Exotics=Mmrnmhrm?
Kwayne
Just asking.
Kwayne
Being a cut-off part of this ultimate enemy might explain why they feel incomplete: according to the Ultronomicon article, "each Mmrnmhrm was created with an innate knowledge and purpose, though none have ever revealed what that purpose may be". Perhaps they don't reveal this to others because even for them it's problematic to understand how to be integrated in an entity that apparently doesn't exist. The Mother Ark AI might have closer connection to the truth but it was shut down, and the only thing we're left with are the speculations of Hayes and other SC officers.
Ever wondered why it is that Mmrnmhrm X-Forms are very "human" designs? What does a purely mechanical species care about painting yellow stripes on the hull and building cockpits?
How comes that a mechanical race with the supposed purpose of setting up planets for colonization builds ships that transforms between two combat forms?
These questions lead me to this wild assumption that the Mmrnmhrm, aside from having a hidden purpose, have also hidden functionality, which is masqueraded by a protocol diving the Mmrnmhrm to maintain peaceful relationships with whoever they can and try to mimic their technological designs and cultural customs. This protocol lives until the connection to the "Core" entity (our ultimate enemy) is restored, at which time the Mmrnmhrm ships transform into their true form which is capable of accomplishing the agenda of the Core entity... like pushing a hard reset on every civilization in the sector.
Of course if the Mmrnmhrm are the Exotics, then the Chmmr having a Mmrnmhrm component in them might also explain the Chmmr illness. With the Core gradually regaining control, the emergence of the hidden Mmrnmhrm functionality cause greater and greater confusion in the Chmmr psyche. Even after the paranoia of the Chmmr is treated, they are still unable to assist the NAFS in the last battle as the "Call of the Core" (might be a good subtite) becomes so strong they have to muster up all their strength resisting it.
So this time the NAFS has to prove that it can stand on it's own without Avatar muscle, which might be an important step forward for the New Alliance on a historical scale.
Dan Trivates
fit the paradigm. The exotics' biology seems somewhat similar to the
Shadows from Babylon 5. - They are not machines.
Mechanical races are not usually created for "gardening the galaxy"
with black holes. It seems more likely that one of the Milieu races
(or even the Precursors) created the Mmrnmhrm as planeteering tools
and the ship designs would have been a type of mimicry of their
creator race's space planes or something.
I like the idea that not all of the Mmrnmhrm were defeated in the last
war. It goes to show that no race - no matter how powerful, cannot
dominate all sentient life in the galaxy - that there are bound to be
some imperfections in this sort of scheme and sooner or later, a
successful revolution will occur. As such, it may be entirely feasible
that Mmrnmhrm scout ships roam the ENTIRE galaxy and show up in about
the same density as Melnorme round super giants, in higher numbers
near the mother ark.
This might lend itself to the player being able to work with the
Mmrnmhrm to create new starbases and colony words for the Shofixti -
playing your cards exactly right, the Mmrnmhrm help the Shofixti gain
vast numbers just before the end of the game and the final battle with
the Exotics (just like the Pkunk and Yehat showing up at the Sa-Matra
battle). You would hopelessly lose that battle were it not for a
buttload of Shofixti showing up and detonating their glory devices en
masse, in unison.
That seems a more noble purpose for the Mmrnmhrm - IMHO.
-Captain Trivates
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Kwayne
From what I've read of the Exotics' development so far, this doesn't
fit the paradigm. The exotics' biology seems somewhat similar to the
Shadows from Babylon 5. - They are not machines.
Well the idea itself is about replacing the older Exotics concept you might have read. I'm daring to write an alternative because none of the written concept is actually implemented and some (IMO) rightful concerns came up about the overly abstract nature of the entire Exotics idea.
Mechanical races are not usually created for "gardening the galaxy"
with black holes. It seems more likely that one of the Milieu races
(or even the Precursors) created the Mmrnmhrm as planeteering tools
and the ship designs would have been a type of mimicry of their
creator race's space planes or something.
