Engineers - Think Tank

[Dan Regan]

Alright, here's a forum for discussion on various ideas in the
engineering department. This is mainly for the Engineers, but anybody
with a creative idea is welcome to chime in.

[zjea...@att.net]

From what we got at the meeting, im thinking we have a number of
technologies to look at:
Energy Generation Tech:
1. Solar Panels
2. Wind power from fans, etc.
3. The "Grey Water" system, a method of reusing water
4. Thermal Panels.
5. Bio power?

Energy Reduction Tech:
1. Motion sensor light switches
2. Insulation improvements
3. Thermostat tech: i.e. messing with thermostats to control the heat?

Not sure what else, but i think we need to integrate both into our
plan to get the most out of this building. If yall have any other
ideas, add them and ill try to see if there are any links for this
stuff.

Im so pumped for this project! Woo!
-Zach

[Dan Regan]

Okay, I uploaded the survey, the profit and loss chart, and a
breakdown of the ComEd electricity bills. It has everything including
the average temperatures for the month so we can see why the energy is
being used most.

It seems the bill is substantially higher in the warmer months than
the cold ones. Is the heat provided by the natural gas? (if we've gone
over that, I've forgotten)

[ali...@sbcglobal.net]

I'm pretty sure it was, but I'm not totally the one to go with that.
Anyway, I wanted to state not to discount the possible use of water
runoff from the roof as well...not necessarily a completely practical
application, but it might be possible...Anyway, to keep from further
messing with the engineers, I'm going back to design stuff...

[Dan Regan]

Here's the site for Home Power Magazine:
http://www.homepower.com/home/

and some clips and ideas from sites about making houses more efficient
that we can look into at greater depth:

- "When using a furnace, specify a unit using an ECM motor; they draw
just 25 percent of the power used by a standard blower."
- Solar water heating
- If we're looking at installed solar systems, a full array is around
$15,000. (wake up call)
- http://smartenergyliving.org/

- "Unnecessary cooling wastes energy and money. On sunny days, close
shades or blinds to decrease solar heating. Set your air conditioner's
controls to cool your apartment to about 78° F , and turn your air
conditioner off when you leave your apartment. If you install a low-
cost timer, you can set it to turn the air conditioner back on a half
hour before you return, thereby saving money without sacrificing
comfort. When outside temperatures drop in the evening, turn off the
air conditioner and open a window. Keep the air conditioner's filter
and cooling fins clean for efficient operation."
- "you can make the most of what you get by moving obstructing
furniture and draperies away from radiators, baseboard units, and air
registers. Placing an insulated aluminum foil reflector behind each
radiator will also make your apartment warmer."
- "Consider installing low-cost caulking, weatherstripping, or
interior plastic storm windows, and cover or remove air conditioners
for the winter."

[Dan Regan]

second batch was from http://www.dps.state.ny.us/aptdwell.html

[Iwo Jima]

http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/

Yeah, I just found this site which specializes in Solar powered
Heaters and air conditioners. The air conditioning part caught my eye
because that seemed to be a concern at our meeting.

There are two hiccups about these systems I'd just like to get out
there.
One; I'm not sure, but I think the cooling system (and maybe the
heating system) need to have an extended pipe system throughout the
building in order for the exchange in temperature to occur. I need to
e-mail Ted Lowe and ask him whether such a pipe system is absolutely
necessary. Ted is an wheaton resident with solar and thermal panels,
and tons of information about this stuff. His heating system, as I
remembered it, simply took heat from the heated water and shed it
directly into the air ducts in his home. He did not need that
extensive pipe system, the heat traveled to all parts of his house as
it normally would.
And two; of course the site didn't put any prices down, so i'm
expecting these sophisticated systems to cost a lot. But let's
remember, temperature control seemed to be the biggest problem in the
apartment, and it could be very easily handled with no use of a gas
furnace.

