tabular inside figure

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Alex Jordan

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Oct 28, 2022, 9:24:51 PM10/28/22
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I'm trying to clean up ORCCA before I ask my colleagues to begin
making contributions this year. A lot of schema violations that I have
right now come from this kind of thing:

figure
caption
tabular

Once upon a time, that was schema-compliant (I think) but right now it
is not. At the moment, I'm hesitant to change it all to:

table
title
tabular

if there is a chance this is still in flux.

Also, sometimes the book has a:
figure
caption
sidebyside
image
tabular

And it feels off that these tabulars are legally attached to a figure
caption, but others would have to be attached to a table title.

So my question is, is this schema issue about tabulars settled?

David Farmer

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Oct 28, 2022, 9:33:53 PM10/28/22
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I can't answer the question of whether it is settled,
but I think it is a mistake to ban tabular as a child of
figure.

There is the classic form of table, which tends to be
a large grid of numbers. Style guides make recommendations
about that case, and such a tabular should be in a table.

Then there is the form which is common in math textbooks:
two columns of numbers representing input and output
values of a function, for example.

I think the latter (but not the former) is reasonable as a
child of figure. I also thought this was discussed extensively and
we reached an agreement on that. But, I may be mistaken.
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Sean Fitzpatrick

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Oct 28, 2022, 10:02:22 PM10/28/22
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I had to change all the occurrences of this in APEX this summer when the schema changed. At the time Rob said there was no going back on this.

I liked the aesthetics a bit better before but I think there is some technical reason for this?

kcri...@gmail.com

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Oct 29, 2022, 9:06:33 AM10/29/22
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See 
On Friday, October 28, 2022 at 9:33:53 PM UTC-4 far...@aimath.org wrote:

I can't answer the question of whether it is settled,
but I think it is a mistake to ban tabular as a child of
figure.

There is the classic form of table, which tends to be
a large grid of numbers. Style guides make recommendations
about that case, and such a tabular should be in a table.

Then there is the form which is common in math textbooks:
two columns of numbers representing input and output
values of a function, for example.

I think the latter (but not the former) is reasonable as a
child of figure. I also thought this was discussed extensively and
we reached an agreement on that. But, I may be mistaken.

I agree, but I can't find the discussion you are referring to.  It was never quite clear to me what the rationale was for not observing this distinction (perhaps technical, as Sean suggests).   The fact that it keeps coming up is suggestive that a bit more clarification on the rationale for banning David's use case could be helpful.  For reference, here are the current discussions that seemed most relevant regarding this change from the BDFL:


Mitch Keller

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Oct 31, 2022, 9:33:46 AM10/31/22
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I would like to echo what David is saying here. I think it is a mistake to force a tabular that needs to be cross referenced to be a child of table, since in a mathematics textbook, many to most of these are not CMOS tables. A table in a sidebyside with a figure looks ghastly, since the title goes above the tabular and the caption goes below the image (or whatever is in the figure).

I don’t see any reason why we cannot have tabular as a child of figure, and the prior exchanges linked in a later message don’t really give any explanation other than a statement about banning table from figure is the last word on the matter, which I think would be unfortunate and a mistake.
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Rob Beezer

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Dec 5, 2022, 1:51:24 PM12/5/22
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I've migrated this over to pretext-dev.
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