I like the idea that not all of the Mmrnmhrm were defeated in the last
war. It goes to show that no race - no matter how powerful, cannot
dominate all sentient life in the galaxy - that there are bound to be
some imperfections in this sort of scheme and sooner or later, a
successful revolution will occur. As such, it may be entirely feasible
that Mmrnmhrm scout ships roam the ENTIRE galaxy and show up in about
the same density as Melnorme round super giants, in higher numbers
near the mother ark.
This might lend itself to the player being able to work with the
Mmrnmhrm to create new starbases and colony words for the Shofixti -
playing your cards exactly right, the Mmrnmhrm help the Shofixti gain
vast numbers just before the end of the game and the final battle with
the Exotics (just like the Pkunk and Yehat showing up at the Sa-Matra
battle). You would hopelessly lose that battle were it not for a
buttload of Shofixti showing up and detonating their glory devices en
masse, in unison.That seems a more noble purpose for the Mmrnmhrm - IMHO.
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Dan Trivates
> Well the idea itself is about replacing the older Exotics concept you might
> have read. I'm daring to write an alternative because none of the written
> concept is actually implemented and some (IMO) rightful concerns came up
> about the overly abstract nature of the entire Exotics idea.
To tell you the truth, I was 100% sold on the old Exotics concept.
It's dark, mysterious, "exotic", bold, yet the perpetrators of the
"evil" have absolutely no evil intention and instead see what they do
as 'good'. It's genius, you almost feel sorry for the greater being. I
remember in SC2, I felt sorry for the Ur-Quan. I knew I had to destroy
them but I felt sorry for them!!! It was a real emotional
roller-coaster that story!
Leads to the game being won by a strategy that is non-destructive but
rather more compromising. If you recall, Star Control II was won by
destroying a secret weapon, not a full-scale assault on the Ur-Quan
forces.
I like that type of thinking. It is very progressive.
> As I said everything I wrote was in total disregard of the original Exotics
> description. I think the planeteering tool idea would be overused with the
> Mycon around (who are canonically Precursor planeteering tools), so if we
> take granted that our ultimate enemy (now called Exotics) is a mechanical
> entity (sort of machine-god like Unicron) then the Mmrnmhrm could be it's
> extension -- similarly to how the Orz race is merely the fingers of the Orz
> (which I see as a "dimension with attitude").
I do think that the origin of the Mmrnmhrm merits discussion but I
highly doubt they were created for a destructive purpose, else they
would have joined the Ur-Quan, don't you think?
The Mmrnmhrm being bad guys is just not sitting well with me. Makes me
kind of want to ... throw up. If I had purchased this game and found
out that's what the developers did with the Mmrnmhrm, I think I would
experience a disappointment similar to finding out that the Precursors
were six-legged voluntarily-dumb space cows.
Seriously - they can't be bad guys. It doesn't fit the canon.
>
> I'm for the similar idea that there are multiple Mother Ark "projects"
> running galaxy-wide, whatever their purpose is. In my theory it's something
> that destroys civilizations for some reason (didn't figure out yet.)
NO!!!! The very name "Mother Ark" implies that it was sent out to be a
race-preservation means. Some terrified, barely hyper-space capable
race foresaw their planet's doom and sent those machines out to help
them settle more worlds in a hurry. Then the Dnyarri happened. Maybe
they were sent out BECAUSE of the Dnyarri - think about it - how do
you psychically compel a machine? You don't. Maybe that race
originally sent the Mother Ark AWAY from the Sentient Milieu's SOI and
out of the reach of the Ur-Quan. They've been slowly moving back now
that the battle is over...
>
> Not sure about this, the Shofixti puzzle is pretty much solved with the
> involvement of the Xen-Weyi already.
It appears I need more study. I don't remember the Xen-Weyi in the
Wiki. That thing needs a serious overhaul.
Kwayne
> Well the idea itself is about replacing the older Exotics concept you might
> have read. I'm daring to write an alternative because none of the written
> concept is actually implemented and some (IMO) rightful concerns came up
> about the overly abstract nature of the entire Exotics idea.To tell you the truth, I was 100% sold on the old Exotics concept.
