up every asteroid, every small moon.
Anywhere we could seal in the air.
It's a lot easier when you don't feel the overriding urge to install grav-plates everywhere.
Space is much richer than the floorbound existence you seem to cling to.
I never experienced a planet's gravity when I was a girl.
Even as a young man, I only visited small moons with a weak pull.
.aboutYou

option =seenGenderIssue >genderIssueExplained
What's this with girls becoming boys?
Like every other Shlthuk, I was born a girl.
As one bears children, one changes to a woman.
Once they have been weaned, one's womanhood is complete and one becames a young man.
If one did not bear any children, one eventually changes from girl to boy.
Either way, within a few years, one is a man.
I am an old man - I had my children when we were restricting our population.
So, I bore one daughter and fathered one.
We are aware this is not how you - or most races - are,
so do not worry that we will treat your women as if they were little more than children.
.aboutYou

option >askedFur
Your hairs are very striking. What are they for?
Temperature regulation and radiation protection.
The black side faces the sun to warm, or the black sky to cool, or inward to insulate.
We use the reflective sides as periscopes, too.
Keeping our fur facing to or from the sun is more natural to us than rolling.
.aboutYou

option >askedKohrAh
When the Kohr-Ah came, how did you escape?
When we heard of the Kohr-Ah
from our dearly lamented neighbors, the Eow,
it seemed too horrible to contemplate.
But the expense of packing up and leaving was much lower for us than most other races.
So we did.
We fitted hyperspace drives onto every rock possible, and got them moving.
The rest we smashed into homeworld, systematically eradicating every sign we'd ever been there.
.aboutYou

option =askedKohrAh =askedBorn >askedBigRockHS
You put Hyperspace drives on asteroids larger than this ship? How did you do that?
Captain, we are very grateful for what you've done for us
For the galaxy.
Thanks to you, our need for this ability is much smaller than it once was.
And moreover we trust you.
So we are very confident things will work out for the best when we tell you,
No.
That is our secret, and there's really no way you can get it from us.
Sorry.
.aboutYou

option =askedKohrAh >askedNeverCame
Since you 'cleaned' your planet, the Kohr-Ah never came after you?
Not at first.
In the beginning, we had the habit of warning races ahead of us.
Of course, the Kohr-Ah overheard chatter mentioning us.
One race in particular was awful, and told them exactly where we went
even as the Kohr-Ah informed them that stabbing us in the back wouldn't buy their lives.
Their race-name is a grievous insult among our people.
I won't even dirty my tongue by saying it.
.aboutYou

option =askedNeverCame >toldSacrifice
After the Kohr-Ah found out about you, I'd bet they gave you a lot of trouble!
That is putting it mildly.
Still, we'd been preparing since before we set out in the first place.
With our gladiator vessels, specifically designed to take on their marauders,
We were able to pick off their scouts.
Old men volunteered for suicide missions to flank them, draw their attention in other directions.
But it became clear the Kohr-Ah would eventually find us and bring the full strength of their fleet against us.
Ninety million martyrs elected to straggle behind, giving the rest of us a lead.
We never heard from them again,
and the Kohr-Ah stopped chasing us specifically.
.aboutYou

option =toldSacrifice >toldPopulation
A sacrifice of ninety million boggles the mind. How many of you are there?
Around twenty billion, across six hundred thousand homes.
At the time of the martyrs, there were only six billion.
.aboutYou

option =toldSacrifice >warnOthers
Did you ever warn another race?
Not after the martyrdom.
We fooled them twice.
Three times?
Not a chance.
.aboutYou

option >reset -toldSacrifice -toldPopulation -askedNeverCame -askedBigRockHS -askedBorn -askedKohrAh -askedFur -genderIssueExplained -seenGenderIssue -askedFloat -askedBorn -askedHome
I'm confused. Can we take it from the beginning?
We may.
.aboutYou

option
That's enough about your race for now, thanks.
Very well. Back to business?
.main

[Gergely Sinkó]

What I can deduct from this conversation is that the Shlthuk was never put out to the rest of the project members for scrutiny. Does at least Jaakko or Cedric know and approve of this? If not, then isn't writing dialogue for them a bit too early?

Just asking. Trying to understand this situation.

2012/9/8 <drac...@aim.com>

[drac...@aim.com]

On Sep 9, 2012, at 11:41 AM, Gergely Sinkó wrote:

> What I can deduct from this conversation is that the Shlthuk was never put out to the rest of the project members for scrutiny. Does at least Jaakko or Cedric know and approve of this? If not, then isn't writing dialogue for them a bit too early?
>
> Just asking. Trying to understand this situation.

The FleeingRace concept was described and agreed on. I stuck to that in terms of history.

Words are cheap. If you don't like them, I can make new ones.

Luke

[Gergely Sinkó]

I know I'm sometimes pushing to the limits of others' patience with endless questioning, and I could only hope that I don't make people here feel that I'm intruding in their territory. Nevertheless, just say when should I buzz off.