[MedBed]

Here is the natural gas / electric breakdown for each apartment:

Natural Gas takes care of:
-Furnace Heat
-Hot Water Heaters
-Kitchen Stoves
-Clothes Dryer

Electricity takes care of:
-Air Conditioning
-Lights (obviously)
-All other Appliances

I hope that helps.

OCMC

[MedBed]

Team,

Just came across an interesting blog. Thought this might get your
wheels turning:

http://www.ecofriend.org/entry/eco-delight-15-unconventional-wind-turbine-designs/

Ciao for now,
OCMC

[Dan Regan]

Okay, I'm sick from school today so I'll be researching.

I'm going to look into tankless water heaters. A water heater tank
uses energy to keep water warm 24/7. Tankless water heaters warm the
water as its needed, obviously saving energy. However, this and a
solar water heater would be mutually exclusive, as the solar water
heater relies on a tank.

here's one good site: http://www.tanklesswaterheaterguide.com/

For one example, I found one waterheater that has a 92% thermal
efficiency, natural gas heater. its about $1,700, and there are
smaller ones from $600 - $1000.

[Dan Regan]

Okay, I found a cool site with small things to help us save energy.

http://www.greenhome.com/

There are LED light bulbs priced at 25 dollars. This would be a great
switch for several reasons: it uses less than 2 watts, lasts 60,000
hours (about 40x an incandescent and 6x a compact flourescent,) and
all in all would cost 4x less than CFL.
they also have 2 year warranties and dont have mercury. The reason
they run so efficiently is that they dont generate much heat and dont
have weak filaments like incandescent. CFL bulbs, actually emit light
primarily in the UV frequencies, and so much energy is lost in non-
visible light.

here's a site with a spreadsheet that illustrates the efficiency of
LED's:

http://www.productdose.com/article.php?article_id=1142

and the bulb itself:

http://www.greenhome.com/products/lighting/light_bulbs/112735/

[Dan Regan]

I found a site with actual prices and kits, and it looks like a Grid-
Tie system (sans battery) can run from 1500 to 15000, depending on how
big you want it. The starter kit, which includes one panel and all
necessary electric equipment, is around 1500.

This is good news, as a Grid-Tie system would actually be affordable.
here's the site.

http://shop.solardirect.com/index.php?cPath=23_161_164

[zjea...@att.net]

okay well sorry about that, the post above accidentally sent itself
for no reason. i cant delete it either :( so lets try this again...

Floor 1
total kWh = 29998.776
Average kWh/mo = 2499.898

Floor 2
total kWh = 19561.56
Average kWh/mo = 1630.13

Floor 3
total kWh = 28905.96
Average kWh/mo = 2408.83

I will try sending my full work in a pdf or something, but i just
wanted to give you the numbers

[zjea...@att.net]

It seems that from the numbers ive seen, the gas energy is
significantly higher (4x?) than electrical energy used. i think we
should find ways to reduce that energy since it would seem to be one
of the easiest/cheapest ways of making the building more sustainable.
So dan's tankless water heater, controlled/more efficient furnaces,
etc may be a better investment than producing our own energy from
sources like solar, which for the same amount of money may yield less
energy. also, it seems we havent touched too much on wind energy, so
ill research some of that.

[zjea...@att.net]

Wind energy links! There are a good number of them so ill list them
all here. These are potential vendors, as well, but they are mostly
similar.

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/resources/faqs.php
http://www.cleanfieldenergy.com/site/sub/p_we_overview.php
http://www.inhabitat.com/2008/05/08/swift-ultra-quiet-rooftop-wind-turbine/
http://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/vertical_axis_wind_turbines.htm

Overall, the products work...but they are HUGE. the most promising
ones are also expensive. either way, see what you make of them.