It's dark, mysterious, "exotic", bold, yet the perpetrators of the
"evil" have absolutely no evil intention and instead see what they do
as 'good'. It's genius, you almost feel sorry for the greater being. I
remember in SC2, I felt sorry for the Ur-Quan. I knew I had to destroy
them but I felt sorry for them!!! It was a real emotional
roller-coaster that story!
The problem is that you are able to grasp the story of the Ur-Quan if you speak to them, while the Exotics as written are very hard to relate to, as they are on a completely different level of existence. You cannot make much of an emotional rollercoaster out of a conversation with a behemoth that is about to crush you without even noticing.
Leads to the game being won by a strategy that is non-destructive but
rather more compromising. If you recall, Star Control II was won by
destroying a secret weapon, not a full-scale assault on the Ur-Quan
forces.
I like that type of thinking. It is very progressive.
> As I said everything I wrote was in total disregard of the original Exotics
> description. I think the planeteering tool idea would be overused with the
> Mycon around (who are canonically Precursor planeteering tools), so if we
> take granted that our ultimate enemy (now called Exotics) is a mechanical
> entity (sort of machine-god like Unicron) then the Mmrnmhrm could be it's
> extension -- similarly to how the Orz race is merely the fingers of the Orz
> (which I see as a "dimension with attitude").I do think that the origin of the Mmrnmhrm merits discussion but I
highly doubt they were created for a destructive purpose, else they
would have joined the Ur-Quan, don't you think?
Also what is this logic with destructive purpose= evil = join the Ur-Quan?
The Mmrnmhrm being bad guys is just not sitting well with me. Makes me
kind of want to ... throw up. If I had purchased this game and found
out that's what the developers did with the Mmrnmhrm, I think I would
experience a disappointment similar to finding out that the Precursors
were six-legged voluntarily-dumb space cows.
Seriously - they can't be bad guys. It doesn't fit the canon.
> I'm for the similar idea that there are multiple Mother Ark "projects"
> running galaxy-wide, whatever their purpose is. In my theory it's something
> that destroys civilizations for some reason (didn't figure out yet.)NO!!!! The very name "Mother Ark" implies that it was sent out to be a
race-preservation means. Some terrified, barely hyper-space capable
race foresaw their planet's doom and sent those machines out to help
them settle more worlds in a hurry. Then the Dnyarri happened. Maybe
they were sent out BECAUSE of the Dnyarri - think about it - how do
you psychically compel a machine? You don't. Maybe that race
originally sent the Mother Ark AWAY from the Sentient Milieu's SOI and
out of the reach of the Ur-Quan. They've been slowly moving back now
that the battle is over...
Explanation: the "Mother Ark" term was created by the Mmrnmhrm bots after the Ark was shut down, long after the connection to the Core was lost along with the information about the true purpose of the Mmrnmhrm. The term implies that the Mmrnmhrm bots were "born" from the factory of the Ark.
Of course your theory is okay, but I'm not the guy you should convince about using it.
> Not sure about this, the Shofixti puzzle is pretty much solved with the
> involvement of the Xen-Weyi already.It appears I need more study. I don't remember the Xen-Weyi in the
Wiki. That thing needs a serious overhaul.
Dan Trivates
> about your ideology than canon.
I admit, you may be right. I may be deluded by the fact that the
Mmrnmhrm have been good guys with good intentions so far as the canon
can be interpreted, and my own ideology lends itself to expecting this
paradigm to continue.
Then again, often a good story promises that a boy meets his hero or a
pirate finds the fountain of youth and we find out that the hero
smokes crack or the fountain of youth requires the blood sacrifice of
a loved one.
That might be an exquisite plot device: We find out the Mmrnmhrm
aren't gone. We're excited! We're ecstatic! Then... they turn on us...
wtf?
This idea is growing on me - but I still want to see the Exotics in
the story as they were originally described. The idea of the starmap
changing as they f*** with gravity was something to which I was verily
looking forward. Why not have two antagonists? SC2 had like... three.
The Ur-Quan with their Battle Thralls, the Kohr-Ah and the Druuge.