Indeed I see a FleeingRace description on the wiki, but that's all I knew about them.

A few things struck me when I was reading the conversation. I'm not sure if some details are necessary to be asked about the Shlthuk. The answers are indeed interesting, but I don't see why the Captain gets to the point of asking about their fur, their genders, how they fit hyperspace engines on asteroids, or personal info. Apparently the conversation always reveal something that somehow catches the interest of the Captain, even though he or the player doesn't gain anything more than descriptions. In SC2 the conversation options led somewhere. They were there so the Captain/Player has a chance to gain something: a piece of mystery, humor, elements, starships, alliances, primary or secondary clues for the puzzle. I'm not against descriptive parts, they're still very useful as introduction, though they're not important enough to be so long and deep.

Here's an example introduction (may sound kind of stupid but I didn't want to be too specific):
C: "Please tell something about yourselves."
S: "We are people away from home, hiding from the menace of a dark enemy sworn to destroy us." (trying to avoid using the unelegant word "race" and the baseless assumption that the "Kohr-Ah" name means anything to the Captain)
C: "I have a hunch that your enemy is the Kohr-Ah."
S: "So you know about them? And you're still alive!" (baseless assumption intended to be mildly humorous)
C: "Actually I ..." bla bla bla and here starts a conversation where the puzzlesolving/exploitation begins.

At some points the conversation goes into personal depths, which makes me wonder: is the Captain speaking with an individual character like Fwiffo or a random starship captain of the race? If the former, does mentioning his family accomplish something? In the case of Fwiffo, asking about him makes Fwiffo convinced about his own safety with the Captain, resulting in an additional Spathi Eluder with 1 crew. Does the Shlthuk individual do personal favors like that?

The story with the Kohr-Ah is fine, it's bound to an important aspect of this race, also it gives a clue about what should be expected in a region we couldn't explore yet. In other words, it provides space for speculations -- mystery is important for any next episode of any SC game.

What's the most problematic here is the visual description of the race. The roughly spherical design is already taken by the Taalo -- it simply fits them best. Could we please change the Shlthuk to a different but unique design? Doesn't have to be something suggested earlier, in fact I'd keep the zero-grav aspect and play with it.

Depending on their design the style of their speech might be quirky: stuttering, speaking in rhymes, speaking vocally, ritual humming etc. Would add to their character.

2012/9/10 <drac...@aim.com>

[drac...@aim.com]

On Sep 11, 2012, at 2:41 PM, Gergely Sinkó wrote:

> I know I'm sometimes pushing to the limits of others' patience with endless questioning, and I could only hope that I don't make people here feel that I'm intruding in their territory. Nevertheless, just say when should I buzz off.
>
> Indeed I see a FleeingRace description on the wiki, but that's all I knew about them.
>
> A few things struck me when I was reading the conversation.

Conversation fragment. This is all within the 'tell me about you' section, where this sort of stuff belongs.

> I'm not sure if some details are necessary to be asked about the Shlthuk. The answers are indeed interesting, but I don't see why the Captain gets to the point of asking about their fur, their genders, how they fit hyperspace engines on asteroids, or personal info. Apparently the conversation always reveal something that somehow catches the interest of the Captain, even though he or the player doesn't gain anything more than descriptions. In SC2 the conversation options led somewhere. They were there so the Captain/Player has a chance to gain something: a piece of mystery, humor, elements, starships, alliances, primary or secondary clues for the puzzle. I'm not against descriptive parts, they're still very useful as introduction, though they're not important enough to be so long and deep.

...
> I had great dreams in those days, yes, great dreams!
> I knew that someday I would be vastly rich, wealthy enough to afford a large, well-fortified mansion.
> Surrounding my mansion would be vast tracts of land, through which I could slide at any time I wished!
> Of course, one can never be too sure that there aren't monsters hiding just behind the next bush
> so I would plant trees to climb at regular, easy to reach intervals.
> And being a Spathi of the World, I would know that some monsters climb trees, though often not well
> so I would have my servants place in each tree a basket of perfect stones
> not too heavy, not too light -- just the right size for throwing at monsters.
> I was thinking about what color the stones would be painted (aqua, mauve or magenta)
...

Now, this is very funny text, rather than serious - granted.

How much space did I spend on fur? A few lines.
How likely is it to attract the viewer's attention? My intention is that the art draw attention to it.

Hyperspace engines on asteroids? The captain would certainly care about the means of such an astounding technical feat.

What we have can be trimmed down, but the main thrust - the history of them vs the Kohr-Ah - totally belongs there, and I think the only bits that could go would be the personal tidbits.