[Iwo Jima]

Good point. But you can't forget the possibilities of using solar
energy to heat water in the home, and also provide very efficient
space heating (and even air conditioning if we were really serious).

http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/thermal-how-it-works/closed-loop-solar.html
http://www.solarpanelsplus.com/solar-space-heating/

These two diagrams show a solar water heating set-up, and a space
heating setup, both of which use special panels that are sectioned off
into tubes for a greater heat absorption area even when the sun is at
lower angles. I haven't learned all of the logistics about these
things, but I have seen them at work. Back to Ted Lowe, he uses a
space heater much like the one pictured in the diagram, and really
never has to worry about running out of warmth. He actually had a
thermometer showing the temperature from inside his water heater ( or
I think it was just a water container) that maintained a hefty 200+
degrees.

And I also don't want to give up right away on plain solar panels
either. There are so many different types, newer and cheaper, coming
out everyday. I'd actually been looking at a model by "Uni-solar" that
contain Amorphous Silicon (A-si). It's thinner, lighter, has no glass,
and uses a lot less silicon than the normal Crystalline Silicon (C-
si).

I'm still doing research on the stuff, it does have a few kinks, but
is definitely a possibility. I've printed out a Data sheet for two A-
si panels (68W and 136W). here's the URL:

http://inovateussolar.com/Products.php

That site also has a list of rebates and incentives for Green energy
products that looks pretty interesting.

And is Chicago windy enough for Turbines????

[Iwo Jima]

How many of these turbines do you reckon we can fit in the back area
near the garage? Because the annual Energy Output (kWh) for the
skystream turbine is a staggering ~3000kWh. That pays off a month's
worth of energy for floors 1or 3. Someone please check my math, I want
to be wrong. I checked a table; Chicago's average annual wind speed is
just over 10 mph. That makes the monthly energy output at about 240~~.

This realization blows my mind. We've got a lot of work to do. And
does anyone know what that toll free number is we gotta call
tonight????

[Iwo Jima]

Wow. Nevermind. Windstream Wind turbine is 6,000 bucks.

[Iwo Jima]

Alright fellas,

I think its time we make a new Think Tank. This one is about 7 pages
back thanks to all this twitter, pun intended...

And just wondering, but how is the research coming on the turbine
invertors, etc. I'm gonna start that tonight and continue tomorrow
and so on. Anyone have anything interesting?

[Dan Regan]

my plan exactly. I've been really busy for the last week or so, but I've
got time tonight to check some stuff out. I'm going to look into some
inverter stuff and the calculations for LED lights and the small stuff.
I'll post my findings later tonight.

[Iwo Jima]

can anyone enlighten me on what kind of wattage this turbine we're
thinking about getting produces? Im pretty sure the inverter needs to
be up to par with it, and I have no idea what to par it up with...

[Ryan McIntyre]

I think we were aiming at 2kw...

Ryan McIntyre
Scrub Shuffler
MedBed, Inc.

910 W Van Buren St #146
Chicago, IL 60607

P: 312.391.2853
F: 312.893.2042
E: ry...@beds4meds.com
W: www.beds4meds.com

[Dan Regan]

Okay, so I'm looking at some sites for LED bulbs, and I found this
great site that sells all forms of LED bulbs with prices ranging from
15 to 90 bucks a pop.

http://www.besthomeledlighting.com

also, just so we find some reference for the numbers:

- at a daily activity level of 8 hours, a 50,000 hour bulb will last
over 17 years!
- the hallway lights, which may be on 4 hours or less: 34+ years.

an average bulb price is something around 25 bucks, which is:

- 0.05 cents per hour of lighting time (per lifetime of bulb)
- $1.47 per year at 8 hours a day -or- less than $0.73 per year at 4
hours a day

as compared to compact flourescent, 30 watt priced at $3.79 with
10,000 hours:

- 3.4 years at 8 hours a day -or- 6.8 years at 4 hours a day
- 0.04 cents per hour of lighting time (per lifetime of bulb)
- $1.12 per year at 8 hours a day -or- $0.56 per year at 4 hours a day


They are quite comparable as far as price, without even mentioning the
cost of use; Which, in case you were wondering, an LED light is about
4x as efficient as a CFL, more than making up the difference.