So: The Exotics are gardening the galaxy and wreaking havoc with black
holes and other gravity manipulations, the Mmrnmhrm are trying to
"assimilate" everyone like they did with the Chenjesu - perhaps they
want to integrate all biological natures into a single entity with
which the Exotics would have to reckon? (A benevolent purpose to a
seemingly malevolent practice? = yummy yummy plot candy) and of
course, the Lurg are just being f***heads. Then there's the turmoil we
could cause with the Baul/Foon-Foon and the Faz vs. Melnorme. This
game promises to be quite epic with regards to all the trouble Captain
could get himself into.
Perhaps we could "sacrifice" the Spathi to find out these weird
intentions of the Mmrnmhrm? They show up, convince the Spathi that
they will "defend them" if they are allowed under the slave shield
with them and a year later, Slave Shield comes down and we have a
bunch of cyborg-spathi roaming the galaxy talking about "the
liberation" referring to the destruction of their fear of everything.
They start attacking Kohr-Ah ships and forcing them into assimilation
too. Well we like that.. .but then they start with the Yehat. The
Yehat can put up a bit of a fight so they could be stayed until
Captain figures out what to do.
So I'm liking your suggestion now - but can we keep the Exotics as they were?
Dan Trivates
resources on that gem of a world upon which they live, should we
perhaps, expand their sphere of influence by 100 points per year or
something (every month, its radius increases by 000.8)?
Chris Pearce
The purpose of this idea is in part to say a last goodbye to to the Mmrnmhrm. With part of them merged with the Chenjesu I think their presence is quite redundant, so eliminating them as an ultimate enemy might be a good closure.
Ever wondered why it is that Mmrnmhrm X-Forms are very "human" designs? What does a purely mechanical species care about painting yellow stripes on the hull and building cockpits?
How comes that a mechanical race with the supposed purpose of setting up planets for colonization builds ships that transforms between two combat forms?
There's no reason to believe that the *only* ship the Mmrnmhrm have is the X-form, it's just the only ship of theirs which was relevant to include in SC1, so the only ship of theirs in the canon.
Of course if the Mmrnmhrm are the Exotics, then the Chmmr having a Mmrnmhrm component in them might also explain the Chmmr illness.
With the Core gradually regaining control, the emergence of the hidden Mmrnmhrm functionality cause greater and greater confusion in the Chmmr psyche. Even after the paranoia of the Chmmr is treated, they are still unable to assist the NAFS in the last battle as the "Call of the Core" (might be a good subtite) becomes so strong they have to muster up all their strength resisting it.
So this time the NAFS has to prove that it can stand on it's own without Avatar muscle, which might be an important step forward for the New Alliance on a historical scale.
So requiring the player to find a way to destroy the Chmmr (possibly restoring the Chenjesu in the process?) would open up much more scope for compelling sequels.
I'd (still) prefer to dump the stellar-gardening-hive-mind Exotics as the principal antagonists. They cannot be related to, and are far too abstract. Following this plot idea, seems like it would create a more compelling and approachable story.
Chris Pearce.
Kwayne
The purpose of this idea is in part to say a last goodbye to to the Mmrnmhrm. With part of them merged with the Chenjesu I think their presence is quite redundant, so eliminating them as an ultimate enemy might be a good closure.
I wrote much of the Mmrnmhrm plot, and I was explicitly trying to resurrect them since I missed then so much in SC2.
I missed the Androsynth so I know the feeling, however I'm worried about our urge to play Jesus on crack and grab every single chance to revive something. The Mmrnmhrm we knew are part of the Chmmr now and whatever remained is only a cute, yet woeful leftover. Even so I'd say the Mmrnmhrm might have many Arks so the race isn't gone, only the contingent we knew became something else. In a later episode -- played in an unknown territory perhaps -- the Mmrnmhrm could be one of the familiar faces, even though they have no recollection about humans or the Alliance.
(nevertheless they felt the "Call of the Core" and suffer the consequences, if I may go on the line of the Core idea)
Ever wondered why it is that Mmrnmhrm X-Forms are very "human" designs? What does a purely mechanical species care about painting yellow stripes on the hull and building cockpits?No one said the Mmrnmhrm's ships were (or weren't for that matter!) designed by the Mmrnmhrm themselves.