Luke

[Gergely Sinkó]

> I had great dreams in those days, yes, great dreams!
> I knew that someday I would be vastly rich, wealthy enough to afford a large, well-fortified mansion.
> Surrounding my mansion would be vast tracts of land, through which I could slide at any time I wished!
> Of course, one can never be too sure that there aren't monsters hiding just behind the next bush
> so I would plant trees to climb at regular, easy to reach intervals.
> And being a Spathi of the World, I would know that some monsters climb trees, though often not well
> so I would have my servants place in each tree a basket of perfect stones
> not too heavy, not too light -- just the right size for throwing at monsters.
> I was thinking about what color the stones would be painted (aqua, mauve or magenta)
...

Now, this is very funny text, rather than serious - granted.

Point taken. These lines describe the personal aspirations of a typical Spathi. It's not just funny, but also a secondary clue about them as well. A clever way to bury collective psychological profile into personal context.
 

How much space did I spend on fur? A few lines.
How likely is it to attract the viewer's attention? My intention is that the art draw attention to it.

Fur is still just fur. The Shofixti also have fur, yet the Captain somehow didn't pay extra attention to it, and neither he did to other observable elements on the screen, like the joysticks or the radar screen. "Your hairs are very striking. What are they for?" sounds exactly like "Your joysticks are very striking. What are they for?". We humans don't ask such questions because we already have a not so impressive concept about fur (and joysticks), therefore we don't find getting an answer to that question a compelling objective in our life.

From the Shlthuk's or a human 3rd party's point of view it sounds odd too. Why should the Shlthuk describe a basic part of their physiology, which is apparently part of the asker too? (Unless Zelnick is bald with no eyebrows.) Why should they describe any part of their physiology? How would you answer to the question: "Your ears are very striking. What are they for?" The asker obviously knows about ears, therefore he has a concept about their function, so the only thing you can do is to raise an eyebrow and say "Well ... I guess ... hearing stuff." You would think that the asker is either an imbecile or is trolling you.

Also, the art might draw attention to certain things, but the presence of the question is the main incentive. If this adventure game would employ a freeform conversation system, I bet you that nobody would care to ask about their fur by their free will, with no sign or instruction to do that. However the question is there, giving the impression for the player that it reveals something that at least enrich gameplay in some form, yet it only reveals a concept about a possible biological function, apparently put there with the expectation that the writer gets a compliment or two for coming up with something that witty. Everyone know that it is, but no one likes a dialogue artificially controlled so the writer can convey his ideas. If you think this is important, then make it a relevant, functional part of gameplay.

A solution: say the Shlthuk has the not so odd custom to share data about themselves with other species. On Earth, small nations like Hungarians do this all the time. We don't like to be unknown and irrelevant, so we educate others. The Shlthuk may do this free of charge. The Melnorme would probably be embarassed about such act of giving, they would be very eager to compensate but wouldn't be sure how. Luckily the Shlthuk encountered us first and propose to give descriptions about themselves. If we go through all the questions, they also give us a large supply of biodata, which we can sell to the Melnorme.

Hyperspace engines on asteroids? The captain would certainly care about the means of such an astounding technical feat.

You indeed are interested about hyperspace engines on asteroids, after all you came up with this, but the Captain? Why? Asteroids rigged with engines requires components two of which are not any great mystery to humans: life support installation in zero-gravity environment (Ceres) and portable HS engine components (Androsynth). By the time the question is asked, both technologies were already known to humans. If the Captain is such a tech geek, he would have a hardon about almost all races' unique technology, far more astounding than flying asteroids. Yet in SC2 he didn't find any of those worth mentioning. Why is that? Because unique technologies are not a rare phenomenon in SC, yet our Captain is not interested in tech with no particular use for his mission. Even if he's interested in something, many times he needed to be instructed/informed about what he needs for certain effects, and how he has to operate them, since he can't find it out on his own. He's an end-user, an adventurer, and he's good at achieving his goals through investigation, but didn't ever show an extensive enthusiasm for tech/science. Say he's more like a young Kirk without formal military training, rather than a Janeway.

[drac...@aim.com]

Fair enough on the fur.

The HS engines on gargantuan objects is an entirely different matter. The Vindicator, at a mere 500 meters long, is considered super-huge. It's small compared to modern-day ships. The principal difference here is HS engines. You can build a colossal starbase, easy (if moderately expensive). Getting one into HS? Completely unachievable.

I see that I was trying o bridge a too-large inferential gap without explanation.

Luke

[Gergely Sinkó]

Fair enough on the fur.

I appreciate your openness.
 

The HS engines on gargantuan objects is an entirely different matter. The Vindicator, at a mere 500 meters long, is considered super-huge. It's small compared to modern-day ships. The principal difference here is HS engines. You can build a colossal starbase, easy (if moderately expensive). Getting one into HS? Completely unachievable.

The Androsynth escaped Earth on board space stations rigged with HS engines. Not sure if they were colossal, but surely they were big.
 

I see that I was trying o bridge a too-large inferential gap without explanation.

Luke