I didn't say either (or did?), but it's unlikely that the creators of the Mmrnmhrm designed the X-Forms to be a functional part of the Mmrnmhrm. It's more likely that the Mmrnmhrm took this design for themselves, though not necessarily from their own creators. I'm thinking along the lines of the Transformers here.
How comes that a mechanical race with the supposed purpose of setting up planets for colonization builds ships that transforms between two combat forms?Because the universe is full of bad things, and a craft with more flexible defensive capabilities is more likely to successfully defend their colonies for their masters.
There's no reason to believe that the *only* ship the Mmrnmhrm have is the X-form, it's just the only ship of theirs which was relevant to include in SC1, so the only ship of theirs in the canon.
Perhaps I'm too much sticking to the one-race-one-ship routine.
Of course if the Mmrnmhrm are the Exotics, then the Chmmr having a Mmrnmhrm component in them might also explain the Chmmr illness.
The Mmrnmhrm display far too much empathy to be agents of the Exotics's (stellar gardening) hive mind. Plus, these Exotics (as written) aren't even supposed to recognize, let alone value sentience, autonomous or otherwise. How could something which doesn't recognize sentience create sentience?
So this time the NAFS has to prove that it can stand on it's own without Avatar muscle, which might be an important step forward for the New Alliance on a historical scale.With the Core gradually regaining control, the emergence of the hidden Mmrnmhrm functionality cause greater and greater confusion in the Chmmr psyche. Even after the paranoia of the Chmmr is treated, they are still unable to assist the NAFS in the last battle as the "Call of the Core" (might be a good subtite) becomes so strong they have to muster up all their strength resisting it.
I like where you're heading with this. The Chmmr seem so powerful that authors (SC3's authors, us) tend towards finding ways to disable them (i.e. the SC3 authors split the Chmmr, we're making them sick) for purposes of making their story of the NAFS's struggle against some other enemy more challenging and thus interesting.
So requiring the player to find a way to destroy the Chmmr (possibly restoring the Chenjesu in the process?) would open up much more scope for compelling sequels.
I think the conclusion of any Star Control "episode" need to bring a change of historical importance, and the full chain of these episodes is the epic-over-epic history about the development of the Alliance, bringing closure to the tragedy of the Milieu and the victims of the age of Ur-Quan domination, and the final solution of Precursor mystery.
I wouldn't destroy the Chmmr but would rather make them retire to a less action-oriented role, so the NAFS look and feel less dependent of them. Reviving the Chenjesu would only mean that Star Control is a universe without permanent consequences, plus it would probably spoil the Alliance back into the immature, idyllic state when the de facto leaders were trustworthy and benevolent father figures.
Dan Trivates
then, through their "enlightened" and "benevolent" intentions, they
begin slave-shielding peoples who have acted against them as a means
of self-preservation and dictating the actions of those who helped
them.
One overlord power defeated, another emerges. History repeats itself.
It's very future-noir.
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Kwayne
That might be an exquisite plot device: We find out the Mmrnmhrm aren't gone. We're excited! We're ecstatic! Then... they turn on us... wtf?
With such basis buildt up, when the Core gains control over them in the end, they might have a last chance to say goodbye and say sorry for their powerlessness. They enjoyed being friends with the Alliance, but they know the next moment they won't be themselves anymore.
This idea is growing on me - but I still want to see the Exotics in the story as they were originally described. The idea of the starmap changing as they f*** with gravity was something to which I was verily
looking forward.
Why not have two antagonists? SC2 had like... three. The Ur-Quan with their Battle Thralls, the Kohr-Ah and the Druuge.
And I did't count in the Kohr-Ah-Rath now because I think their role is that of pawns.
Dan Trivates
what if the Core has something to do with an ancient race's attempts
to contact them and reason with them? Thus, regaining control of the
Core would give one the ability to talk some sense into the Exotics.
There is an "ExoticCommunicationTool" described in the wiki.
henh?! eh? what you think?
-Captain Trivates
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Kwayne
I see your point about the Exotics being all show and no play. But
what if the Core has something to do with an ancient race's attempts
to contact them and reason with them? Thus, regaining control of the
Core would give one the ability to talk some sense into the Exotics.There is an "ExoticCommunicationTool" described in the wiki.
Dan Trivates
it. That's what Levies are for.
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Kwayne
But what if the Core has something to do with an ancient race's attempts to contact them and reason with them? Thus, regaining control of the Core would give one the ability to talk some sense into the Exotics.
[...] reasoning with an abstract thing [=Exotics] is pointless in the first place. It's like trying to convince a tsunami not to wash your house away.
Trivates:
Can't reason with a Tsunami but you can engineer a shoreline against it. That's what Levies are for.
I'm afraid I can't follow your line of reasoning.
Jaakko Seppälä
Having the Mmrnmhrm be the Exotics is an interesting idea, but
frankly, I don't want to make the Mmrnmhrm the baddies for two
reasons:
a) We have a good and complete storyline/subplot combo for the
Mmrnmhrm & Chmmr 'illness', and I don't want to rip that apart.
b) It would feel ...wrong... to have Mmrnmhrm evil. For some reason,
even though they're quite-a-completely mechanical, robotic beings,
they've always felt sympathethic to me. Dunno, it'd be almost the same
to have the Pkunk be evil. One strong contributing point to this is
that the Chenjesu are pretty much the 'wisest' race there is. It would
ring odd indeed if they went to merge with the ultimate baddie-race
and not realize anything at all was wrong.
Also, let's keep the Mrns away from the shofixti subplot (as was
suggested in one mail at some point) - we indeed have the Xen-weyi and
a number of other players there already.
The Exotics are still a bit detached from the other parts of the game
world. They need improving upon. But making them be the Mmrnmhrm is
not the way to go.
Jaakko
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Kwayne
Having the Mmrnmhrm be the Exotics is an interesting idea, but frankly, I don't want to make the Mmrnmhrm the baddies for two reasons:
a) We have a good and complete storyline/subplot combo for the Mmrnmhrm & Chmmr 'illness', and I don't want to rip that apart.
I don't want to rip the Chmmr puzzle apart either, and I'm also worried about the possible conflict, and I have to admit I didn't find a solution yet. This is one of the greates problems, but I didn't give up yet!
b) It would feel ...wrong... to have Mmrnmhrm evil.
The idea is a bit more complicated than that. They're more like the victims of fate.
For some reason, even though they're quite-a-completely mechanical, robotic beings, they've always felt sympathethic to me.
My intent was also to introduce them as sympathetic as possible. (Portal2 is quite inspiring when it comes to cute robots)
It adds to the impact when their free will is taken from them, only to reveal their purpose which is that of a machine*
The thing becomes more tragic (tears, please!) when it turns out that they need to die to save their old friends. **
Good news is that even though they sacrifice themselves, their brothers will be free forever -- however the Captain has to get acquainted with them as total strangers in a sequel.
* not necessarily evil, but kind of bad... like ripping a large chunk of Hyperspace apart, making every HS engine useless in the whole sector ... it doesn't kill or enslave anybody but has serious consequences to a galactic community like the NAFS (infrastructure falling apart, friends becoming separated and such)
** this doesn't necessarily require them to turn on us, the two events amplify each other independently
Dunno, it'd be almost the same to have the Pkunk be evil.
The Pkunk are more predictable and less mysterious, we already socialized with them. It would be absurd to make them our enemies because we already kind of understand their potential in a story. But the Mmrnmhrm is a big unknown, and it would be more interesting plot-wise to exploit their unknown-ness in an unpredictable direction, which is not narrowed down by the black and white concepts of "good" and "evil".
One strong contributing point to this is that the Chenjesu are pretty much the 'wisest' race there is. It would ring odd indeed if they went to merge with the ultimate baddie-race and not realize anything at all was wrong.
They didn't realize it because the Mmrnmhm didn't realize it either. The "malicious" software is not part of their imprinted AI, but that of an other machine who has the core position in the hierarchical network.